MTH Z4000 and Lionel Locomotives

What do you mean by saying "when I apply power to the track"? Do you start off with zero volts to the track and then slowly move the Z4000 handle up? Are the outputs of the Z4000 connected directly to the track?

Also remember that the Lionel locos with electronic reversing units always start in the forward direction.

I run Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Weaver, and Williams locos, in conventional, TMCC, Legacy, Proto1, Proto2 (DCS), with a Z4000 and can't say I've ever encountered the problem you describe.

Ken 

Yes, the Z4000 is connected directly to the track, and I move the handle forward and it takes off forward, much faster than any of my MTH locomotives.

Bumped to see if anyone has an answer...  Also, do all Lionel Locomotives start in the forward position, or in neutral??

Thanks

I don't have but 6 Lionel locomotives, and to the best of my memory Lionel products do start-up in forward, unlike MTH, which start-up in neutral. That said, my entire layout is all command control (DCS, Legacy, and TMCC), but on one or two occasions, more than one Lionel locomotive apparently did NOT see/receive its TMCC "signal", and suddenly took off, after having been sitting on a powered track for more than an hour.

I run only conventional.  I have a Z4000, and I run nearly all Lionel.  I have had no problems with the Z4000 and see no difference between how locos run with it as compared to the two CW-80s I have, too.  It is a superb unit to power anything from pre-war Marx to the very latest Legacy and Premier locos in conventional.

- Starting out in neutral.  I have some locos that start out in F, some in neutral, but i've never noticed this is a function of transformer.  For example my Lionel Santa Fe anniversary ABBA set starts out in forward on eithera CW-80 or Z4000.  My Legacy Southern Crescent starts in neutral, regardless of which, and I can't remember whether recetn conventional Lionel locos (Shifter, the conventioal Atlantic start out in F or N - really not importat - they cycle dependably with the Z4000's direction switch or just by throttling back, etc.  I pick up my ZW-L in a few hours and while testing it out I will check to see if there is a difference in this with the Z4000 and ZW-L, though.

- Going Slow.  Alll of my Lionel locos - all of my locos for that matter, seem to run as slowly with the Z4000 as with a CW-80.  None run as slowly as those friends run under Legacy or DCS control, but wither conventional or Legacy, my locos go about as slow as they will go in conventional on either: I've never noticed a difference and if there is one it has to be very minor.

- Bells and whistles.  I have had some locos that the Bell, or the Whistle button would not work on, but I never let this bother me. 

Galen,

   Wish I could help you with this problem but its a 1st for me, you might want to

ask this question on the DCS forum where Barry might be able to give you an answer.

PCRR/Dave

My friend Bob, a certified Lionel technician, tells me that all modern Lionel (non-Legacy) locos start in forward in conventional mode.  I have only one of these and was surprised and had to react quickly when I first powered it up on my layout. I run conventional and have mostly MTH locos, which all start in neutral.

Phil

philg,

  One thing I was taught about the new Lionel engines, they even start in FWD with the legacy hand held remote, however you must scroll the power wheel to make them move, they initiate (come on) at the zero point, in the Conventional mode I do not know just how the engine is set up, it might very well come on at a high speed.  I have no Legacy engines so I am unfamiliar with what the engineering really happens to be.

PCRR/Dave

The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with the transformer, it's all in the locomotive's electronics. It is a significant change, though, since all of the Postwar and early TMCC (80's and 90's) locomotives started in neutral.

Phil

All MTH with PS-2 and above have speed control.  So they will not immediately jump to a high speed, instead they accelerate like a real loco would.  Early Lionel TMCC does not have Cruise control/speed control.  Even some that do, it can be turned off via a switch.  So that is probably why they jump start compared to your experience with MTH in conventional.

I think they are normal, and try starting with a lower voltage around 8-10.  They will move fast though, just like Williams and conventional Lionel engines.  They tend to run faster.

Now if this is a newer TMCC unit with Odysey II, I would make sure it is turned on.  G

See GGG post sbove. Specifically, if you have the TMCC Odyssey version (6-38045) Hudson, take a look at the owners manual at about page 11 where it describes how to enable or disable the Odyssey system for conventional operation.

It is highly unlikely that your Z4000 is causing the problem.

Ken

Ken,

   I agree, that the Z4K is not the problem it runs all the old conventionals and the new MTH engines perfectly, this control situation has to do with the engineering of the new Lionel engines, no doubt about it. 

PCRR/Dave

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much.  I didn't think it was the Z4000, I was questioning the Lionel locomotives.  You have shed good light on this.  I have drop wires running to the track, every  5 to 6 feet.  Is this what the "terminal block"  is for?  Thanks!!

R/

Galen

Everyone, I posted my review of the ZW-L today and I DID observe that that both my Lionel conventional Atlantic and Legacy Southern Crescent, the only two locos I tested, ran much slower, in conventional, on the ZW-L than with my Z4000.    They also run slower on the ZW-L than when powered by a CW-80, and I'm not sure why, but they do: it may be the CW-80 could go that low if you could control it fine enough, but I can't get there.  Anyway with the ZW-L they go almost Legacy slow, still run smoothly, and give no hint of stalling.

gtw,

You never stated whether your two locos were TMCC/Odyessy, etc. ChessieMD brought up a good point that I forgot to mention and that is the delay of up to 8 seconds for a TMCC locomotive to respond when you first power it up. If your locos are indeed TMCC versions, when you first power them up do you keep advancing the throttle while the loco is sitting there thinking or looking for a TMCC signal? if so, by the time the loco makes up its mind that it should respond to the track voltage in conventional mode, you probably have a rather high track voltage setting. So it will take off like a rocket! That's just one of the features (or "Quirks") of TMCC locomotives.

So try starting off with a much lower voltage reading on the Z4000 and see what happens.

Ken

One is a Lionel TMCC Lionmaster Hudson, the other is the older Lindberg Atlantic, also TMCC, but Railsounds.  I believe, that I am just using too much voltage, being use to the MTH locomotives starting.

do you have a legacy or tmcc command system hooked up to your layout?   if so you can not run your TMCC in conventional mode.

No, All I have at the present is a Z4000.