MTH DCS system

I had it on our layout and it worked fine.

https://youtu.be/cuI6YRH9QHU

We've used DCS since they first came out and though there were bumps along the road, it has worked pretty well. We got ours even before the California dealers got theirs due to the diligence of our dealer back then (shout-out to Sean Marchev, who picked them up from MTH directly and shipped them out via FedEx). Some things we've learned over the years:

• "Passive Mode" wiring of the layout is better for the health of the TIU.
• Remember, this is a computer-style packet network command structure, so you need to make sure your layout wiring is clean.
• A buss wiring setup can be used provided you use single feeds for each block to prevent feedback. Do not loop the buss back to the power source or it will cancel out the signal. Instead, have half of it go one way; half the other and NOT meet in the middle. This is counter-intuitive for a conventional layout.
• Keep the DCS versions updated.
• Get the software for your PC so you can make adjustments to locomotives and update the equipment.
• Don't rely on your transformer's circuit breakers. Use a fast-acting self-resetting breaker like the PSX-AC.
• Remotes are going/have gone away (components issue). The DCS app is the wave of the future, so get a small,  inexpensive Android or iOS tablet.

Hope this helps some.

I have moved this to the proper forum.  PLEASE review our forum choices and post in the most appropriate category that best matches the subject you want to discuss.

I've been using DCS for over ten years, and I use it with TMCC/Legacy with no issues.  I have lots of Lionel and MTH locomotives, virtually all of them command equipped.

yes it works but is it a good idea when the future of the system is up in the air. lots of talk about new items and support but no action so far. I only have a couple of MTH locos but won't spend on another ( even though I like them) until someone delivers a new base system. not a fan of no hand held but could live with it.

I have used DCS for years.  I chose it over TMCC because I did not like that the Lionel remote has no screen.  That changed with the CAB-2, which is now being replaced by an app.

I am in the camp of those that prefer a dedicated handheld.  Unfortunately, the future of DCS is uncertain.  I have a backup TIU and 2 backup handheld remotes, but I still have an uneasy feeling.

If I was just starting out with command control, I'd probably lean towards the Lionel Cab-1L and the app.

If I want the same model painted in 100 different paint schemes, I'd be buying more MTH.  I hope they branch out a little and start producing more than a handful of the same engines changing only the paint job.

I have to qualify (quantify-?)  my answer by adding that I will probably not be buying any new engines.  I have all I need.

Another concern I really just recently found out about (here on this forum!), is that the MTH 5V PS-2 boards have been known to die.  I have purchased a few PS-2 engines, but without checking further, I believe they all have the 3V boards.

All circuit boards can die, it's just that the 5V PS/2 boards have a propensity to do it without warning or reason.

I started in Command-Control with Lionel's Legacy #990 Set. MTH does have a new DCS System that is coming soon. I plan to buy the new WTIU sometime in the future. I have an old I-Phone that I will use to run trains with both Lionel's and MTH's apps.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

All circuit boards can die, it's just that the 5V PS/2 boards have a propensity to do it without warning or reason.

I can vouch for that. I have a couple of dead 5V locomotives I'm trying to figure out what to do with. Thinking DCC conversion.

Jonsuponski in 2002 as i look at the old receipt, bought a new boxed set 30-1001 tiu and its remote 179.00 and spare remote 50-1002  - 116.95 . Couple of months ago had GGG repair a capacitor in that old tiu and works fine. Remote still working and spare still new .

Twenty years with just the one repair i cannot complain about the system at all.

Fun to be had with what ever system you choose.

@Dieseler posted:

Remote still working and spare still new .

I recommend testing the new remote.

If you are thinking about DCS purchases, you have a choice to make. Pay the perhaps very high price of a used system that might include the handheld remote but with no warranty, or wait for the promised new Wi-Fi TIU which does not come with a physical remote.  Tough call in these uncertain times,  with some questions about future repair and parts availability. 

If I were just starting out in command control, I wouldn't choose DCS for one reason: no designated remote.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've been using DCS for over ten years, and I use it with TMCC/Legacy with no issues.  I have lots of Lionel and MTH locomotives, virtually all of them command equipped.

John:

My situation exactly.

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If I want the same model painted in 100 different paint schemes, I'd be buying more MTH.  I hope they branch out a little and start producing more than a handful of the same engines changing only the paint job.

John:

Unless something changes dramatically in the new MTH business model, that is very unlikely, as MTH sold most of their tooling to Lionel and Atlas. What is being produced by MTH now is built off the tooling that the other manufacturers did not want.

Pat

FWIW, I love DCS with the handheld remote and TIU, all of which has worked flawlessly for me since I acquired it in 2020. That year, being a contrarian and worried about MTH's continued existence, I bought more MTH than ever before.

I'm totally sold on MTH PS2 and PS3 running them on DCS. Arnold

I'm actually sold on both systems, they each have their pluses and minuses.  I see no reason to limit myself, and I'm sure glad I didn't limit myself to just DCS! All of a sudden there's minimal new product to choose from!

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and this thread demonstrates that. I use both systems but for my 2 cents, DCS is much more buggy. Also, as several have said, the DCS future path is an unknown. My future purchases will be Lionel based until something changes my mind. Ymmv.

@irish rifle

MTH sold most of their tooling to Lionel and Atlas.

Pat

How much tooling did MTH sell exactly?

"The combined sale of the Atlas, Scale Trains and now Lionel purchases still leaves approximately 80% of the M.T.H. tooling portfolio in the hands of M.T.H."

https://mthtrains.com/news/706

After some experience with early DCS (buggy, as noted earlier), I’ve moved to TMCC and Legacy.  I have TMCC, Legacy, Atlas, K-Line, Weaver and TMCC-Ed Williams locomotives. On my full operating New Haven RR with as many as 10 operators there are ZERO control issues.  The exception being when an operator keys in another operator’s locomotive 🤣.  

The DCS System is great once you get it set up correctly and updated to the most current version. In between layouts now so we sold all our DCS units and put in an order for the newer combined TIU/Wifi unit due out later this year or sometime next year. I'm a believer. That said, I would wait to make sure the new TIU/Wifi unit is produced before jumping into the MTH universe. As to the dedicated remote v smartphone app, MTH is all about the app; I wouldn't buy MTH thinking they'll get back into producing remotes. It wasn't a deciding factor for us, but for some it is.

Thinking back to our last layout, getting everything to work properly wasn't as simple as setting up Lionel Legacy, which was a one wire drop to the track. Initially we had a challenge recognizing TIUs, finding engines, getting WiFi to work, weak track signals - nothing was plug and play. You need to read the instructions (we didn't) and there is a 238-page companion book you can buy to help you troubleshoot any issues you might have.  The 238 pages is testimony to the added complexity of the DCS system. To be fair, the book is about all the capabilities of the DCS system and not just troubleshooting. It's not as captivating as, say, Brothers Karamazov, but it is extremely useful.

I've had DCS for over 10 years.  It's good and can be fun, but it's not perfect.  When it works, it works great.  But when it doesn't work, it's very frustrating.  And the not working part might not be DCS itself but something else like a PS engine, track, the remote, wiring, switches or just a gremlin waiting to **** you off.  Sometimes you scratch your head... it worked yesterday, why not today?  Just search though this forum and see all of the people asking questions or in need of help.

I finally decided to migrate away from DCS after I purchased two PS3 Premier F7's that were meant to be lashed up (consisted).  Independently they ran fantastic.  But lashed up they ran horrible.  My operating sessions were not fun.  While I still have DCS on the layout, I don't use it at all.

Then you have the whole MTH company dilemma.  They are in business they aren't in business.  They are producing they aren't producing.  That presents too much risk for my liking.

Good luck with your decision.

Ron

I have plenty of DCS locomotives, but most of my new purchases have been Lionel.  I did go the extra mile to wire for DCS reliability and I rarely have a problem, though at times for no apparent reason an engine will refuse to be found.

My reasoning for going mostly Lionel is that MTH has stopped producing the variety of products that they used to have.  Now you see one specific engine or boxcar painted 100 different paint schemes, not 100 different models.  For the whole time since the "new" MTH surfaced, I've only seen three different steam models, not exactly a flood.

@Ron045 posted:

I've had DCS for over 10 years.  It's good and can be fun, but it's not perfect.  When it works, it works great.  But when it doesn't work, it's very frustrating.  And the not working part might not be DCS itself but something else like a PS engine, track, the remote, wiring, switches or just a gremlin waiting to **** you off.  Sometimes you scratch your head... it worked yesterday, why not today?  Just search though this forum and see all of the people asking questions or in need of help.

I finally decided to migrate away from DCS after I purchased two PS3 Premier F7's that were meant to be lashed up (consisted).  Independently they ran fantastic.  But lashed up they ran horrible.  My operating sessions were not fun.  While I still have DCS on the layout, I don't use it at all.

Then you have the whole MTH company dilemma.  They are in business they aren't in business.  They are producing they aren't producing.  That presents too much risk for my liking.

Good luck with your decision.

Ron

Ron:

I have run many MTH lash-ups over the years. I have experienced some anomalies from time to time doing so, like the smoke turning on, when I have it turned off, marker lights not turning on, when I have them on, etc., but most are in the category of minor annoyances. What I have found to be much more challenging is running ABA and ABBA lash-ups, as the MTH Bs are non-powered. This is most acute when the engines are pulling long consists. For that reason, the unpowered MTH Bs have become shelf queens.

I never could figure out why MTH did not make powered Bs. I find it's always best to be running powered engines back-to-back. Lionel got this right.

Pat

IMHO, the decision to select a control system should be driven mostly by the preponderance of brands of engines you either own or, in the near term, planning to buy. This usually means that the decision on control system is driven by the type, road name and maybe user reviews of the engines you have or are intending to purchase. Simply put, decide on a control system based on the motive power that makes you happy.

My purchase of Lionel TMCC was driven entirely by buying K-Line Collector Club engines back in the 90's. The purchase of MTH DCS was entirely the result of first getting a PRR Aerotrain and Coors Silver Bullet.

Some great comments above, regarding a best future train system. All I need is already here.

To date, I only have a test loop of track, 12'x6'. My permanent layout is under construction at a glacial pace. I have a lot of locomotives that I have acquired over many years their numbers equally divided between conventional, TMCC and DCS. I have enough that if one died every 9 months for the rest of my life; there would still be a Hudson pulling the Empire State on my hundredth birthday.

Most are sleeping in their boxes. Some sit on the sidelines of the test loop ...watching and waiting their turn. Finally, a handful go through the daily paces, allowing me my daily fix of "machines in motion".  For reasons not completely clear the DCS give me the greatest pleasure. So much control so little effort, I'm tempted to believe it is all about that remote and screen.

I will never tire of moving the throttle on the oversized transformer and feeling that behemoth of yesteryear take slack and slip and stutter as she begins. Nor can I discount the detail of the 3rd Rail locomotives, but my old TMCC Cab1 sure feels lacking.

I bought a couple of MTH NYC RS-3s recently for switching duties, I love'em, however they are the only new engines I have bought in the last 10 years.  I have bought at least 10 locomotives, used, in that same period all, DCS.

Not sure where the manufacturers of "O" are headed, or specifically MTH and the DCS line. There are enough trains that exist sleeping in boxes or sitting on shelves that there will always be a supply of the trains that I particularly love, in a "Used Marketplace" to accommodate me, often at a substantially more affordable price.  And if the last MTH remote someday dies I will most likely have proceeded it into eternity and if not, economics will demand someone to replace it.

I have many friends, but none very interested in my train thing. They are equally impressed with my 700E pulling Rail Chief cars using a ZW as my more detailed brass 3rd Rail Locos. I enjoy the different technologies and the evolution. But my whole point being I don't care as much about future trains and attendant systems; all the trains I will ever need already exist. I don't desire the newest or the future, not when I thrill watching a train as old as me take another lap.

kevin

I have both TMCC/Legacy and DCS.  I find that DCS is much more difficult to get reliable operation from than are the Lionel systems.  Too often, I get the dreaded "engine not found" message on the remote.  It is very frustrating.

The major issue with DCS in my opinion is the two way control system.  The DCS signal has to travel from the remote to the locomotive and from the locomotive back to the remote.  Unless the track is properly wired and the track is clean, nothing works (for me) for no apparent reason.  When I push the horn button, for example, I just want to hear the horn blow.  That is all the feedback from the engine that I need.  I don't care if the engine has to send a signal back through the track to the remote that the horn has blown.  

I want to run trains instead of becoming an electronics sleuth / engineer.  All the people who have had success with DCS seem to be train repair people or have many people running DCS in their area.  There are only a couple of people beside myself running DCS in the SF Bay Area.  I am a member of 3-rail club.  We have never been able to get DCS to run reliably on the club's layout.  The club's wiring was done per the DCS star wiring instructions and the system was installed according to the DCS handbook.  

I am not going to buy DCS in the future.  I will probably start to convert my MTH engines to another system.  I am considering battery.   NH Joe

@AGHRMatt posted:

We've used DCS since they first came out and though there were bumps along the road, it has worked pretty well. We got ours even before the California dealers got theirs due to the diligence of our dealer back then (shout-out to Sean Marchev, who picked them up from MTH directly and shipped them out via FedEx). Some things we've learned over the years:

• "Passive Mode" wiring of the layout is better for the health of the TIU.
• Remember, this is a computer-style packet network command structure, so you need to make sure your layout wiring is clean.
• A buss wiring setup can be used provided you use single feeds for each block to prevent feedback. Do not loop the buss back to the power source or it will cancel out the signal. Instead, have half of it go one way; half the other and NOT meet in the middle. This is counter-intuitive for a conventional layout.
• Keep the DCS versions updated.
• Get the software for your PC so you can make adjustments to locomotives and update the equipment.
• Don't rely on your transformer's circuit breakers. Use a fast-acting self-resetting breaker like the PSX-AC.
• Remotes are going/have gone away (components issue). The DCS app is the wave of the future, so get a small,  inexpensive Android or iOS tablet.

Hope this helps some.

I have a small layout it’s just slightly larger than a 4x8.  Since it was planned and constructed recently I made no provision for DCS and wired it for Lionel Legacy/TMCC.  I have been thinking about adding the New DCS TIU because there are a few Rail King locomotives in the secondary market that I would like to get.  According to my local dealer, the size of my layout (2 ovals) with two bus lines (one line that terminates for each oval) I shouldn’t have to rewire it.  I’m using a GW-180 for all track power. I’ve read of the issues with DCS especially the early versions.  Rewiring my layout is not an option to run a couple of locomotives.   So my question is:

1. Is rewiring my small layout necessary for DCS to work?

On a small layout you probably won't need to rewire it.

@Mooner posted:

You need to read the instructions (we didn't) and there is a 238-page companion book you can buy to help you troubleshoot any issues you might have.  The 238 pages is testimony to the added complexity of the DCS system. To be fair, the book is about all the capabilities of the DCS system and not just troubleshooting. It's not as captivating as, say, Brothers Karamazov, but it is extremely useful.

The Grand Inquisitor Chapter in Brothers Karamazov, which I read at Columbia College and is still highly relevant today IMO, is profound IMO. LOL, Arnold

Since you already have your layout buss wired, stay with it, but follow AGHRMatt's 3 bullet point: Make certain your busses are NOT loops! A quick couple of snips with wire cutters is all it takes. And where your buss is snipped to the center rail, install an insulated pin or gap in your track center rail. Maybe overkill, but it does prevent a potential problem down the road.

Chris

LVHR

TMCC /Legacy user since 1996.  DCS user since 2006.

Both are great, and coexist peacefully on my layout.  The only major issue I ever had with DCS was completely my fault. While not looking, I plugged the AIU into the wrong jack on the TIU, and it did the thing

I fixed it myself with the help of GRJ letting me know which part it was that needed un-soldering, then soldering in the new one.  It's been fine ever since.

At the time I decided to add DCS 16 years ago, I took my time.  I would do one layout section at a time, then test it.  Then move onto the next, etc..etc...

I did have one section where the DCS signal got screwy, but it had to do with how I had some back to back switches wired up.

Since I was already power my switches separately from track power, it was easy enough to connect them up to the AIU.  I was and am still using Fastrack

All in all it's been running just fine for 16 years.

@Mooner posted:

You need to read the instructions (we didn't) and there is a 238-page companion book you can buy to help you troubleshoot any issues you might have.  The 238 pages is testimony to the added complexity of the DCS system. To be fair, the book is about all the capabilities of the DCS system and not just troubleshooting.

I always thought it was odd that MTH didn't produce such a comprehensive book.  Many times after introduction of a complex new product or software, a "_______ For Dummies" book will follow written by an independent writer. (Kevin O'Leary made his fortune doing that.) But Barry B's 238-page book is not for dummies. It explains things that MTH should have explained in the first place and things that should have been wrapped into later MTH DCS documentation.

Now if only a "Legacy for Dummies" book can come out...

I may have a little trouble explaining what I'm about to say, but I'll try because it may be important for those choosing between DCS, TMCC and Legacy systems.

As I mentioned before, DCS has worked great for me for the 2 years I've had it.

I wanted to run TMCC using my DCS remote unit, so I got what I believe is known as the Legacy base. I did my best to follow the directions in the DCS Bible (Barry's book) to install the Legacy base on my layout.

After I did that and ran a TMCC locomotive on my layout, the locomotive would move a few feet, then stop.

I never had that problem running MTH PS 2 and 3, using the DCS remote.

I have a few small voltage drops and not the cleanest track on my layout, consisting of Postwar tubular track with curves that are mostly 031, and 022 switches.

I wonder: does MTH DCS tend to work better than Lionel TMCC on layouts like mine?

What do you think?

Incidentally, I have 2 Legacy engines with Bluetooth that I run using the LionChief Universal Remote, and those engines run very well on my layout.

Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I wanted to run TMCC using my DCS remote unit, so I got what I believe is known as the Legacy base. I did my best to follow the directions in the DCS Bible (Barry's book) to install the Legacy base on my layout.

After I did that and ran a TMCC locomotive on my layout, the locomotive would move a few feet, then stop.

Arnold,

Is the headlight flickering when it stops?

If so you have a signal problem with your new Legacy Base.  There's a short list of fixes.

Mike

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

As I mentioned before, DCS has worked great for me for the 2 years I've had it.

After I did that and ran a TMCC locomotive on my layout, the locomotive would move a few feet, then stop.- Typically indicating signal loss of the TMCC radio signal.

I never had that problem running MTH PS 2 and 3, using the DCS remote.- Because DCS signal is embedded into the power reaching the locomotive. It's not a radio signal subject to reception problems.

I have a few small voltage drops and not the cleanest track on my layout, consisting of Postwar tubular track with curves that are mostly 031, and 022 switches. And here is part of the problem TMCC radio signal I ran into myself. When you have many nearby tracks that all are attempting to radiate the TMCC radio signal. Adjacent tracks side by side can actually cause engine reception problems.

I wonder: does MTH DCS tend to work better than Lionel TMCC on layouts like mine? Yes, as stated, DCS is a signal embedded in the power reaching the engine. A such, if the engine has good power, it also hopefully has good DCS signal. However, that same layout can be problematic with nearby adjacent parallel tracks (even in curves) to TMCC radio signal reception. Elevated tracks that overlap overhead compared to lower tracks, side by side tracks, even just being nearby (smaller 031 curved based layout and switches) everything is just nearby and changes the signal pattern and affects reception (antenna signal lobe shaping).

Incidentally, I have 2 Legacy engines with Bluetooth that I run using the LionChief Universal Remote, and those engines run very well on my layout. Again, because your layout room is relatively small and you have good power, bluetooth is not going long range so sure it works fine in your example.

I say these things, because I recently was getting frustrated, both at our club and at my own home layout when I had several fastrack switches that were not responding to TMCC radio signal. Because I was switching from Fastrack to Alas, I had removed various sections. It was then I noticed if the parallel loop and track was connected, suddenly the switches and even some trains had TMCC reception problems. I simply added an earth grounded wire under the table in this area where I saw signal loss and suddenly it all worked perfectly TMCC signal. Then I got to thinking back about other situations where I saw similar problems and they too happened when there were lots of nearby tracks in parallel about 5-6 inches away. Going back to many of the TMCC forum discussions and understanding the specialized characteristics of the 455KHz TMCC signal explains what I saw in the real world.

So having watched your posted videos and knowing what you layout is like- it does now seem like it's possible you could have TMCC radio reception problems and a possible solution is mounting an earth grounded wire under your layout.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I never had that problem running MTH PS 2 and 3, using the DCS remote.- Because DCS signal is embedded into the power reaching the locomotive. It's not a radio signal subject to reception problems.

The DCS signal is certainly an RF signal, just because it's using the tracks as a transmission line doesn't change that fact.  In point of fact, typically there are lots more issues with DCS signals reaching the locomotive than with TMCC/Legacy.

The DCS signal isn't really "embedded in the power", it just uses the track as a transmission line and rides along with the power.  Half of the TMCC/Legacy system also rides along the track, and the other half is the "over the air" part.

Now, if you're talking DCC, that's really "embedded in the power", the actual power really does also contain the signal.