Need advice, third rail division Sunset models

I nave many 3rd Rail engines both steam and diesel.  They are all outstanding.

The details are usually better than the MTH or Lionel models and are road specific.  For example, Lionel and MTH sometimes take a generic diesel and paint it in different road names.  3rd Rail makes their models accurate to a specific railroad.

The diesels use a single can motor drive instead of the double motors in Lionel or MTH.  Many people think that this is a superior drive system than Lionel's of MTH's system.

 3rd Rail uses a licensed Lionel sound system.  It doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the Lionel's Vision Line sounds but is fine for me and most modelers.

After sale support from 3rd Rail is outstanding.  

I don't think you can wrong with a 3rd Rail product.

Agreed 3rd rail products are superior!

I own six Sunset/3rd Rail locomotives with two more on order. They are beautiful, correctly detailed models that run well. On the one occasion where service was required out of warranty, Sunset did the repair promptly and at a reasonable price. I am a satisfied customer of Sunset products.

MELGAR

They make nice display pieces. 

bigtruckpete posted:

They make nice display pieces. 

Pete

Are you inferring that they aren't good running pieces?  If so, is this based on personal experience?

My third rail diesels are excellent runners, especially the current generation with ball bearings at every axle and all axles powered.  The slow speed operation and amount of torque in these are excellent.  I have over 20 3rd Rail diesels in 2 and 3 rail.  Some of the early ones did have some issues, but every generation has improved upon the last one.  The SD7 / SD9 project was outstanding and the E8 / E9s will be as well based on hands on experience with one.

enginEErjon posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

They make nice display pieces. 

Pete

Are you inferring that they aren't good running pieces?  If so, is this based on personal experience?

In my opinion, he doesn't know what he's talking about! At last count, I have 20+ Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive models, plus one of the new EMD demonstrator SD7 models. They all operate fine, and our layout is large enough with 072 or larger curves, so we can handle 50 car trains with ease.

I have PRR electrics and I am more than pleased.

Lou N

Seven Sunset locos here. One used. Two supposedly new but bought off ebay. Four bought new directly from Sunset. I've had trouble with three. Strangely enough, the used one and the two, supposedly new, bought off ebay. Hmmmmm . . .

Nothing is perfect but Sunset is likely about as reliable a purchase of O locomotives as there is these days. 

I have 7 diesels and 6 older brass steamers.     Actually one of the steamers is the newest release L1 Mikado.     All run very well and have great low speed performance.    None of the steamers came with sound, which is OK with me.    All of my diesels have teh QSI decoder/sound systems.    They are good too.   

Remember these are scale models, not toy trains, and are probably a more fragile than MTH or Lionel products.    My diesels all have the Pennsy Train phone antennas which should be handled a little carefully.    

I love the single motor drives in the diesels.    They are much smoother running than the dual motor ones I have.  

all in all, I am very pleased with Sunset products.

I have 6 steam locos, 2 diesels today with 2 more coming on Monday and 14 on order. The detail on them is fantastic with a lot of separately applied road specific details. The diesels run incredibly smooth at 100 speed steps and the slow speed operation is great with the single motor horizontal drive. and they sound quite nice. The steam locos are extremely well detailed and run very well too. My only grip is the lighting on the 3 rail diesels just into right. The cab lights and number boards are always on. I'm not really sure there is a solution for that in 3 rail so I understand why its like that. I plan on unhooking all those lights. but other than that, I m very happy with my 3rd Rail and Golden Gate Depot purchases. Scott's customer service and communication is fantastic and you wont be better taken care from any one else

To amplify on one statement up above.  If you are a three rail guy and place big emphasis on sound, smoke and other similar Command system features over scale accuracy -- then Lionel Legacy command equipped engines or MTH Protosounds 2 or 3 DCS command equipped engines may be for you.   Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS are proprietary command systems and so are not available to Sunset 3rd Rail for use.   So, Sunset uses an open source command system based on Lionel's original TMCC command system which Lionel has made generally available.  It is the Electric Railroad Company's (ERR) (a subsidiary of Lionel) version of TMCC command control and sound.  ERR has excellent control capabilities, but is limited in the variety of sounds (whistles and bells, etc) available.

On the other hand if scale fidelity is more important to you and - IF Sunset has or is building the model you want then you have that choice.  Sunset 3rd rail TMCC engines are manufactured and tested to run right out of the box.  And I've found both the numerous 3 rail and 2 rail ones I've owned to be every bit as reliable as the Lionel and MTH engines I've owned.  The scale accuracy of Sunset engines means many they have many small fragile parts. So, are at the present time more fragile than Lionel and MTH engines.  But, with the movement to more and more detail this is changing.  The Sunset horizontal ball bearing drive system is (in my opinion) vastly superior - especially low speed performance - to the drive systems used by Lionel and MTH.   

My 3rd Rail Sunset locos are some of my favorites......

To add to what AUSTIN BILL stats above, Sunset/3rd Rail has produced prototypically accurate models of steam locomotives that neither Lionel nor MTH would even touch! For example, models that I already own:

1) CB&Q 4-6-4 Hudsons, all three versions. CB&Q 4-8-4 Northerns, two different versions, three different road numbers. CB&Q 2-10-4 Colorados, both versions with different road numbers.

2) Northern Pacific A class 4-8-4 Northerns, three different versions (I have the A4 with the big pedestal tender). NP Z class Challengers, in two different versions, and various road numbers (I have the Z8).

3) Southern Pacific MT class Mountains in 3 different versions, with various road numbers (I have the MT-4). SP P class Pacifics, in various versions in various road numbers (I have the P-10 with the skyline casing). SP GS-4 Daylights in various versions and road numbers (I have the black version with removable skirts). SP 4-10-2 3 cylinder SP class, in two different road numbers (I have #5021). SP AC-9 2-8-8-4 in both coal and oil (haven't saved enough money for THAT one yet).

Too add on further to AUSTIN BILL's and HOT WATER's comments, I also have 4 brass steam locomotives.  All PRR prototypes including two K4s, an M1a and a J1.  Since they are two rail, they have only had limited run time in testing, but wonderfully detailed locomotives and very accurate for the price. 

"They make nice display pieces." 

I've had mixed results with them. The looks are usually a tad - but just a tad - superior (including best steam loco paint) to Lionel's and MTH's best.

Operation (and quality of construction), my (and a friend's) experience has been all over the map. I have steam from them (ups and downs), one electric (NYC T-3; so far, so good) and one now re-painted ex-BNSF GE Dash-9 (a lost cause) from the pre-command control era.

Picking up on Jonathan's way earlier comment.  It's been my experience that over the years Sunset has made steady progress in the categories of reliability and operability right out of the box -- in both two and three rail versions -- with and without Command (Legacy, TMCC, DCS NMRA DCC) systems.  The fragility of the small detailed parts remains the same.  The price we pay for scale accuracy and detail.  That is, progress in the command systems and in the mechanical systems.   And he backs his product 100%.  I've been purchasing Sunset engines since 1998 and am a satisfied customer.  (No, I don't work for him and he's not my brother-in-law)

And as Hot Water says, if Sunset happens to build a model you happen to want.  Go for it. 

Or get a bunch of guys together and ask Scott Mann (Sunset) to take on the project.  And whether you initiated it or not be sure to pre-order it.  Sunset needs a certain quantity of pre-orders of each project/model.  If Scott Mann get's that quantity of pre-orders you can pretty much count on getting it in the general timeframe he advertises. Give or take a reasonable variation for something this custom and in relatively small quantities compared to the other Mfg'rs.    And you don't pay until just before he ships.

To give credit where it's due.  I will say that when I belonged to a 3 rail modular club (before switching to two rail and NMRA DCC 5 years ago) -- a club which attended a lot of regional shows -- I was hesitant to take my Sunset steam engines due to the shake, rattle and roll and packing and unpacking and handling.  While they travelled better,  even Lionel and MTH and Atlas O had screws come loose in that environment.

I run all my locomotives with no fear.    IMO transporting and handling locomotives does more damage than running them.   

I previously owned a Third Rail Sunset Models Rock Island locomotive - a finely crafted product. I sold it at auction (along with many other RI-related trains and action accessories) when I liquidated my collection -- a decision I now regret.  When Third Rail Sunset Models announced (in 2016) production of the Rock Island TA diesel train set with articulated passenger cars and Lionel's TMCC built in, I had to have one. As a teenager in the 1950s, I road that train as the Peoria Rocket on trips from Peoria to Chicago.  It's now on order.

I "second the motion" of others who highly praised this manufacturer. They're right, Third Rail locos are highly detailed and therefore fragile. And beautiful.

Mike   (ritrainguy)

 The original poster was inquiring on the quality of 3rd Rail and mentioned he was interested in a NYC set. Big John is correct in that they aren't offering a NYC set. The E7's I believe were the first passenger diesels that replaced steam on the name trains. I kept this copy of Trains magazine for years just for this cover shot. I realize 3rd Rail probably wouldn't be into making a non-prototype. It looks pretty cool to me as the paint and  stripes go with the Dreyfuss cars. They made a run of these cars.  With numerous NYC fans even though not prototypical. It just may sell.

E7s were the first passenger diesels purchased by the NYC.  Much like the NYC's frienemys the PRR, NYC was hesitant let go of steam and when they finally did, they did so in a hurry.  Having said that, the Trains magazine cover is pretty cool.

GG1 4877 posted:

E7s were the first passenger diesels purchased by the NYC.  Much like the NYC's frienemys the PRR, NYC was hesitant let go of steam and when they finally did, they did so in a hurry.  Having said that, the Trains magazine cover is pretty cool.

Yes, that artwork by either Ben Dedic or Harry Bockowitz , of the EMC/EMD Engineering Department Styling Group, is indeed VERY COOL. Although the NYC did NOT purchase and E Units at that time.

Dave_C posted:

 I realize 3rd Rail probably wouldn't be into making a non-prototype.

Considering Sunset was willing to produce the ACE 3000, if enough reservations were received, these NYC E6s could fall into the same category.  If Scott got 20 reservations for this paint scheme, he just might produce it.

enginEErjon posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

They make nice display pieces. 

Pete

Are you inferring that they aren't good running pieces?  If so, is this based on personal experience?

No, it is not a comment on run quality.

I consider the detail level much higher than what you'd find with MTH or Lionel. More on the museum quality level that you can display. 

bigtruckpete posted:

enginEErjon posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

They make nice display pieces. 

Pete

Are you inferring that they aren't good running pieces?  If so, is this based on personal experience?

No, it is not a comment on run quality.

I consider the detail level much higher than what you'd find with MTH or Lionel.

Isn't that a GOOD THING?

More on the museum quality level that you can display. 

Curious statement,,,,,as an operator, I run all of my Sunset/3rd Rail steam models, without concerns.

Hot Water posted:

enginEErjon posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

They make nice display pieces. 

Pete

Are you inferring that they aren't good running pieces?  If so, is this based on personal experience?

In my opinion, he doesn't know what he's talking about! At last count, I have 20+ Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive models, plus one of the new EMD demonstrator SD7 models. They all operate fine, and our layout is large enough with 072 or larger curves, so we can handle 50 car trains with ease.

It's always best to ask the person who wrote the comment what they mean as opposed to guessing. You may want to read my response as to my comment about the high level of detail that is not provided by most other 3 rail manufacturers. 

Hot Water posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

enginEErjon posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

They make nice display pieces. 

Pete

Are you inferring that they aren't good running pieces?  If so, is this based on personal experience?

No, it is not a comment on run quality.

I consider the detail level much higher than what you'd find with MTH or Lionel.

Isn't that a GOOD THING?

More on the museum quality level that you can display. 

Curious statement,,,,,as an operator, I run all of my Sunset/3rd Rail steam models, without concerns.

 

Yes, it's a great thing to have such nice detail and road specific details. 

Some people run 'em and some collect 'em!! 

As usual you guys are right regarding it being an E7 and not 6 like I thought. It was manufactured in China in 2011 and was the grey ABA set. Could you please tell me what you think of these engines? Are they good Runners do they have good sound and is the paint scheme correct as it seems a little light to me. Also are they up to date as far as Electronics compared to newer stuff now?

Many thanks, Jerry

Jerry,

In full disclosure, I consult for 3rd Rail and the E7 was my second project for them.  With the original E7s and specifically the NYC versions there are a few issues to be aware of.  This was the first plastic diesel by 3rd Rail.  The electronics are fine, they have TMCC and sound, and the drive is generally very good.  The one mechanical issue I have heard of relates to the drive shafts for the worm gear.  They had a tendency to break.  Newer and better replacements are available though.  The other issue, is look for a 2nd run unit.  They were offered in both the original "as-delivered" reverse color scheme and the more familiar lightning bolt scheme in the 2nd run and the colors are very accurate.

Having said that, it is still the most accurate E7 offered in 3 rail down to the correct "Phase II" window configuration for NYC.  For the price, which was much less then than a current model, they are actually a pretty good buy too.  You don't see them come up for sale all that often.

I have not had issues with mine, but they are 2 rail and don't see a lot of run time because I don't have a 2 rail layout in place yet. 

The E8s that are arriving are certainly generations ahead of the E7 with more weight, a greatly improved drive, and benefit from lots of experience with previous models. 

So.....with 19 other pre-orderers, l can get 3rd Rail to gin out a Little River 2-4-4-2, a McKeen car, and a small two truck Heisler? Other 19, squeak up! Or will it take more preorders, realistically?

Very disappointed in their latest Bessemer SD9s.  Missing steps, cab doors not painted, Bell looks like a snow cone not even close to being correct and coupler randomly fires.  Happy with their older brass steam but not buying their new stuff anymore. 

colorado hirailer posted:

So.....with 19 other pre-orderers, l can get 3rd Rail to gin out a Little River 2-4-4-2, a McKeen car, and a small two truck Heisler? Other 19, squeak up! Or will it take more preorders, realistically?

The rough number of orders it takes to get a 3rd Rail project to move forward is roughly the following:

Brass locomotive:  100 units.

Plastic Diesel:  750 units with 20 unit minimum per road name with road specific details.

GGD Passenger Car:  2000 cars total per run (I.E. 250 aluminum 8 car sets)

Bessemer643 posted:

Very disappointed in their latest Bessemer SD9s.  Missing steps, cab doors not painted, Bell looks like a snow cone not even close to being correct and coupler randomly fires.  Happy with their older brass steam but not buying their new stuff anymore. 

Kurt,

Sorry to hear you are disappointed.  The missing step issue is one that Scott offered to provide parts for.  It was correct on the drawings but missed at the factory.  I'm not sure if anyone did request steps.  I know I did not on my PRR unit. 

The bell was a concession to the factory to stick with one bell type so DMIR and Bessemer got the same type of bell that the Southern, Norfolk Southern, and Black River had.  There were more total units in those three roads, so we had to compromise.  The detail matrix for that project was likely the the most complex ever done in a single run likely by any manufacturer as there were 27 roads offered at once and a lot of variety in details. 

As to the coupler issue, that should be a warranty item and I would contact Scott.  I haven't experienced a coupler issue, so it could be something with the board. 

I'm curious also what was missing on the cab doors.  Can you send me a photo at my email address on record in my profile?  We had the drawings reviewed by a few Bessemer modelers.

SD-7/9 model

Pennsy E6

Decapod top shelf.

Golden Gate  coaling tower.

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the reply I appreciate it. I assume the second run is the ones with the more familiar color scheme with the lightning. As far as the drive gear if there is an issue is it easily replaced by a lay person like myself? What would you consider a good price for a like-new Aba? The ones I'm looking at we're built in 2011 in China? Could you possibly send me a picture of yours if they are the second run.

Much thanks, Jerry

Jerry,

Yes, they were run in the "traditional" lightning stripe scheme.  The original run was done in 2011.  I can post pictures of mine, but they are two rail PRR units.  They do show you the body style well  as they are "phase II" E7s as well.  As I recall, they originally retailed for $500 and "A" unit and $350 for a "B" unit.  If you can find an ABA, probably $1200 or less for a low use set is fair.  There is a Texas Special one on eBay now for $900 as an A-A so I'm probably not too far off. 

If you look at my photos of the E8s I posted on the forum today which just arrived this morning, you will see how the E8 compares.  It is a much better model, but it 6 years later and a lot of experience later.  You may contact Scott Mann about seeing if a NYC set is available.  They are more expensive, but very high quality.  The only issue for you is that NYC never bought E8b units.

I have not replaced a driveshaft, but the entire drive is easily accessed once the fuel tank is removed.  I can't think it would be too difficult if you are mechanically inclined.

I'll see if I can dig out my E7 this evening for some photos!

I provided Jonathan P with data for the Seaboard E7 and I'm very pleased with the resulting model.

There was a couple of things that Seaboard had on their engines that were not duplicated on the model, but they're things I can add.  If you know anything about the Seaboard, you'll know they had some oddball equipment, these minor items fall into that category.

 My model had the problem with the drive shaft, Scott Mann sent me the parts to fix it.

 I also provided them with data for the upcoming Silver Meteor, I can't wait to see this in production.

What I appreciate about 3rd Rail and GGD is they solicit a variety of modelers to help provide accurate data when making these models.

Buy with confidence!

Jerry,  you probably knew the answers before you asked the question.  With the answers you received when are you going to place your order?  John in Lansing, ILL

Dave_C posted:

 The original poster was inquiring on the quality of 3rd Rail and mentioned he was interested in a NYC set. Big John is correct in that they aren't offering a NYC set. The E7's I believe were the first passenger diesels that replaced steam on the name trains. I kept this copy of Trains magazine for years just for this cover shot. I realize 3rd Rail probably wouldn't be into making a non-prototype. It looks pretty cool to me as the paint and  stripes go with the Dreyfuss cars. They made a run of these cars.  With numerous NYC fans even though not prototypical. It just may sell.

In the past some hobby shops stepped up to reserving the minimum.  That has not happened in the past couple of years so Scott has made the same offer to any individual.  One of the nice parts to the offer is the person guaranteeing the minimum will get to work with Jonathan to get the precise colors and details they want.