Need Help Setting up Operating Track Section with AIU

Mike,

When I press the activation buttons on my DCS Remote, I hear activation, and get a short burst of "dump" but then it quits. So to dump, I have to press the activation button 10 times for it to complete a dump cycle.

Are you using the correct soft key to operate the unloading function?

When using an ACC port, pressing the ACT soft key momentarily activates the accessory. Pressing the ON soft key activates the accessory continuously until the OFF soft key is pressed.

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Barry,

thanks for the reply. But it seems that I get a pulse response no matter which button I press. Thanks for helping. 

Unscrew the 2 wires going into the AIU ACC port for dumping.  Manually touch them together.  Does the dumping behavior change?

Separately, you should be able to "hear" an AIU ACC internal relay click when you press ACT (or press ON)...and click again when you release ACT (or press OFF). 

Mike,

I worked with a forum member over the phone to debug the exact same kind of issue. It turned out that the TIU wasn't getting power other than the USB connection to the WIU.

Make sure that the TIU is always getting power either from Fixed #1 In or the Aux. Power port. Otherwise, while there's power enough from the USB port to throw the relay, there isn't enough power to hold it closed, causing the loading track to just "burp".

I had that same problem with a Rev L TIU.  After removing that TIU from service for repeated failures of train control circuits & not wanting to throw good $$$ after bad, I replaced it with a new TIU and problem went away.

Barry,

I believe the TIU has power. Hopefully its not a bad unit as happened to RJR. I will check the wires into the AIU as Stan suggests -- though it was quite difficult to get all the wires including the jumper into the right ports in the AIU so I'm reluctant to do this, but I guess this is part of the process. 

Thanks.

Do you have your TIU powered through the AUX port?  If so, what power supply are you using?  To make sure power is adequate, try removing the plug from AUX and powering the TIU by applying track voltage to FIXED 1.

Let's pin the issue down more precisely.  Disconnect the track section, and do the same thing, listening for the relay clicks.  When you press and HOLD activate (not on/off), does the relay click once or twice?

splashmike posted:

... I will check the wires into the AIU as Stan suggests -- though it was quite difficult to get all the wires including the jumper into the right ports in the AIU so I'm reluctant to do this, but I guess this is part of the process. 

You can leave the wiring to the AIU in-place.  Fabricate a U-shaped jumper wire to momentarily short the 2 contacts on the ACC port in question.  That is, there's enough exposed metal on the AIU screw-terminals contacts to "manually" press the jumper against the IN and 1 terminals.  This does not harm the AIU.  

This is low-voltage so you could even use a bent metal paper-clip or even a pair of metal tweezers to straddle the terminals.  But whatever you feel comfortable doing!

RJR,

I have the TIU powered through the Fixed Voltage In1 connection utilizing a Z100o Controller. 

I believe that when I hold Activate I get two very quick clicks. Sort of like clip clop, if that makes any sense. 

Stan,

I created a jumper as you suggested and tried to place it against the connections but it did not seem to change the way the AIU was reacting to my button presses. 

This may have nothing to do with the dump issue I'm having, but the uncouple function seems to only work on one end of a car. I tested two cars and only one side of each seems to react to the uncouple activation. 

Mike,

I created a jumper as you suggested and tried to place it against the connections but it did not seem to change the way the AIU was reacting to my button presses.

If you basically shorted together the two wires that are connected to the AIU's Acc port and the problem persisted, that would seem to indicate that the problem is something other than the AIU port, i.e., you have the uncoupler wired incorrectly or the uncoupler mechanism itself is somehow defective.

but the uncouple function seems to only work on one end of a car.

Exactly what kind of uncoupling/unloading track are you using and does it work with it's manual controller?

If the track uses a magnet to uncouple, it's truly difficult to believe that the track could know one end of a car from the other. A magnet either works or it doesn't work.

Mike, I know exactly what the double click sounds like.  That's what happened to me.

As to your second problem:  wiring an uncoupling track to an AIU requires some tricky wiring.  This should have nothing to do with the doubleclick.  When properly done, one extra rail is hot, the other common, and the magnet dead, for unload.  For uncouple, both extra rails are hot and ther magnet is on.  I'm not so sure your hookup to the AIU is correct, at least not for a UCS or RCS.

Right now, I don't have any uncoupling tracks connected to AIUs, to avoid burnouts if I presse the wrong button.  I have the components to cut power after a bit, but haven't gotten around to installing it.

I dug out the attached schematic, using 2 buttons.  Note that the center contact of the switches, which equates to the IN terminal on an AIU, are connected to the track terminals that lead to each of the control rails.  Both control rails are normally ground.  When the uncouple button is pressed, both control rail  are hot and the magnet activated.  When the unload button is pressed, the control rail that has the magnet attached to it, stays ground, and the other becomes hot.  I have had this system on may layout for years, on a half-dozen unload sites. 

I have removed the slide shoes from all of my operating cars.  There is a grain of wheat incandescent bulb strategically located neat the center rail, which is connected to the two controol rails and therefore lights when the unload button is pressed.  The cars have a sensor which is triggered when precisely over an lit lamp, and through a small circuit activates a relay that feeds hot from a center roller to one side of the operating mechanism.

OK. I'm going to do a complete rewire to make sure I did not screw the wiring up. I'll report back when that's done. FYI - the MTH track section I'm using is the Real Trax 40-1008 Operating Uncoupling Track Section. Thanks, all. 

splashmike posted:

RJR,

I have the TIU powered through the Fixed Voltage In1 connection utilizing a Z100o Controller. 

I believe that when I hold Activate I get two very quick clicks. Sort of like clip clop, if that makes any sense. 

For the ACC port, if you press the ACT button, you should hear just the "clip".  When you release the ACT button, you should then hear the "clop."  Separately, if you press the ON button, you should hear the "clip" only.  Then, when you press the OFF button, you should hear "clop". 

If you hear "clip-clop" when you press and hold down ACT, that's a problem.  Likewise if you hear "clip-clop" when you press the ON button, that's a problem.

You do not need anything connected to the ACC port screw-terminals (1-IN-2) to hear this behavior.  So you might also try it on a different or unused ACC port to test if it's just something about the ACC port(s) connected to the Operating Track Section.

To make sure we're talking apples-apples, fire one of your SW ports - doesn't matter whether straight or diverge.  You should hear "clip-clop."  The clip and clop are separated by exactly 0.5 seconds every time.

splashmike posted:

Stan,

I created a jumper as you suggested and tried to place it against the connections but it did not seem to change the way the AIU was reacting to my button presses. 

To be clear, the idea was to press the jumper against the screw-terminals with the system powered up and the dump car sitting on the Operating Track Section.  When you press the jumper against the "1" and "IN" screw-terminals for the ACC port in question, the dump car should start dumping for as long as you hold the jumper against the screw-terminals.  Pull the jumper away and the dumping should stop.  Press the jumper again and the dumping should continue.  Etc.

This experiment was not to test or change the AIU behavior.  It was to test the wiring to the Operating Track Section.  By pressing the jumper wire against the 2 screw-terminals you are simulating the AIU relay closings.  As long as you hold the jumper against the 2 terminals, it's as if you are pressing the ACT button.

Stan - Good news! I tried the jumper again as per your last e-mail and in fact the dump mechanism activated and worked just fine running through its entire cycle without stopping until I removed the jumper. So what the heck does this now mean? Thanks. 

RJR,

I seem to be getting the clip clop when I press either "on" on "act".

Also, I checked my switches and they seems to be working just fine. 

Thanks.

That's actually bad news. 

I'm thinking your have a problem with the TIU.  Can you re-do the experiment of listening for the clip-clop relay sounds when you activate an ACC port as I detailed a few posts back?

As Barry alluded in a previous post, if the TIU does not provide enough power to the AIU, an AIU relay might only get enough power to briefly turn on but then starves itself and must turn off.  Even if you provide adequate power to the TIU (via Fixed1 or TIU AUX IN) there is a special power supply within the TIU that takes the TIU power and converts it to a voltage that the AIU relays use.  It's possible that there's a problem with this voltage conversion circuit.  Your AIU SW ports work because those relays only turn on momentarily (1/2 sec) to do their thing.

Barry,

Responding to yours, while I agree with your logic, I just repeated the behavior using Stan's jumper test. I activated the uncouple function using the jumper and it worked on one side of the car, but not the other. I then repeated this with a second car. Weird. 

Our posts crossed.  You did re-do the ACC port clip-clop test.

But to be absolutely clear:

1a) When you press ACT, you get clip-clop.  When you release ACT, you get nothing.

1b) When press ON, you get clip-clop.  When you then press OFF, you get nothing.

2) And when you try this on other ACC ports (the screw-terminals do not have to be connected to anything) you get the same rapid clip-clop behavior.

Stan,

I tried setting up a test accessory address and I think I'm still getting the clip-clop. Its quick but I think its the same behavior as the accessory that the dump mechanism is wired to. Uggh. Does this mean time to replace the TIU?

splashmike posted:

Barry,

Responding to yours, while I agree with your logic, I just repeated the behavior using Stan's jumper test. I activated the uncouple function using the jumper and it worked on one side of the car, but not the other. I then repeated this with a second car. Weird. 

If you turn the car around, does the same side of the car not work?

Stan,

Responding to yours:

Our posts crossed.  You did re-do the ACC port clip-clop test.

But to be absolutely clear:

1a) When you press ACT, you get clip-clop.  When you release ACT, you get nothing. YES

1b) When press ON, you get clip-clop.  When you then press OFF, you get nothing. YES

2) And when you try this on other ACC ports (the screw-terminals do not have to be connected to anything) you get the same rapid clip-clop behavior. YES

I tried a third car and both sides seemed to work. Not sure why the two I tested with originally only worked on one side. I evidently have some gremlins in the system. 

splashmike posted:

Stan,

I tried setting up a test accessory address and I think I'm still getting the clip-clop. Its quick but I think its the same behavior as the accessory that the dump mechanism is wired to. Uggh. Does this mean time to replace the TIU?

First thing I'd do is find a buddy who will let you swap your AIU or TIU to confirm the problem follows the TIU.  As discussed you don't need any of the AIU screw-terminals wired up to perform the "clip-clop test".

Otherwise, I'd inquire in a separate thread about the feasibility (cost) of a TIU repair with the symptoms as described.  Hopefully a service tech would comment.  I've got to believe this problem has been encountered before.  

Mike,

• Unplug any power into the TIU's Aux. Power port.
• Turn off any power into the TIU's Fixed #1 In or Fixed #1 Out.
• Unplug the WIU from the TIU's USB port.

Now, ensure that the TIU's red LED is out. If it is, continue below:

• Put 18 volts into Fixed #1 IN and ensure that the TIU's red LED is on. If it isn't on, stop and let us know.
• If the red LED is on, connect the WIU to the TIU's USB port.
• Wait for the WIU's LED's to stabilize.
• Attempt to operate the uncoupling track by tapping "On".
• If the track function works continuously, Tap "Off" and then tap and hold "Activate" for several seconds.

If that works as well, the TIU's power supply is fine and the problem is that the Aux. Power port, or what was connected to it, has a problem.

Splashmike, I fear that you have the same problem I did.  If you know anyone with a TIU, I'd do as Stan suggests: bring your AIU to his/her place and see what happens.  I can assure you of one thing:  adequacy of power to the AIU was not my issue.

If I swapped the Rev L and put in a solid ancient Rev G, the AIUs worked perfectly.  I spoke to a true service guru, and he had never seen the issue and off the top if his head couldn't think of a cause.

How old are the TIU & the AIU?  Even if off warranty, I suggest you call MTH tech in Columbia and describe the situation.

RJR,

My TIU and AIU are probably from 2008 or so, figure about 10 years old. No buds into trains and this conversation is way past my local train shop who sold me the equipment. Thanks for your suggestions. 

• Unplug any power into the TIU's Aux. Power port. I DO NOT HAVE ANY POWER INTO THE TIU'S AUX POWER PORT. 
• Turn off any power into the TIU's Fixed #1 In or Fixed #1 Out. THIS WOULD BASICALLY BE MY Z1000 CONTROLLER. I'VE TURNED IT OFF. 
• Unplug the WIU from the TIU's USB port. NOT SURE WHAT A WIU IS, BUT AS I DON'T HAVE A USB PORT ON THE TIU, PERHAPS ITS MOOT. TIU AND AIU ARE ABOUT 10 YEARS OLD. (YES, ITS TAKEN ME THAT LONG TO GET MY ACT TOGETHER.)

Now, ensure that the TIU's red LED is out. If it is, continue below:

• Put 18 volts into Fixed #1 IN and ensure that the TIU's red LED is on. If it isn't on, stop and let us know. LIGHT IS ON. CAN'T MEASURE VOLTAGE IN, BUT CONTROL KNOB IS TO 3/4s ON THE CONTROLLER.
• If the red LED is on, connect the WIU to the TIU's USB port. WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM HERE, SEE THIRD RESPONSE ABOVE. 
• Wait for the WIU's LED's to stabilize.
• Attempt to operate the uncoupling track by tapping "On".
• If the track function works continuously, Tap "Off" and then tap and hold "Activate" for several seconds.

If that works as well, the TIU's power supply is fine and the problem is that the Aux. Power port, or what was connected to it, has a problem. I'M A BIT OF A NOOB WITH ALL THIS, SO I HATE TO ASK, BUT SHOULD I HAVE SOMETHING CONNECTED TO AUX POWER?

Mike,

I'M A BIT OF A NOOB WITH ALL THIS, SO I HATE TO ASK, BUT SHOULD I HAVE SOMETHING CONNECTED TO AUX POWER?

If you do not and you also have no power into Fixed #1, that's most likely why your ACC port isn't working properly.

Just do what I said above, please, and report back.

Barry,

Not sure if you saw all of my replies in bold above but I tried to do what you suggested.

Thanks. 

Mike, notwithstanding the age of your units, I would still call MTH.  I would also suggest emailing GGG, who is often on this forum and is a crackerjack DCS tech, and asking him if he has any ideas.

I assume from your emails that you have never had the TIU & AIU hooked up together before.

• Remove the Z-Controller from Fixed #1 Input and disconnect anything from the TIU's Fixed #1 Out.
• Now, ensure that the TIU's red LED is out. If it is, continue below.
• Connect your brick-type transformer directly into Fixed #1 IN. Do not use the Z-Controller. If you have no way to connect the brick directly to Fixed #1 Input, instead connect it directly to the TIU's Aux. Power port.

• Ensure that the TIU's red LED is on. If it isn't on, stop and let us know.
• If the red LED is on, attempt to operate the uncoupling track by tapping the "On" soft key.
• If the track function works continuously, Tap the "Off" soft key and then tap and hold the "Activate" soft key for several seconds.

If the works, the TIU's power supply is fine and the problem is possibly due to the Z-Controller.

If it doesn't work, the issue may be the TIU's power supply.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

...

• Connect your brick-type transformer directly into Fixed #1 IN. Do not use the Z-Controller. If you have no way to connect the brick directly to Fixed #1 Input, instead connect it directly to the TIU's Aux. Power port.

Separate from these tests to sort out the AIU issue...if you plan to use the Z-1000 as your power source for the track (running engines) get this adapter cable.  The Z-1000 controller distorts the "pure" AC power signal from the brick before it goes into the TIU.  This distortion never helps DCS command control performance. 

Also, I'd get a low-cost wall-wart adapter (about $2 on eBay, free shipping) to power the TIU via the AUX POWER INPUT connector.  The idea being the TIU "steals" some of the 100 Watts of Z-1000 power from Fixed IN1 to power itself (and the AIU).  By providing a source of power into AUX POWER INPUT to power the TIU itself (and the AIU), you then have more power available to run your engines.  Most wall warts like the one shown below have the correct barrel plug that directly mates with the TIU AUX POWER INPUT connector.  In this case, the adapter supplies 12V DC at up to 2 Amps; that's 24 Watts which is more than adequate to power the TIU itself (and your AIU).

• Remove the Z-Controller from Fixed #1 Input and disconnect anything from the TIU's Fixed #1 Out. DONE.
• Now, ensure that the TIU's red LED is out. If it is, continue below. DONE.
• Connect your brick-type transformer directly into Fixed #1 IN. Do not use the Z-Controller. If you have no way to connect the brick directly to Fixed #1 Input, instead connect it directly to the TIU's Aux. Power port. DONE.

• Ensure that the TIU's red LED is on. If it isn't on, stop and let us know. RED LIGHT IS ON.
• If the red LED is on, attempt to operate the uncoupling track by tapping the "On" soft key.
• If the track function works continuously, Tap the "Off" soft key and then tap and hold the "Activate" soft key for several seconds.

If the works, the TIU's power supply is fine and the problem is possibly due to the Z-Controller. I GET THE CLIP/CLOP SOUND FROM THE AIU, BUT NO UNCOUPLING OR DUMPING ACTION.  BUT I THINK THERE IS AN ISSUE HERE, ALL TRACK POWER WAS LOST WHEN YOU HAD ME REMOVE THE FIXED #1 OUTPUT. THAT OUTPUT GOES TO POWER MY TRACKS.

Thanks.

Mike,

THAT OUTPUT GOES TO POWER MY TRACKS.

Track power has nothing to do with the AIU. It uses power from the TIU to operate.

The only real possibilities that I see at this point are:

• An incorrect entry in the remote for the accessory. Try deleting and re-adding the accessory.
• A defective TIU/AIU cable.
• A defective AIU.
• A defective TIU.

The best way, or really the only way, to find out which of the above is the issue is by substitution for known, good components. Alternately, you could bring everything to another layout (a friend or hobby shop) to test in that environment.

One last thing. If you jumper the two AIU ACC port terminals, "1" and "IN", does the track operate correctly? If it does, that would rule out a wiring issue.

Mike, the terminals on the AIU have nothing to do with your clip-clop problem.  I would not waste money trying to change things.  I don't know how much time you have, but I bet that if you posted where in NY you are, a nearby forumite would come out of the woodwork and offer to let you bring your AIU and TIU over.  First step would be to plug the AIU into another TIU and see if it works.  If it doesn, your TIU is the answer.

Based on my experience, I am 90% sure it is in the TIU.  I doubt it would be the cable. If the uncoupling track is the only accessory you have, I don't know if I'd spend money.  But if you want to go forward, first thing I'd do is email GGG and ask for his opinion.