My 1940’s Military War Train

I think the question is whether the tank would have been transported on US rails in winter of 1943 since that is the approximate time and railroad location Eric gave in his original post. He stated he was pretty particular in how he chose the time and equipment. So given that I think Eric stated that his train is already too long at this point, it could save him some time by not having to build the tank if it truly does not fit into the scheme, or he could just choose to ignore the information and build the tank anyway just for kicks.

My take from the information provided is that the winter of 1943 is Jan/Feb/March and that the tank likely would not have been on the rails at that time.

Lots a great information guys! Thank you for posting 

some in progress pics 

Thank you kindly for the nice comments 

christopher N&W posted:

I think the question is whether the tank would have been transported on US rails in winter of 1943 since that is the approximate time and railroad location Eric gave in his original post. He stated he was pretty particular in how he chose the time and equipment. So given that I think Eric stated that his train is already too long at this point, it could save him some time by not having to build the tank if it truly does not fit into the scheme, or he could just choose to ignore the information and build the tank anyway just for kicks.

My take from the information provided is that the winter of 1943 is Jan/Feb/March and that the tank likely would not have been on the rails at that time.

Totally agree. The HVSS equipped Sherman’s would have been delivered via rail from factory to ship around mid 1944 (August most likely). If your goal is to model a troop train “around winter 1943”, like Erik said on the first page, it all depends on what your tolerance for “around” is. For me, I also consider “winter 1943” to include December 1943, so this 7-8 month variance is still within the “around” range on my level of tolerance.  Based on Erik’s outstanding modeling skills, I would love for him to include the M43E8’s in his train because they look so cool, but that is up to him. Either way, it’s not an unreasonable call and this guy is an outstanding modeler. I hope he keeps building and including whatever he wants.

No experience with tank transport in 1943, but 30 years later, when the "balloon went up" in Israel in 1973 we pulled M-60's out of the Army's tank depot in Indiana, had them shipped to Dayton by rail and loaded them directly into C-5 transports at Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton, Oh.  I was told that when they arrived in Tel Aviv the Israelis' rolled them off the C-5 and right at the airport fueled them up, loaded ammunition, and drove them straight to the front.  (2 per aircraft).

At the time, made us USAF guys feel pretty **** good!

Don

Charles G posted:

Eric, for jeeps and other light trucks the cheapest I have found is on E bay.  The Menards flat car with Jeeps has two jeeps and runs from $22.00 to $30.00.  The jeeps are pretty decent and you can sell the flat car on E bay to re coop some of your money.  The jeeps appear to be scale and are reasonably detailed.  I have enclosed a picture for your reference.  This makes the jeeps cost $11.00 to $15.00 each plus tax and shipping

For flat cars the Lionel is the best 50 foot car.  It takes some time to two rail the car and fill in the ends gaps included for the 3 rail coupler clearance.  For 40 foot cars the red caboose is the best unless you want a straight side 40 foot car in which case the Berkshire valley kit is the best but yo will have to build the kit.  I have built some 50 foot straight side cars from Berkshire Valley Kits but I have to mill of the fish belly sides.  The Berkshire Valley Kits are getting hard to get.  For both cars I ling to replace the decks with real 2 X 6 boards that have been distressed and weathered.

Eric,

I noticed that Menards had their jeep for $9.95 each on their web site.  They also have a half track with mounted quad four guns for $19.95.  I bought a couple of the half tracks and they are scale and very nice.

Charles G

There is some amazing work here, and I love how much attention to historical detail people are using here. Frankly, I got sick and tired of all the people modelling vehicles on flat cars with tops on Jeeps and crew-served weapons still mounted in place. Neither happened in real life as the tops would be frayed and the machine guns would have 'walked off,' (imagine having to explain that to your CO when your vehicles got to where they were going).

FYI, the canvas on military vehicles in WW2 was OD green, not a tan shade. Nor were the seat covers tan. It was all OD green (called OD #7, the same type of shade the vehicles were painted with) and the vehicles were actually painted in a semi-gloss that sadly nobody is able to reproduce today for restored vehicles.

The only WW2 soft-skinned vehicle that didn't have OD green canvas seat covers was the WD-series 3/4 ton Command Car. Those had leather seat covers.

You can see what it's supposed to look like in this shot of my living history group's vehicles at an airshow display a while back (my own 1944 Willys Jeep is the second from the camera):

I used to be a US Army officer, mostly in heavy mechanized units. I couldn't count the number of vehicles I saw loaded and off-loaded at railheads...

Sadly, as I model narrow gauge, I can't have anything bigger than a Jeep on a flat car. I matched the canvas windshield cover to the one on my own Jeep...

Lots more where that came from elsewhere on the layout. I have a few Jeeps (one with a .30 caliber machine gun mounted on a pedestal, with the ammo can removed as was common in stateside training), 3/4 ton Weapons Carriers, a Studebaker 2.5 ton US6, a GMC 2.5 ton and a Chevy 1.5 ton. All the large trucks are very difficult to find (and expensive) models sold only in Europe:

I also have a pre-war Ford, but I removed the unit markings from the door as a few of these were still in use by the end of the war stateside:

They're all 1/43 scale. I also have a small group of 1/48 and 1/50 military vehicles, which are in a tree line at the back of the layout (for a small bit of forced perspective). Only one visitor has every noticed them way back there.

Noticed none have the 'surround' US star, as that was a European theater thing. Stateside vehicles had the simple white star (or in some cases, support command insignia in place of that star).

Well said Lee. As a Millitary Modeler and member on a well respected Military Model Forum  for many years myself I see tons of mistakes in this post. The first one was the tan tops. The pictures you see of military vehicles with tan tops were due to the sun fading them in service not when they are new and the pioneer tools attached to the jeeps were not there or weathered till they seen action in service. The Jerrycans and pioneer tools on the Half  Tracks we’re not there during shipment. The Half Tracks have the wrong wheels and tires on the front they make a very nice aftermarket set that would’ve solve this problem not to mention the wrong barrel on the Long Tom as well as the wheels and tires on it. A good aftermarket barrel and wheels and tires  would’ve took care of this problem as well. Many of the decals are silvered do the fact the model wasn’t painted with a gloss coat first to adapt the decal when it was applied then dull coating afterwards and most of the vehicles would never be weathered up this heavy during transport. Thanks for pointing this out Lee you are one of the best military modelers on this forum. 

lee drennen posted:

Thanks for pointing this out Lee you are one of the best military modelers on this forum.  

Wow, thanks! I don't know what to say...

As for the wheels and 'silver' decals, I can let that slide as in most cases, that's what came with the kits.

And as for jerry cans and pioneer tools, in most cases they're already molded into place (for sure if they're die cast, like most of mine are), so there's not much of a way around that unless you want to scratch build the racks for these tools as well as the panels underneath if you have to grind away the molded tools.

Heck, a lot of wheeled vehicles in WW2 were photographed without jerry cans, axe/shovel combos, and in many cases the spare tires as well. And why? Because someone had to sign for those and if they weren't gonna be needed, who wants to explain their loss to Sarge?

Oh and just some side notes from various earlier comments here:

• The Department of Defense didn't exist until well after WW2 was over. It was the War Department then.
• I love the Panther on the flatcar as I have a soft spot for German armor (I tried to track down all of I could the two times I was in Europe), but generally any rail movement of a captured German vehicle during WW2 would be something hush-hush for the most part. It'd be covered up pretty tightly as all German armor during WW2 was tested and collected at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland (that which missed the torches at the end of the war became the base of the Ordnance museum, which moved to Fort Lee not long ago once the Ordnance Corps left Aberdeen for good). While it's something everyone knew was going on, it wasn't something that was broadcast to the public back then. "Enemy ears are listening," as they used to say...

Lee your welcome. “Silvering” is when the decal film turns silver when you apply decals to a subject not silver lettering. FYI 

Strap Hanger posted:

Texas, this linked site has pictures of the HVSS equipped Sherman’s advancing through German towns towards the end of WW2. There weren’t many HVSS equipped Sherman tanks at the time in combat, but according to this site, which is an excellent resource on Sherman tank history, they definitely were used during the war.  See more here - http://the.shadock.free.fr/she..._105mm/m4_105mm.html

 Here is one of the pictures depicting an M4A3(105)HVSS (very close to the model Eric used, just a different gun) advancing through the town of Altenhundem, Germany "as the noose tightens on trapped Nazis in the Ruhr Pocket” in WW2. The men and tanks are identified as with the 99th Infantry Division, and we would observe that the 786th Tank Battalion was attached to the 99th at that time. -  http://the.shadock.free.fr/she...105mm/m4_105mm23.jpg

Here is a picture of a train of flatbeds in France full of them with HVSS suspensions, just like Eric included in his project - 

http://the.shadock.free.fr/she...105mm/m4_105mm25.jpg

 

Here is a picture of the exact model Eric used (E8 variant) with the same gun, deployed in the battle of Bastogne - http://the.shadock.free.fr/she...a376w/m4a376w_60.jpg

More  information on this Sherman m4a3E8 HVSS variant  here (Note towards the bottom of the link it mentions that over 1000 Of this variant, the exact model Eric used, were in the European theatre as of VE Day)  - http://the.shadock.free.fr/she...4a376w/m4a3_76w.html

Never say, never! 

——————-

Eric, love your work and keep sharing pics with us. It’s definite inspiring me to complete a few more of my WW2 flatbed  projects.

 

I'm trying to study this. I'm having information overload. I'll have to return again.... but thanks!

lee drennen posted:

Lee your welcome. “Silvering” is when the decal film turns silver when you apply decals to a subject not silver lettering. FYI 

Does anyone know the cause of decal silvering and how to prevent it?

It happens about 10% of the time with my homemade waterslide decals

Lionelski posted:

lee drennen posted:

Lee your welcome. “Silvering” is when the decal film turns silver when you apply decals to a subject not silver lettering. FYI 

Does anyone know the cause of decal silvering and how to prevent it?

It happens about 10% of the time with my homemade waterslide decals

First gloss coat your subject with future floor polish where are you want your decal or you can also use aerosol spray cans that come in Gloss coat then use Microset where are you want your decal Applied let it dry then apply a dull/ matte coat over that if you do not want to buy the high price solvent you also can use regular vinegar. You may have to brush on micro set over the decal before applying the gloss coat some decal film are very cheap the cheaper the decal the worst silvering you’ll get it pays to buy high quality decal paper

Folks: Be sure to look for Lee Bishop's review of Bachmann's new On30 U.S. Army (and other roads) "Trench" locomotive in the upcoming April/May issue of O Gauge Railroading magazine.

Great posts guys keep adding more information! I have not had any time to follow up. I’ll get back to it soon. 

Allan Miller posted:

Folks: Be sure to look for Lee Bishop's review of Bachmann's new On30 U.S. Army (and other roads) "Trench" locomotive in the upcoming April/May issue of O Gauge Railroading magazine.

Ah, shucks, Allan! You're making all blush over here...

But really folks, as Allan and a few of you have figured out, I'm really into the WW2 era for military stuff. Dare I say, I probably know as much about WW2 US stuff as "Hot Water" does about current steam operations. Model trains, really, are my second major interest. I've done a lot of writing, collecting, research into the subject. I've got my 1944 Willys Jeep in the garage, have crewed WW2 tanks, WW2 aircraft, even jumped off landing craft in WW2 uniform more than once. Heck, for a while I was only actual WW2 war correspondent in the living history hobby, as I was a paid writer/artist/cartoonist for a British Living History magazine...

Here I am again, leading a convoy of WW2 vehicles behind the while of my Jeep:

My father flew a British Spitfire for the US Army Air Corps in WW 2. He told my mother that he probably wouldn't return to the US and he didn't. Shot down over Sicily in 1943 when I was 2 months old.

I mentioned some video of the test consist while I was building up the flats, at the High Plains a Route with some Santa Fe theme. 

I have resumed the project and will share some progress. I did manage to build an additional 4 more Sherman tanks and more flat cars. 

Erik,

Absolutely stunning work! I love the flatcars although it’s hard to focus on them because the loads are so realistic and super detailed.

Malcolm

@Brother_Love posted:

Erik,

Absolutely stunning work! I love the flatcars although it’s hard to focus on them because the loads are so realistic and super detailed.

Malcolm

Thank you Malcolm, I appreciate it. Nobody in my opinion has ever built models like you! I admire you greatly for so many reasons. A great friend in the hobby. 

TANKS!

Erik, great video. You did an excellent job at making a late WW2 era train.

I don't model a combat unit, as I have single company of a railway operating battalion on my layout, I only get to model wheeled vehicles. I use 1/43 models, the larger trucks are from Eastern Europe but they look great alongside the narrow gauge trajns...

The foreground truck here is a Chevy 1 1/2 ton. Its a 1/43 diecast made/sold only in Russia:

This and the GMC CCKW, with other much easier to find vehicles:

And of course, the Bachmann class 10 trench engine, for which I wrote the review for in OGR. It pulls like a beast and sounds great!

Tanks! Engineer-Joe ..

Most excellent p51, Thank you for the reference materials as they have been added to my project. Super nice layout too! 

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Erik....your modeling is the best of the best!!  I think you should submit a build article for the magazine.  Remember...we need 2-rail scale articles!!!

I missed this, apology. Yes, my time has been spread thin surprisingly in the last year but I appreciate the offer. It’s very kind the offer. I’ve been buried in some unrelated to this thread modeling articles for Tony Koester at Kalmbach and Justin Franz at RMC. I will keep your offer in mind when I get one decently organized for you. 

Seeing Santiago working in his new Military Train, got me to dust off this project too. Neat hobby!

My son is crazy about the war train stuff and I’m glad because I sort of lost the fire. Maybe it’s time to get back at it.

some of the kits I used

I gave up posting about this project because of some of the negative comments I wasn’t following established military modeling standards, etc, messing up colors, etc, etc, and that was never carried on trains, so I sort of gave it up and shelved it.

Truly a neat subject to model and from what I learned in my research is there is very little in the way of photo evidence of such activities on war weary American railroads during the War, for some obvious reasons. Life magazine has some amazing stuff, likely sanctioned etc. Some great books were written from recollections from memory of men that were there 1942-1945 trackside and or worked as railroaders in that time frame with some neat insights. I can’t post references here because of OGR policy that makes this even harder. I cannot establish my evidence here for how I did my loads because it’s “copyright” to in my case, NMRA data sheets to pneumatic tired vehicle loading practices, Kalmbach books on war trains, etc. I still enjoy the hobby I just keep it to myself now. I did these photos in June of 2019 for this forum, progress of building 40 flat cars and kits… haha  😆 I’ve since done several more, and some unique resin kits and other treasures.

Honestly I stopped sharing on OGR over the bullying; maybe it’s time for a fresh new re-start, and a perhaps it’s a friendlier environment now?  it’s been 4 or more years ago.

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

goofing around with some dramatic light tonight and a Key Cab Forward and some other toys

I forgot I did this. I need to make some more!

Great stuff, Erik and just ignore any of those types of comments if someone throws them your way. Your work and artistic skill is very much appreciated. In fact, a few years ago, you inspired me to complete a number of flat car projects.  I’m certain your posts will do the same for others.  Definitely still interested!

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Erik....your modeling is the best of the best!!  I think you should submit a build article for the magazine.  Remember...we need 2-rail scale articles!!!

Still interested?