MTH Proto 2 FP45 - Running Issue in Conventional

Same thing happen with the pass cars removed from the track?  I'm thinking of a center rail roller on one of the cars intermittently shorting out...

It does seem like a cruise problem , (it's always on by default) could be   a dirty timing tape, incorrect spacing between the reader and tape or a faulty reader.   You can turn the cruise off in conventional. maybe try that... see manual.

One other thing. just about forget... If the engine has been sitting for a long time.. lube the center rail roller pin. It's surprising how a dirty roller pin can cause so many  problems.

How's the battery? how long do sounds continue on after track power is shut off.

Gregg - great thoughts.  All of them!  I will pull the cars tonight and see what happens.  I know that I have one of my Altas Comets cars out of service because it has a short I have yet to track down.  It very well may be a problem with the cars.  I use a Z4000 and didn't note any shorts, but you never know.

The battery is operating properly.  It goes through the full shut down sequence without any issues.  I'll be sure to check the rollers.  Finally I was hoping not to pop the shell off, but if worse comes to worse, I have no problem with that. 

Thank you!

You're welcome, Another thing might be a jammed traction tire... Good  luck. hope it's nothing serious.

Some other things to look for tonight.

Does the rev'ing sound ever notch up when it starts moving?  One symptom of a failed tach is the engine sound never leaves idle even if the engine is speeding around the track.  This can be hard to hear dragging passenger cars.

Does it behave the same in reverse?

Since you have a Z4000, what are the Volt and Amp readings for the various situations (no cars, with cars, forward, backward).  The numbers bounce around on the display but you should be able to bound the numbers after a few trials.

I'm putting my money on some kind of power issue whether it be dirty rollers, track wiring, car loading, whatever.  That is, in conventional the engine speed is proportional to track voltage as seen by the engine.  So as it speeds up and draws more current, the voltage the engine sees starts to sag which tells it to stop.  This lowers the current, so the voltage at the engine rises, it starts going again.  And the "vicious" cycle repeats...

 Both of these guys know more than I do about this. I swear that I had this happen once, a long time ago. If I remember right, a tach wire fell off, or something went wrong with wiring (short?). I just can't remember the fix, just that problem of uncontrolled running and stopping. It may even have been a lighting wire shorting?

 Maybe the truck's pickup wire was touching the frame??? Urrggg. I'm getting old!

It just didn't shut down, it kept running, but erratic.

 I buy used stuff and have run into a lot of troubles like this. I should have documented each one. I was always glad just to solve the issue.

 These guys will help better than I. I'm just wondering now if it's a 5 volt board??

Now, back to your regular programming!

When I first ran it, it took nearly 9 volts to start the locomotive running in forward.  It ran fine at that voltage and I assumed that it was simply a function of the China drive. 

Haven't we had enough of the historically inaccurate and at best xenophobic terminology?  It is time to overcome prejudice against national origin and motor orientation. 

And besides, this prejudice is an impediment accurately understanding locomotive behavior.

in conventional the engine speed is proportional to track voltage as seen by the engine.

Stan is correct.  A Proto 2 or Proto 3 locomotive uses a steady track voltage as a speed command.  Motor speed is controlled through pulse width modulation.  The 0-20 SMPH speed range in controlled by the locomotive seeing 8-12 volts.  Speeds of 20-120 SMPH are controlled by the locomotive receiving 12-16 volts.

Your problem could be caused by inconsistent track power, but I doubt that your track power is that inconsistent.  Even if track voltage was all over the place the locomotive would still follow speed ramping settings if the speed control was functioning properly.

There could be an intermittent mechanical cause of high friction like a partially dislodged traction tire.  A tire would be easy to spot.

My best guess at long distance diagnosis is a problem with the tach strip or tack reader given the symptoms and the sudden onset. 

What is the product number of this locomotive?

Does Bob Guildig belong to your club?  If so, ask him to take a look.

PS1 or PS2?  All the FP45s I have that are Premier vs Railking have PS1 electronics.

Model number is important here so we can determine if this is 5V, 3V or PS-3.  The stop and go seems like a sporadic fault if it is not a mechanical issue with tires, binding.

If the tach is broke or wire off, it is full speed ahead when the direction is changed.   G

With all due respect Ted, I would hardly call my statement xenophobic.  We both know that the common name for the vertical drive system has nothing to do with national origin or a culture.  We can continue to disagree over drive arrangement as we and others have in the past, but I that is really not the issue I am trying to figure out.  I will certainly agree that making the comment isn't relevant to the topic.

Having said that, I do appreciate your input on helping diagnose the issue.  This is the only locomotive I own that has shown this kind of behavior on my layout.  My F40PH has pulled this same train for hours without incident.  I will have to check the mileage when I have a chance to hook it up to DCS, but it doesn't look like the locomotive has had many if any miles put on it.  I am suspecting a tach issue as well as I am certain the locomotive was bounced around a bit in shipping and perhaps something is out of place. 

When I had a few minutes during booting my home office computer I ran it again with no cars.  It started running at 11 volts and ran extremely slowly at that speed without the unusual behavior.  When I get more time this evening, I will pull the shell and see if I can figure out what is going on.

Thanks for the input to date. 

I don't know Bob Guilding, but the Paradise and Pacific does have a lot of very knowledgeable DCS people.  We are running 5 TIUs on 1300 s.f. of layout over four mainlines so it is a pretty complex setup.  When all else fails I will bring it over there and see if anyone can help figure it out.  I'd like to pick up a second one when funds permit regardless of the issues with this one.  

Richard - this is a PS2 version.  There is a PS3 version as well in Santa Fe.  When time permits, I'll fix the pilot, fuel tank and all that fun stuff.

By the way, I don't have the exact model number handy, but is a 3V system.  The locomotive number is 90.

Could be a loose tach in the bracket, a motor plug or 7 pin plug loose.  I would do what your planning and reseat all the connectors, make sure tach reader is adjusted properly and tach tape (or stripes) are good, do a feature reset (can do this conventional) and take her for another test drive.  G

Thanks for the advice.  I will check it out and go through it properly.  I got called back to the office so this will likely fall to a weekend project. 

 Well I may as well do something + here

http://mthtrains.com/content/30-2909-1

With all due respect Ted, I would hardly call my statement xenophobic.  We both know that the common name for the vertical drive system has nothing to do with national origin or a culture.  We can continue to disagree over drive arrangement as we and others have in the past, but I that is really not the issue I am trying to figure out.  I will certainly agree that making the comment isn't relevant to the topic.

 

Jonathan

In your original post you said....

When I first ran it, it took nearly 9 volts to start the locomotive running in forward.  It ran fine at that voltage and I assumed that it was simply a function of the China drive. 

You saw what you regarded as a problem with high starting voltage.  Your assumption was that it must be related to a mechanical configuration that you, based on your prior statements, judge to be of inferior quality.

In fact, 8 volts (at the locomotive) is the normal starting voltage for a Proto2 or 3 locomotive in conventional mode.  Eight volts is very "nearly 9 volts".  With 9 volts at the locomotive it will travel at 5 SMPH.

High starting voltage is a common characteristic of dual mode decoder equipped locomotives.  Your Proto 2 equipped locomotive was behaving exactly as it should. 

But you didn't know that.  You assumed that it must be related to something you and others have derided as inferior.  The "common name" for that feature is historically and factually incorrect.  So is your assumption as to the effect of that feature on the performance of your locomotive.

About a year and a half ago there was a discussion on this forum that resulted from an add that used your "common term" for a twin vertical can motor drive.  That same thread also included a post from an editor of OGR stating that he had never heard the term used in one manufacturers add to describe a twin vertical can motor drive mechanism.  Nor had several other three railers.  Another poster believed the origin or at least the source of the popularization of the term was a well known 2 rail O scale modeler.

That thread can be read here.

https://ogrforum.com/t...3rd-rail-china-drive

As seen later in that thread, the first twin vertical can motored mechanisms for O gauge trains were first manufactured in the USA.  In the 1990s they were made in large numbers in Korea.  Then, like many other items, manufacture of O gauge diesel locomotives became common in china. 

Some people, many of them two rail O scalers, use the term of Asian national origin in an intentionally derogatory fashion.  Never mind that it is factually incorrect.  As Bob Bartizek put it back then...

Never let the facts get in the way of a good derogatory term though...

Your mechanical prejudice has clouded your understanding of how your locomotive operates.  And the term smacks of truly tasteless prejudices.  This is a great place to learn how model trains really work.  You can learn a lot here.  You can learn more quickly when you learn to drop your prejudices.  So please drop the prejudicial term. 

And do report back on what you find.  You could have a mechanical problem causing intermittent high drag.  But I'm betting on a speed control issue.  You have some good suggestions here for things to check.  A loose bracket or plug would be a nice easy thing to fix.  A bad tack strip or even a bad sensor aren't big deals.  Let's get this FP45 running right!