New layout plan advice

@HJS posted:

Setting up a new layout and would appreciate comments on the electrical design before starting to wire.  New to the forum and appreciate all the great information.   Have spent a lot of time on the forum and have hopefully incorporated a lot of the information in the layout design.  The layout consists of five 4 x 8/4 x 6 tables (see attached figure). The layout features three lines, an outer double dog, inner double dog and a inner loop.  Using the double dog design so the grand kids can run the layout with two trains on each double dog loop and not have to operate switches.  Placed switches between the double dog loops and the sidings to move additional trains in and out.  Plan to run a legacy freight and older TMCC passenger on the outer double dog loop, legacy freight and legacy passenger on the inner double dog loop, and a MTH passenger on the inner loop.   Have a ZW-L for the two double dog loops and the two sidings.   Have an MTH remote commander/power block for the inner loop.  Each ZW-L channel and the MTH commander power outputs run through an external box with an in series 10 amp fast circuit breaker on the hot output followed by TVS across the ground and hot outputs to the track.  Have planned drops every 3 feet with additional TVS sprinkled around the layout at the drops.   Will place TVS in the engines next time I have to open them.  Surge protector for power inputs to the transformers.

Plan to run four additional power block busses for accessories running through a similar external circuit breaker/TVS box.   Will group them to by table location to optimize bus wiring.  Street lamps, building lighting, illuminated cars/trucks/, MTH and lionel operating accessories etc.    Have a number of options to power accessories.  Have a ZW, two CW-80s, a power master, a TechII solid state transformer and a bunch of 1033s I have accumulated over the years.  Any reason to choose one over the others.  Guess my preference would be to use the 4 ZW channels.

Thanks in advance for you kind consideration of this request.

H

Welcome to the forum! This is a great looking and well thought out plan, IMO.  Your use of electrical protections is to be commended.

A question: when you say you plan to have TVS sprinkled around the layout at the drops, do you mean every drop or only some drops.  The reason I ask is because if TVS are installed on every power drop at 3 foot intervals, you may want to reconsider that part of the plan.  Here's why.

TVS diodes have some capacitance.  Since TVS are connected across the Hot and Common they are connected in parallel.  Parallel capacitance is additive.  Too much capacitance will attenuate the DCS signal to the point where effective two way communication can be poor or non-existent.  @gunrunnerjohn often cautions against this.  Maybe consider limiting the number of TVS connected to the layout to around 10.  As you may have read, placing them in the command control locomotives is really the best place.

Good luck with you plan and build.

thanks for the response.   As you suggested I only plan to add a few TVSs at drops around the busses in hopes for random protection being better than nothing.   Had seen the cautionary responses about too many TVS.   Interesting that there appears to be no response from the manufacturers I could find about placing TVS in the locos despite all the posts on the forum and the influence I would have thought it would have.  

Thanks also for your great reviews of circuit breakers.   I purchased the ones you suggested. 

Is there a particular option you prefer for powering the accessories from my list above.  With 4 districts I thought just using the ZW would be the most efficient.

That's great.  I'm glad you found the Airpax Instant breakers topic helpful.

I use a variety of power sources for accessories.  As long as they are either phased or electrically isolated, it comes down to personal preference. I like to have many different power source controls depending on the type of accessory rather than it's location.  This does mean more wiring, but a smaller gauge (like 18 or less) can typically be used in most applications depending on the current requirements.

I put incandescent lights on their own variable voltage circuit to be able to adjust their brightness depending on the circumstances.  As for other accessories, by experimentation, I determine at what voltage they operate best.  For conveyors or anything moving, I put them on a separate variable supply that can be adjusted depending on the situation/what looks better.  Vibratory motors usually have a sweet spot too.  For accessories that work fine within a certain range, I group those together on the same power source.  Others prefer to keep it simpler, YMMV.

You didn't mention running conventional control locos.  I like running conventional and command.  If you want conventional control, here's something to consider:

For young children running trains using conventional control, I think the CW-80's control handle is a good sturdy and intuitive choice.  I love my ZWs but have concerns about children accidentally breaking the handles, plus it can seem a little intimidating to very small children.  I have switches wired so that the CW-80 can be exclusively connected to selected track blocks.

good advice on grouping the accessories based on type.   will map that out and see what the wiring looks like.   Only running command control trains at this point.   Have my 72 year old conventional lionel steam engine that my father got me (for him I think)  on my first birthday in my office on display!

Welcome to the forum.  Something to consider is the manufacturer of the buildings.

By this I mean if you decide on some Menards buildings (which they have quite a few to offer at competitive price), you will need to create a buss for 4.5VDC to power those. They do sell small wall plugs, but if you have several, you will want to consider something larger.

If you decide to light some buildings yourself, I think LEDs are the way to go. There are many options that can run off 12VDC.

Your old ZW will handle most of your transformer driven accessories, but as mentioned above it is convenient to have different items on an individual adjustable handle.  Adding some complexity, there are different type buck converters (AC/DC, DC/DC) that allow you to set individual items to a specific voltage all driven from a common buss.

Ken

Ken

Thanks for the response.    most of the buildings, tower lights etc.. I have are lionel or lionelville with lighting 12-18V.   Will take the advice to group the accessories by voltage and keep the lighting V to the minimum.   might consider swapping in LED bulbs where I can.   just have a lot of them!!!!  also was given some of the woodland scenics just plug devices so will have to see where they can be used in the layout.   Would you send me a link to the buck converters you mentioned. 

A search on Amazon "dc to dc buck converter" will give you many choices, but most look like this pic.

You can also search ac to dc step down converter and find multiple hits.

I use an old computer power supply that feeds a 5V DC buss and a 12V DC buss. This in conjunction with converters allows me adjust brightness on individual buildings, albeit most of mine are now LEDs.  I believe the process of converting a power supply is somewhere on this forum, but you can search on internet as well.