My dream/nightmare layout... July Update 7/31/19 Big Boy month!

I also enjoy every update and all the many pictures you post along with them. As others have stated, I am more amazed with each update. Looks like it is really starting to come together too. 

If you wouldn't mind and ever have time (I don't mean to pry or want to slow down progress), I would enjoy hearing about your enterTRAINment business at the mall. I think maybe others would be interested as well? From following these layout updates, I am guessing you had quite a layout there too, and I think it would be interesting to hear about it and the business workings of it all.  

One of the few meaningful threads left to look forward to and read.

What can I say? It is a truly amazing project. The wiring alone is nothing short magnificent. I look forward to each update.

Mike

Bob - Thank you, I just hope my structure and scenery skills can live up to the rest of the layout. It will be a real gear shift getting away from the more technical aspects of the hobby and back into the artistic. Let's just say I have to shake off more than 20 years of rust. Magazines are always in the back of my mind. I went through the process with enterTRAINment back in the early 90's. Ever since I discovered you here on the forum, I've been a fan of yours. You and I are of similar minds when it comes to operations. We are part of a rare group of 3 railers in this regard. I still need to pick up a copy of the magazine and order the video.

RTR12 - A few years ago, on the 20th anniversary of opening enterTRAINment, I started a topic about it. Someone made a rude remark, to which I made a firm but polite reply. Others came to my defense. Unfortunately, I had other obligations that day, and wasn't around to try to manage the discussion. When I returned, my topic was gone (in the long standing OGR tradition).  Since then, I've been almost silent on the subject. Maybe I'll give it another go here in the future, but for now, it's perhaps best to stay with current events and not dig into history.

Roman - It really means a lot to hear you say that. That may be the best compliment I've ever gotten.  I remain committed to providing quality content to this forum.

Mike - Thanks, I'm a firm believer in tie wraps. I don't drill holes in the benchwork for wires. That makes changes much harder. Unfortunately, I didn't figure out the best way to do things until I was part way through the upper deck. The lower deck just isn't as pretty.

Darren Caruso posted:

Elliot,

 

Wow, I can't wait to see some videos, it will be amazing.  I do have one question about the masonite fascia, since I am trying to do something similar, how were you able to paint the masonite? 

 

Thank you,

 

Darren

Sorry, I missed answering your question. All of the backdrops and fascia are Masonite. I just use a roller and a brush with regular interior latex wall paint. Nothing fancy. On the backdrops, I do put on a coat of primer first. For the black fascia, I just use flat black as the primer. When I'm ready, the final coat will be semi-gloss black. It wont' show marks as badly.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

RTR12 - A few years ago, on the 20th anniversary of opening enterTRAINment, I started a topic about it. Someone made a rude remark, to which I made a firm but polite reply. Others came to my defense. Unfortunately, I had other obligations that day, and wasn't around to try to manage the discussion. When I returned, my topic was gone (in the long standing OGR tradition).  Since then, I've been almost silent on the subject. Maybe I'll give it another go here in the future, but for now, it's perhaps best to stay with current events and not dig into history.

Thanks, I understand completely.

If you ever do post about it again I will still be interested, but I wouldn't post it here and jeopardize this thread. To many neat things here and too much information to lose. I know a lot of time has gone into this thread as well as your layout.

Start a club man!

Elliot,

No problem, I've been searching the net looking for the "proper" way to paint the masonite, my only concern was the paint sticking to the smooth side.

Thank you,

Darren

Love the pics and the process......Elliot.....love looking at your stuff!

Peter

Elliot,

Just started looking at your at your progress on the layout and its outstanding.

With the size and levels of your layout do you have a problem with too much TMCC signal from level to level which makes the engine slow or stop?

Great looking layout.

El Classico - I wish it was that simple to just start a club. I'll be having an open house for the NMRA guys sometime in 2016, it's looking more like fall not spring. At that point, I'll put out the word that I'm looking for operators, and maybe even some scenery help.

Darren - There are two kinds of Masonite. The darker more brittle stuff is tempered. I've been using mostly the non-tempered, but the tempered should paint up fine.

Peter - Thanks, always great to see you here. December should be a great month.

Joe - Since day one, this layout has been plagued by TMCC signal issues. I have some engines that will go anywhere, others that have particular trouble spots, and some that are totally useless. The $64,000 question: why do some work and others don't? There are so many variables! Now that the track is nearly complete, I hope to start running more trains, and see if I can discover any patterns. I'm probably going to have to start keeping an engine by engine log to document the behavior, and note any corrective actions taken. The concept of a signal strength meter has come up in the past. I hope to build one in the not too far off future. That should help to get to the bottom of this.

Elliot,

  As usual great work sir, Merry Christmas!

PCRR/Dave

I've been working especially hard on the layout getting turnouts operational. All the work that everyone has done over the last three years has paid off today!!!!

I got the GoPro fired up and ran the full mainline eastbound and westbound. Enjoy!!!

After 12 long years, the entire mainline of the Twin Cities Central is up and running. The train departs the hidden yard and goes almost all the way up the big helix, around the upper deck, then back down to the main level, where it continues around the peninsulas, back to the helix and finally back through the hidden yard to its starting point. The only track that the train passes over twice is the bottom of the helix and a small section near the top.

Late in the video there was a minor mishap when the train parted. I simply backed up and fixed it pretty much on the fly.

I suggest you turn the sound down to watch this.

 The Twin Cities Central mainline is comprised of two reverse loops connected by some single track in the helix. From the helix, if the train enters on the main level, it's headed west. If it enters at the upper level it is headed east (see the other video).

The hidden yard is built on the other reverse loop. Near the end of the video, the train runs past the yard on the track nearest the wall. As it turns away from the wall, the actual yard begins. It has five tracks, each of which is 120 feet long and has stopping zones for five trains. That's 25 train storage / staging capacity.

Once again, I suggest that you keep the volume turned down, unless you like motor and wheel noise.

Typo in the first video URL noted. Head to the main YouTube channel for now for the 'eastbound' run

---PCJ

RailRide posted:

Typo in the first video URL noted. Head to the main YouTube channel for now for the 'eastbound' run

---PCJ

That's odd, because I just copied and pasted it. I've tried to redo it twice now, and it just won't take. The westbound was no problem.

FIXED

Elliot,

Absolutely FANTASTIC! ! ! 

You and your crew have done an amazing job. You have an unbelievable layout and the craftsmanship is nothing short of spectacular. Ok, I'm probably breaking a record for the number of superlatives in a post but it is still short of expressing my awe. 

Wow, that's quite an ambitious project!  My approach is a much smaller layout, but will it be very detailed.  I hope to start laying track as soon as I can get the track I need from Atlas.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Once again, I suggest that you keep the volume turned down, unless you like motor and wheel noise.

Is that a pulmor I hear? Love that sound, I turned it up....

Super layout, one that many of us only dreamed of having as kids, BRAVO!! 

Beautiful work Elliot.  Really enjoyed the videos and seeing the progress on your amazing railroad.  I'm amazed at the size and capacity of your yards and that helix.  Very impressive indeed!  Bo

Elliot,

Oh this is great!   Congrats to you and your helpers.  Love the fact you can store 5 trains in each yard track.   Oh I would love to stage one of my coal drags or army train on it.   Keep up the great work.    

Pat - Thank you, but it will only get better from here. Save some of your zeal for later.

Jim - I chose this monster 5 years before I started construction on it. If you go back to page one of this topic, some people were suggesting that I choose to cut back and do something more modest. Days like this make me glad I stuck to my guns. This will be an operating railroad, and the mainline represents 60 miles of real world track as it passes through the Twin Cities. Good luck on your railroad. This is the greatest hobby in the world.

Penn-Pacific - You have a good ear sir. That is the Soo SD-60 early TMCC #5500. As much as I hate those old pulmors for their noise and bad low end speed, there is something to be said for its ability to make it around the layout. Many of my can motor locos have signal issues.

Bo - Thanks, there are actually 14 different yards  around the layout. Part of the reason for so many is to hold my fleet of cars. I'm starting to worry that they won't all fit. As for the helix, that is just one of two. That one is 10 feet in diameter. There is a smaller one that is only 8 feet across.

Hi Elliot,

Now that the magnificent main line is in service, I have a couple of operational questions.  Do you plan to use the staging tracks to capacity during your operating sessions?  Will you need a separate staging operator to move 4 trains ahead one step after the train in the front of the line has departed from a staging track?  Are some of the tracks designated eastbound and others westbound?  I know that when I planned my operating schedule, staging track occupancy was a large part of it.

Congratulations on being able to run the whole railroad.  Sit back and enjoy at least a few moments of satisfaction.  Then get back to work! 

Hi Elliot,

Two more very enjoyable and telling videos of your monumental layout undertaking! Thank you!

You mentioned (again, I believe) the issue with TMMC. Have you tried Legacy? I don't mean for you to buy one, but maybe one of your friends has an extra one that you could borrow and see if it would have any fewer issues. Installation could not be simpler with just the one wire required from the base to an outer rail.

My Legacy, which I run together with DCS, has been totally trouble free since I added a six-foot ground wire between two track levels at one point. My much smaller double main (about 275 feet) has roughly 100 feet on the upper and lower levels, but only six feet exhibited signal problems, and these disappeared with the ground wire. Total track on my layout is just over 900 feet.

I run mostly Legacy engines, but have TMCC as well and these run just fine with the Legacy base and remote.

Just a thought...

Thanks again for the update and the videos.

Alex

Great videos, Elliot!  The layout is really taking shape and it must be very exciting to see it reach this stage.

What do you anticipate will be the minimum staffing levels to have an operating session?

Art

That is one nice impressive layout! Bet it is really a good feeling to have reached this point. I am going to have to watch those videos a couple more times to get the layout down a little better (I think I have said that here before?). Might keep me busy the rest of the week.

Nice to see things running.

Randy - In addition to the 25 trains that can be stored in the big yard, there is a second smaller yard that can hold 7 more. At least 3 of those slots will hold my Triple Crown train and UP and Milwaukee Road steam passenger specials. The nice thing about the small yard is the trains aren't stacked 5 deep, it's just one train per track, so they are available anytime. That should keep operating sessions from getting dull.

Bob - You do ask the right questions! That's not to say that anyone else is asking the wrong questions, I'm happy to answer all. It's just that you and I view our railroads in a similar way, which is different from most in the 3 rail world.

There's no reason not to use the tracks to capacity. Each of the 5 "parking spaces" is 24 feet long. The trains will be limited to a max of 15 cars, though 10 to 12 would be preferred. That will result in leaving a little "air" in the yard, but if every train was 10 cars, that would be 250 cars down there. Advancing the trains in the queue is what I call the "yard hostler" job. Not very glamorous, but vital to operations. That position will be located next to the dispatcher in the "pan handle" space  in one corner of the train room, and will have a monitor to watch the six video cameras. Eventually, I would like the computer to take over this function. With the CMRI and JMRI  combo, this should be very doable. It's just going to take a while.

As for the track designations in the hidden yard, they aren't necessarily by direction of travel, they are by railroad. Tracks 1,2 and 3 have access to both helix tracks. The CP track on the outside only goes up to the main level. The BNSF track on the inside goes all the way up and has 4 switches on it allowing access to all levels. That was the track being used in the videos. Tracks 4 and 5 only have access to the BNSF helix. Track 3 is designated for Empire builders. Right now I own three. We'll see about getting a fourth and a fifth. They are all interchangeable. A lot of the freight trains will just go through with no on stage destination. For those trains, the operator will get a pack of car cards for the train, with no waybills and a simple train designation in the engine card pocket. Between sessions, I can change things around. I'll keep it in mind. I'm anxious to see how this thing behaves with an actual crew.

BTW I got the magazine and the video. Great article and photos, haven't had a chance to watch the video yet. Maybe tonight.

Alex - I have had the Legacy base and cab-2 for 3 years now. I tried to set it up when I got it, and thought I followed the instructions, but all my trains took off at full speed (no command signal). I've pursued it no further. In my world Legacy still has drawbacks, because I favor simplicity and low cost over features. I will always use the TMCC command base because I own nine cab-1's. I'd like to get it working using the Y cable. I really only bought it for one engine, the Milwaukee Road S-3, which I still haven't taken out of the box.

Art - Hard to say how many people it would take. With 9 cab-1's and a dispatcher, that's 10. However, a lot of jobs would run better with a second person, so 15+. It could still be fun and interesting with as few as 4 or 5. I'm going to have to build a crew from scratch, and the 3 rail locals that I know have no interest in operation, so I'm going to have to try and draw from the NMRA group. I'll know more after the layout tour, which is looking more like next fall.

RTR12 - I'll have to admit, I slept really well last night. Satisfaction and exhaustion will do that. I have a couple videos that I want to do that will help everyone understand the layout better. The first will be a virtual tour of the real world that I'm modelling using Google maps and earth. The second will be a narrated, non-train's eye view going around the layout. The two combined should allow you to put all the pieces together.

John - I almost forgot why I was building this thing. It feels really good to run trains again. There are still bugs that have to be worked out, but it is not insurmountable like Lee Willis always worried about. It's just a laundry list of little challenges. Once discovered, most don't take long to fix, and once done, they should stay done for a very long time. Fix what's wrong, and keep moving forward.

The videos you have planned sound very interesting, I'll be watching for them. It sounds like you have it all planned out very well. I guess you would have to in order to build something like that.

Hi Ellot

 Nice to see the layout and the handsome understudy in the video waving at the trains. Have you made any decisions on how to complete your backdrops?

Thanks again

Ray Marion

Elliot

Absolutely superb!!!!

Apologies if these questions were asked earlier but:

1. It looks like your track is fixed directly to the wood base, Any reason you did not go with any cork roadbed?

2. On the helix why did you embed the track into the wood?

Too bad you live so far from Long Island I'd love to help with scenicing the layout

Steve

This is an incredible layout. Good luck and I hope you are able to make it all come together as planned!

Thanks Steve. I've never been a big fan of cork, I always thought it was too thin. Beside, 3000 feet of it would get a little spendy. The track is only directly on the plywood where it won't be seen. Everywhere else it is on something. Most of it is on fiberboard, one test section is on foam, and a good chunk of the main level is on Homasote, which I made on the table saw, from some sheets that I got over 40 years ago. The fiberboard and the foam were carved into a roadbed profile in place. I still have some carving to do on the fiberboard. It just takes a sharp blade and some elbow grease. It's only about $10 for a 4x8 sheet.

The wood in the hidden yards and helixes, again where it won't be seen, does a few things for me:

1. It gives me consistent track spacing
2. It locks the track in place by clamping down the tie ends. No track screws needed
3. It helps me to lay smooth curves. The inside curve is secured to the drawn line, then the Gargraves can be wrapped around it

DPUSNA11, I was downstairs this afternoon and tried to run some different trains, but met with frustration when engines that used to make it around the layout stalled out with TMCC signal issues. I'm going to start a log book and go engine by engine listing each one's behavior.

That is over the top, wow!! Really enjoyed the trip around your layout, thanks for posting and please keep us updated as you progress.

Jeff

Hey Ray, doesn't everyone wave at trains when they go by? Backdrops are off my radar these days. They are going to stay plain blue for a good long time. I still have more to hang, and a bunch of other stuff that needs to be done first.

Thanks Jeff, and I will!

WOW!!!! Your layout is awesome and HUGE. Thanks for the videos they really show your fine craftsmanship and complexity of the track plan. Congrats on this milestone accomplishment!! Looking forward to more updates.

Well I see "someone" is gonna have a lot of fun with that "ton" of ballast you got lying around

Thanks Pete and welcome aboard. Regular updates are posted the last day of each month, late in the evening. This one was a special mid month. Also in December I do a year end review. This has been a great year!

 Yeah Doug, but first I have to deal with that gallon and a half of rail paint. I was thinking of starting with the south wall, upper deck, over at Interstate (railroad far west end) and just keep working east. Paint, ballast, paint, ballast. The only terrain work on the whole upper deck is the embankment for the hump at the east end of aisle one. There's still some roadbed that needs to be carved, but the whole upper deck could be done in a couple months.

Elliot congratulations on reaching this milestone. It is everything that you had hoped for and more... Simply fantastic!

Look forward to the additional videos. Have a wonderful Christmas.

Elliot

Thanks for the responses, interesting how you laid the helix curves.  On your next layout (just kidding) I'll show you a method for marking the center and cut lines needed when creating sub road bed.  

Appreciate the updates and sure hope Rich Melvin in following your progress as this is a MUST for a GREAT LAYOUT video!!!

Steve