Blackwater Canyon Line - April 2, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

Dave, Ah ha!  I never thought of that.  I still could check on the calculated grades on each side of the leveled switch, but on the other hand, it will be work out to be what is on the layout. Thank you!!!

Mark, the only thing that is tickling the back of my head is the idea that every track loop is at some sort of grade. No flat loop anywhere. An earlier version had two relatively flat loops with connecting inclines. Hmmm  Jeff

Jeff, I read your message last evening, but am only getting around to answering.  I wanted to find the plan I think you are referring to.  Is this it?

You have a good point about no flat loops in any of my plans; actually from day one!  Flat loops is a good idea, since I have always been working with grades. 

I find it rather interesting that it has been 6 years since Sissy got married and vacated the room, and I am still struggling with  plan.  I think it is because what I wanted to do would never fit in an 11x11 room, and I am exhausted beating my head against the wall.   

Back to the plans.  I have 3 variations that could be accomplished with leaving the engine service area and lift-up bridges intact.  I'm going to go back to the layout and move some things around to try to visualize something like this plan and see where it takes me.

Jeff, your input is much appreciated!

Keep working at it Mark! It will come to you eventually.

I was just out in the train room and realized how much stuff I am going to pack just to change things around. I have to pack everything as I see a lot of demo and rebuilding! LOL

Mark - it looks like it. the file was named  "Mark Back to the Drawingboard jrw5c.scarm" 

I ran/run conventional about half the time. On 3% and less grades, with any load, the train would noticably slow down going up and speed up going down. Of course DCS cures that. In the event of an uncoupling, they will flow downhill. I've noticed my big iron prefers to run level and any turnouts with a touch of "not" will derail from time to time. None of my RailKings would do that, but my GS-4 with the big drivers is really finnicky.

If you were dealing with 1% grades then no big deal, but you are not, which is why my comments and concern.  Having operating problems on a newly completed layout is not fun. Been there, Done that. 

Thank you, Mike, Jeff!  Mike, it is a job storing things when you make big changes on a layout.

Jeff, All I can find is "Mark Back to the Drawingboard jrw5.scarm" and "Mark Back to the Drawingboard jrw5a.scarm"  That's okay.  Yes, I have experienced runaway trains when couplers fail.  "Look out below!!"  I have two MTH PS1 F3 sets (one is Western Maryland, the other is B&O) that are a pain to run on the layout as it is for sure!  So, they set on the shelf most of the time.  Convincing observations, for sure.

On to the layout.  I've been working on a pier for the double track bridge end away from the hinges.  I reused some of the stacked scraps I used before.  It is a work in progress, but this shows the general idea.

Looking good Mark! I like the reuse method; it saves a lot of us money in the long run! LOL

Mark, I made many iterations of my layout before I finally started building. You’ll find the plan that makes you happiest. We all need to compromise for lack of space, use, etc. I agree with Mike, you never know when you can find a use for those scraps you’ve been holding on to for so long. Keep at it, you’ll get there.

Andy

Thank you, Mike, Andy!

Yes, I am the salvage man! 

I'm glad I didn't get to doing scenery before I decided this current layout isn't working for me.  As I've mentioned, the engine service area and lift-up bridges work well, as does the little siding and scene by the door.  However, I greatly appreciate Jeff's persistence in pointing out some glaring problems, that never came to the forefront of my mind.  Back in the summer, he presented the same ideas, and I was reluctant to accept except for the raised town with something underneath.  Yes, modifying the layout to look something like Jeff suggested will take a little more work, but now is the time to take the extra effort in building something that will work well in this small room.  I was actually fiddling around with the layout last night and came up with a couple ideas that allows me to tear out a little less, but fulfill the design.  More on that to come.

Maybe this is becoming my Plan 'E'.     (I'm a hardware guy not a software guy, so I never caught on to their notation such as this becoming ver. 5.0)

Mark,

I haven’t weighed in too much because you’ve been so well advised by others. But if you’ll forgive me, I think there two things to consider in finalizing your design: your back and your knees. As I’m progressing in designing my own layout, I’m finding that my ideas need to be constrained by the need avoid too much time on my knees or crawling under the layout. I hope I’m not out of line, but after two knee replacements …

As to the track plan itself, sometimes simpler is better, especially if you want effective scenery. Anyway, that’s my two cents. Now back to learning RRTrack.
Rubin

Rubin, I appreciate your comments about designing to avoid pain and/or injury to the knees and back.  I have one replaced knee, a lumbar L3-L4-L5 fusion, and the leg with the good knee has permanent sciatic damage.  Hence, the need for the lift-up bridges, and fairly narrow benchwork.  I was just checking arm reach to the backdrop while standing flat footed and not leaning for an idea last evening.  I've been able to do a minimal work under the layout, by dropping long wires for track down through the benchwork then grabbing them with a tool so I can make connections near the front of the layout while seated on the roll around stool.  It's worked out pretty well, but there is always the risk of getting excited about an idea and building myself into a torture trap.  You are not out of line at all!!  I think all of us need a friendly reminder now and then.  We aren't getting younger, and we will be older when we have to find a future short circuit.

Simpler was the motivation behind the arm reach test on one of Jeff's ideas.  Good luck on learning RRTrack.  I have never tried it, but everyone says it is a good program!!

Here's a short video of a modification I made.  I cut out the lower passing siding under the window and curled it around to the long siding.  It makes for a nice temporary loop while I figure everything else out and work on the upper level construction.  I'll answer any questions later since I don't have time to go into detail now.  Thank you for looking!

Looks great Mark, nice to see the train running!

Celebration. Train runs again!

Congratulations . Looks good.

👍👍👍👍😁😁😁

Looks good Mark! nice work on the modification.

Congratulations Mark, that was a lot of planning and execution. That’s has to give you a good sense of accomplishment and the satisfaction of another job well done.

Jay

It is always good to see trains running on a temporary or finalized plan.

Looks great Mark! The ability to run the trains during the build makes it all the more enjoyable! Congrats on the progress!

WM Engineer to his fireman:  "Ya know, Frank?  I can't wait till management gets that new highline finished.  It's a pain having to deal with all these slow orders."

Fireman:  "You betcha, Ted.  Not to mention the sections of track piled higher than our cab.  Why, one of those stacks could lean over and fall on us at any time!"

Engineer:  "*snort*  "Like management cares.  There's a buncha guys on on the lower end of the seniority list.  They'll jump at the chance to be the next victims."

Fireman:  "You got that right!"

Thank you Mike, Bill, Bob, jnadpa, Jay, PRRMP54, Rich, Steve!!

The prospects of having two point-to-point tracks for an extended period of time was discouraging.  I recalled an idea I had this past summer when I first realized I didn't like my layout with the two short passing sidings.  I couldn't keep up with two trains running with the short sidings and short runs between the two even running at 10 SMPH.  This little cutoff really helps me to have fun running a train while planning and reconstruction continue.

Actually this loop is in effect part of one of Jeff's plans.  Here are a couple of screenshots of a Jeff plan that I modified slightly.

First, just the lower level in green and the inclines in purple.  The continuous green loop is roughly what I made and showed it in the video.  If I wanted to follow this plan, I have enough depth to add to the table top along the left side of the operating area for the green sidings.  Right now the table is 30" deep.  I did a reach test, and could make it up to 36" and still reach the track along the backdrop.

This one is the upper level in green and the inclines in purple.  Here is where I modified Jeff's plan.  I forgot to add in the bridges over the walk-in point, but suffice it to say that I had to lengthen the passing siding past the bridges towards the backdrop at the bottom of the drawing.  In doing that, no curved switch would fit and get the curves to not hit the backdrop.  Therefore, I had to extend the passing siding around the bend as can be seen.

I'm still pondering what to do, but in the meantime, it is nice to run a train on my lower loop.  I added the SCARM file here if anyone wants to take a look at it.  Thank you!

@palallin posted:

WM Engineer to his fireman:  "Ya know, Frank?  I can't wait till management gets that new highline finished.  It's a pain having to deal with all these slow orders."

Fireman:  "You betcha, Ted.  Not to mention the sections of track piled higher than our cab.  Why, one of those stacks could lean over and fall on us at any time!"

Engineer:  "*snort*  "Like management cares.  There's a buncha guys on on the lower end of the seniority list.  They'll jump at the chance to be the next victims."

Fireman:  "You got that right!"

Steve, That is an excellent dialog!  I love it!!  two thumbs up for sure!    As an former employee who was deemed expendable, I laughed at the last part!!!

Mark, outstanding! Glad to see you have trains running again. It’s starting to come together!

Andy

Mike,

I'm with Mike, it's great to see  a train running on your layout again. Might I add, it's running very smoothly.  I think the update on trackwork works well.

Dave

Hi Mark,

  It's been a spell.  While playing catch up on your progress I was really impressed that you could work an Atlas double track bridge into the layout.  It's prominent location sure showcases the product.  You may need to ask for royalties.  😁

Keep up the great work.  Truly a testament to how much Ooooo you can get out of a little O.

Bruce

Thank you, Andy, Dave, Bruce!

Dave, I aways wish my track was smoother, but it seems to suffice.  Thank you!

Bruce, I am pleased with the double track bridge.  Now if I can make the rest of the layout look good enough to compliment it well, I will be happy.

I was running a train while I was working on getting the pier the exact right height.  After several passes, there was a slight derailment of the last two cars as they came off the lower bridge.  After getting them back on track, I saw where the lower bridge seats down the track was slightly skewed.  The bridge track was not matching up to the track screwed down to the table.  I discovered I could shift the free end of the bridge back and forth a bit with my hand.  Going back to the hinged side, I saw a support board from the original location was slightly cracked.  I will have to replace it which isn't a big deal, but I'll want to figure out how to do it better so it doesn't happen again.

Sounds like an easy fix, good thing you caught it now then later!

Yes Mike,  It is one of the uprights that the pivot bolt goes through.  I think I put stress on it as I was aligning the holes I drilled in the plexiglass sections you gave me.  Since I’ve had it apart a couple times, it should be an easy fix, since I’ll make sure I shim any misalignment instead of trying to man handle it.  😆

I got my pier 'core' to the right height to add plywood roadbed.  I test fit with this scrap, and need to buy a sheet of plywood before I can continue.  The railhead matches right up to the railhead on the double track bridge.  It just happened that the tallest of the K-Line trestle piers match almost level with the top of the pier, so I put two of them in place temporarily to balance my plywood in the first photograph.

The next two photographs show where I laid out some track where it would go if I followed Jeff's idea for sidings under the removable town.  It is obvious that I would have to determine exact locations for roadbed supports and lift-out town supports if I go that route.

This last photograph shows I would have to extend the table top 4" to support the track coming off the lower loop to feed the storage tracks in Jeff's plan.  It would certainly work.

I neglected to take a video of the RailKing PS3 B&O SD9 that Dave @luvindemtrains asked about.  I recall when I started seeing SD7s and or 9s taking the place of F-units on the B&O near where I grew up.  I bought this engine new from Patrick's Trains in Wheeling this summer.  It is really nice for a RailKing price.

And its running long hood forward 👍👍.

🤣🤣

@RSJB18 posted:

And its running long hood forward 👍👍.

🤣🤣

That's the only way to go! 

Looking good Mark. The mock up helps you see what could be. Nice video. Smooth running.

Andy

Well done!

Peter

Now look, it is unfair for the train to simply disappear. Glad to see things running perfect but where did it go? Tried following on the track plan but I am not very good at that.

You are really making progress!

Oh yeah, their is no way that you are going to pass up the additional storage that Jeff’s plan offers. But that is a 2023 project.

Hey Mark, things are really looking up for you, Trains running nice and smooth, progress on the layout and maybe only a couple of inches of snow!

I really like the look of the Plexi glass I might have to cut some new stuff for my single bridge!

Thank you, Bob, Andy, Peter, Bill, Mike!

Andy, I just have to mock things up, especially because I am trying to find places to fit the existing track (especially the grades) into the new plans.

Peter, I have GarGraves cuts on my fingers like you.  I thought of you right away when I got the biggest gouge. 

Bill, the train disappeared under the wye that leads to the engine house.  Upper right in the drawings.  You are right about the additional storage.  Tracks in Jeff's location would be much longer than the short storage tracks under the enginehouse.  I also would be able to make a lift-off section much easier to lift off since there would be no track over these tracks.  The tracks for the wye and engine house made it difficult to make a cover that can be lifted off easily.  If a car fouls up, I end up reaching in from the front and end up pulling cars out to get them on track.

Mike, yes I didn't even have to shovel any snow.  The shovel and blower are still in the shed.  They got hit a few miles north of us.  I am very pleased with the plexiglass.  It is really solid and since it is transparent/translucent it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb under the bridges.

@Mark Boyce,

I am enjoying your layout build. I just want offer my favorable opinion on out of sight storage. I didn’t put any tracks at the beginning, but was fortunate to be able to just add them as I progressed. The area is on the left hand side of the “U”, under the elevated section. I have 75 cars and a 5 car passenger steam train on 7 switched sidings, along with 2 through tracks. Along with a 5 track yard on the right side, all engines and rolling stock are on rails. I realize you may not have as much space, but you will appreciate not having to offload shelves to make up a different train.

John, your layout looks beautiful but how do you deal with doing work on the middle of each section? As I plan my new layout, I’m trying to eliminate duckunders and any reach longer than 3 feet or so. Perhaps you are just slot more limber than I.
In any event, it looks great.

@RubinG,

Thanks for the very nice complement. The U sections are 7' wide and I can reach the middle standing on the second step of the stool visible in the one Picture. I try to put items in the center that won't need much attention after they are installed. I built the road on my bench and then put it in. Buildings are all finished beforehand with a plug to drop through for lighting. The left side has a lift out by the MTH bridge next to the barn.It is not an easy stretch, but I am 6' with a pretty good reach. The main level is 44", which helps me still work underneath. My grandkids got taller pretty fast, but I still need to get under once in a while. I just had a work platform and a couple of two-steps available for the younger ones.I made it 7' to accommodate  O72 track..

@Mark Boyce,

I changed things many times after getting the first version of track laid, so keep at it until it works for you. The feeling of satisfaction is well worth the effort. I started with the plan pictured. It's  still the same, only different, as my dad used to say.

Thank you, John and Rubin!!

Rubin, I always appreciate a question or comment for someone who replied to my posts.  Sometimes it's a question I want to ask and sometimes it's a question I never thought of, but learned too.

John, I agree with Rubin, your layout looks great!  I don't think I have ever seen an overall view before.  I sure would like to have every car on the rails, but as you observed I don't have the room.  This plan for adding some tracks to my layout will work well I think.  Thank you for the encouragement to make changes to the original plan to see what works best for me.!

@Mark Boyce, Bird's eye view:

Hi All,

As you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to build a new 19x 25 foot train room. I’ve been trying to put together a track plan to build in stages, because I want to get trains running for my grandchildren ASAP(and because so big a layout is very daunting).

Attached is a track plan which is S Gauge and recently appeared in CTT on which I’d like the group’s thoughts and ideas

My current thought is replace the crossing at the top by elevating one part of the main over the other and completely revise the left side of the layout by taking that track and wrapping it around the current main and then extending it to the left into a loop and another yard.
All thoughts are welcome.
Thanks,

Rubin

John, Thank you for the video!  That's a great looking layout and a great looking room for it!!!

Rubin, I think you forgot to attach the track plan!  I would be glad to look at it and consider your thoughts on it for your wonderfully sized room!

Mark, here is the track plan to which I was referring. My thought is to take the outer loop and run it around the the front of the layout section on the right and then have switch form a “Y” off this loop to provide access to a yard and industrial area on the the left side. Since this layout is only 15 feet wide, I would actually have 4 more feet to work with.
All comments welcome.
Thanks,

Rubin

Rubin, I'm sorry to leave you hanging.  Since no one else has taken up your question here, I thought I would reply to you in an email.  I'll try to get that out to you tomorrow.  Thank you for your comments.

@RubinG posted:

Mark, here is the track plan to which I was referring. My thought is to take the outer loop and run it around the the front of the layout section on the right and then have switch form a “Y” off this loop to provide access to a yard and industrial area on the the left side. Since this layout is only 15 feet wide, I would actually have 4 more feet to work with.
All comments welcome.
Thanks,

Rubin

My 2 cents (worth every penny!)...

I saw that plan and like it - looks like a good combination of loop running and opportunity for switching / accessories.  The fact that you have a few extra feet of width should really help.

The biggest downside is the need to build 3 removable bridge sections (or deal with duckunders that seem to get lower each year).  Although we've seen some really great bridges, two of them in the plan are at an angle, making them more challenging to build.

Having trouble conceptualizing your proposed changes - might get more replies if you post a drawing.  Also, more people might see your questions if it's posted in the layout planning section of the forum.

Deciding to see how some of this modification to Jeff's plan would work, I laid out the siding and yard, the yard that would be under the lift off town.  That is the dark green tracks at the bottom of the first drawing.

Lower Level

Upper Level

This photograph shows the siding that comes off the lower loop with track sections fit in with a minimum of screws.  I reused two Ross #4 switches and bought another.  There is no power connected to track or switches.  I just moved cars with the old 0-5-0 switcher (by hand) to see how this works out.

This photograph shows the yard and two holding tracks again held in place with a minimum number of screws to see how it would work out.  The yard tracks hold fifteen 40' and 37' boxcars and reefers.  I can fit 5 more boxcars in front where it would be easy to move them by hand to where I want.  Twenty cars is a vast improvement!  Thank you Jeff for the ideas!!!

This photograph is just a view of the siding and yard area from the entrance to the room.

I think this arrangement will work out fine.  I will leave it sit a while to see how I like it.  Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, nice to see you laying track down for a "look see".  15 cars on a 2 track siding is not too bad in my book. I am spinning with ideas on TPRR2 and antsy to make some progress. Jeff

BTW if you wanted longer sidings you could slide the yard switch up a few sections if you could add a bit to the inside of the table. Of course then you could add a 3rd inner track for a run around for a switcher. 

Looks good Mark. This coming from the guy who pulled 2 027 switches to squeeze 3 031's to add a yard track. 🤣🤣

Bob

Congratulations Mark, you are making it work; and work well.

Jay

Looks Fantastic!!!

Bob

The progress continues. This is quite an improvement!

Looking great Mark. Operations soon enough, eh?

It's tough to find space to fit storage tracks without it looking like the were squeezed into the available space.  You did a good job maintaining track spacing which looks realistic.  While I'm sure you wished the tracks had space for 30 cars, 15 is a real good number for a mid-sized O-scale layout.

-Greg

Great Job Mark!!!!!

Hi Mark, It really gives you a nice place to store cars and be able to move them around as needed!  Looks good, I also like your idea of letting it sit for a while to make sure you like it!

Thank you, Jeff, Bob, Jay, Bob, Bill, Dave, Greg, John, Mike!

Bob, yes I recall your yard expansion project.  It worked out quite well for you.

Dave, since the new tracks aren't powered, I could still back an engine with a few cars in tow up to the yard tracks right now to make a long train to run around the lower loop.

Mike, I think I already like the idea, what matters with it is if I try to change things like Jeff suggested.  I'll go into the practicality of that below.

Jeff, You have a great idea.  Actually, I extended the table out into the aisle by 4" to install the switches and track off the lower loop.  I did it this way to not have to move the grade that goes up from right to left.  It is in a position where it could be used as is for the ramp closest to the aisle.

It would be easy to move the left hand part of the ramp back a few inches, because I built the layout in modules that can be moved by removing a section of track and removing a few screws underneath.  Here is an underneath shot of the ramp in question.  I used part of the old book case for this part.  It goes back only to the white part, which is a base for the Styrofoam I used starting some scenery last winter.  I could move it back 5 inches and fasten it down again.

That part is easy, the curve at the bottom end of the ramp is a little more complicated, but wouldn't be too hard.  Also, on the upper level, I would have to move the switch to the right a few inches, shortening the passing track some.  That won't matter since the passing track will be much longer past the big station and double track bridge.

That leads to the rear ramp that goes down from right to left.  The grade starts about where the Greyhound bus is in the photograph above.  I did the same thing with that ramp as the foreground ramp where I can cut remove a section of track and move that board closer by 5 inches to allow for the upper loop track to have room between the ramp and backdrop.

Here is the bottom of the grade where the curve would need moved forward as well to allow the upper loop to end up between it and the ramp track.

I haven't decided if I am going to do all of that, but at this point I think it would need to be done to make for more pleasing operation for me.

Mike, I didn't respond on the 'What did you do on your layout' thread about all the snow you have since I would be going off topic.  Here, I don't think they care.  You have gotten hammered with snow.  We have lucked out big time, since we only got a little when Erie and Buffalo got so much.  Other times, it has been just warm enough to be icy rain.  We will get ours sooner or later!!  I can stay in the train room, look out, and watch all the snow pile up in January and February!   

Mark, I like the experimentation. The benchwork is flexible to allow for quick changes either way. Your thought process is solid.

Andy

Thank you, Andy!  I did think of flexibility when building the benchwork, but because we plan to move to a different house either after my mother-in-law who lives across the road passes on or has to go to a care facility.  To move a 4-foot section to another house if I choose to do it, I tied together the flexible sections I showed before with perpendicular 2x4s to lift out a whole section, scenery and all.  Note, I didn’t have the right length screws when I did it, explaining the extra long screws.

Mark,

This is probably more fun for us to watch than you to make happen. Most of the battle is coming up with the plan and executing is the fun part IMO. I'm sure you will come up with just the right plan. Keep us posted.

Dave

Mark, I see a theme here. Seems like there is a lot of red rolling stock. Some silver, some green. Is Santa in his way?

Try not to get under the layout in the wrong position, not good if you bump something. Don't you have a device for underneath?

Thank you for your observations, Dave and Dave!

I like boxcar red; as is obvious.  😄  The yellow cars are billboard reefers, and the few other colors are inexpensive Menards cars that are of a few colors I remember.  I am not interested in fantasy cars, except I have 4 or 5 Christmas themed cars which are still packed away since I lost my space for a Christmas layout.  I don’t have any boxcars larger than 40-foot since I don’t like modern cars.  Besides, larger cars means fewer cars on a small layout.  🙁

Here is a photograph of the rolling seat I usually use.

I also have a padded garage creeper that can be adjusted to a seat about 4 inches off the floor with a tilted backrest.  I left it in the attic after getting out Christmas decorations.  Sitting on it, I still have to duck under the peak of the roof.  I hate that attic. 🤕 😄

Good deal Mark. I'm increasing my Atlas fleet of cars which I have only done recently. I think going forward that is probably what I'm going to do.

I still have not gotten to measuring out for lumber yet, which I know I wanted to at least have purchased some in November. I hadn't thought of a small padded chair for going under layouts, given how tall I am, don't know how that would work for me since I hate squatting. Must come from being the catcher when we'd have our relatives over and play baseball, lol.

Dave, Yes, you are taller than me.  I always wondered how catchers do it.  I remember Manny Sanguillen had not just a squatting position, but when men were on base he extended one leg out to take the pitch which he said helped him getting up to throw out a base stealer.  It always looked counter intuitive to me, but worked for him.  Manny is a great guy!  He has a sandwich shop at PNC Park and is often at the games, even though he uses a walker a lot now.  Maybe he was a catcher too long!!

For you, maybe a creeper that adjusts into a seat would work.  Here is the one that I mentioned yesterday.

Here is the end section of the creeper that can be removed or used as an upper back rest.

It hasn't worked as well in the attic as I hoped because the bottom of the ridge beam is only 31 inches from the floor.  I had to take off the top section of the creeper and have to duck under each rafter.  However, it gives you an idea of how it would work under a layout.  I'm 5' 11" tall.

I love Atlas cars.  My best boxcar red boxcars and billboard reefers are Atlas.  They are high dollar, but I think have more details than the best MTH and Lionel offer.  That isn't to slam MTH and Lionel.  They put out great detail on high end cars also.  Later K-Line cars have great detail as well.  All of these manufacturers produce some tremendous cars compared to what they did a few decades ago.

Lumber costs?  Yikes!!  I'm glad I was able to salvage some old wood from bookshelves, an old homebuilt work bench, and my dad's stash before we sold the house 3 years ago.

Thank you for commenting!!!!

I'm making some progress on adapting the existing layout to  Jeff's new plan.  I removed two of the three sections of the ramp that is closest to the backdrop to allow for the new upper level to have room in between.  The ramp is just setting on the joists between 9 and 10 inches from the backdrop.  I moved it 5 inches forward.  That would allow for the upper level track behind it with steep rock walls and some retaining balls in between.  This is the two tracks on the left side of the upper level drawing.

I should have removed the curved track I just set there to have a place to put it.  I am really cramped for space doing construction in the 11x11 room, but it is better than what I had for so many years; no room at all.

I've had a chance to think about the yard tracks and I like them enough to start building the upper level over them from the double track lift-up bridge over them.  I probably won't get to do much on that until January.  I still have to secure the yard tracks since I only put a screw into the track here or there so things don't shift with my clumsiness.

Mark you have had an impressive and productive pre-Christmas season.

Jay

Mark, your doing an Outstand job! I know all about lack of space during construction! LOL I will be keeping an eye out for your next update!

Thank you Jay and Mike!

I have been pleased with the time I have had with the layout the last few weeks.  Also, what I have worked on has come together well, thanks to some preplanning and having done the same thing before.  

These somewhat overhead views show I attached the roadbed that I moved back to the joists.  Yes, the edge of the ties are from 9 to 10 inches from the backdrop, though it doesn't look like it.  There will be room for the upper level to go between the track and backdrop.

This shows the moved track on the left in comparison to the original track on the right.  They are 5-1/2 inches apart.

I am going to work on the upper level from the double track bridge pier towards the locations in the above photographs.  The two "dowels" cut from a rake handle show an approximate position of the first two supports.  I think I will have to mark the locations on the table top, then drill holes through and attach them with screws from the underneath.  As I go, I don't think I will want to attach the upper roadbed to the supports at first so I can see how it works out and make adjustments.

Here is an overview from the room entrance.  I have since moved the cars out of the way so I don't break any.

Thank you for taking a look.

Looking good Mark.  The upper level should not need much more than 4 screws to "set" the corners. Makes far more sense to drill a hole from the top so you can find the column from below.  I had a real challenge drilling up from below finding the 2x4s I used and then getting them to stay put while I tried to drive screws up into them.  I ended up drilling them from top at a diagonal. This made removal and adjustments difficult. The things one learns by making mistakes and trying to fix them later!!!  Good thoughts on moving the cars. I hope you are happy with the way the new layout will operate.  Jeff

BTW - It looks like your plans are 180 degrees off from the track position.  At least in the 3rd photo.  Then again maybe not looking at the 4th photo.

Thank you Jeff, I actually moved the drawings away then back without looking at the positioning.  Good eye!

I am going to try it out and uses as few supports as possible so they don’t get in the way.

@Mark Boyce

Looks like you are going to have a bit of work!

Mark this is going to be spectacular.

Merry Christmas.

Starting to come back together Mark. I agree on drilling the holes from above for the dowels. I did most of mine like that but the few I did from underneath were a challenge.

Bob

Thank you, Leandro, Bill, Bob!

Yes it is a lot to do.  I’ve had this thread going 6 years now.  I thought I would be building scenery, but I needed time to try out scenarios.  I never built a layout in O Gauge and needed to see how big it is in real life.  My most complete layout was in a room smaller than this, but it was N scale.  I need to scan my photographs of that layout and post them.  (Western Maryland and Baltimore & Ohio)

Bob, I can measure top and bottom 5 times and still have to drill 3 times to get it right drilling from underneath.  I will have to move empty boxes from underneath and then I can get in there with the screwdriver.  Not a big deal. 👍🏻

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Leandro, Bill, Bob!

Bob, I can measure top and bottom 5 times and still have to drill 3 times to get it right drilling from underneath.  I will have to move empty boxes from underneath and then I can get in there with the screwdriver.  Not a big deal. 👍🏻

Pre- drill the dowel too......it helps get the screw centered and makes it easier to install.

I'm lovin' following along with you here Mark.

More, please, Sir!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Leandro, Bill, Bob!

Yes it is a lot to do.  I’ve had this thread going 6 years now.  I thought I would be building scenery, but I needed time to try out scenarios.  I never built a layout in O Gauge and needed to see how big it is in real life.  My most complete layout was in a room smaller than this, but it was N scale.  I need to scan my photographs of that layout and post them.  (Western Maryland and Baltimore & Ohio)

Bob, I can measure top and bottom 5 times and still have to drill 3 times to get it right drilling from underneath.  I will have to move empty boxes from underneath and then I can get in there with the screwdriver.  Not a big deal. 👍🏻

Mark, you are another person who is inspiring……you tore down what you built and have redesigned and built it back better! Keep up the great work and Merry Christmas!

Peter

Thank you, Bob, John, Peter!

Bob, Oh, absolutely predrill the dowel.  I cut a bunch of them to length last evening, and that's as far as I got.    Not worth a photograph. 

John, Thank you so very much!!  I'm glad you like following along.  I certainly hope to have much more to report as the winter progresses.  I want to get to building scenery and not just buildings sitting on Homasote and plywood!! 

Peter, As I think back on the past 6 years, this has been a venture into what I want versus what I can fit in this small room in O gauge.  There has been some misdirection on my part, there has been disappointment at times.  However, I think this 'Plan E' will be something that I will stick with, at least until/if we move to another house.

It’s really been interesting to watch how this layout has changed from the initial drawing on paper to the “final” version in SCARM to the “new” final version. Of course, in model railroading the word “final” has absolutely no meaning. 🤣

MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR. 🎄🎅🏻🥂🍾

Dave, if anyone else but me knows how much this layout has changed, it is you! 😄. Thank you so much for your valuable input!

Merry Christmas to you and everyone!!! 🙏 🎄

Mark first  A Very Merry Christmas and A Safe, Healthy, Happy New Year to you and your family. Now you are as bad as me keep changing the layout and it will never be finished but do like what you are doing keep up the great work.

Mark, I have to say you are moving right along! Things are looking great, and it looks like it will be a fun layout to run! I am in the same boat as you, but then again that is some of the fun of building a layout! LOL

Keep up the good work and I will keep watching!

Mark, the updates are looking great, keep it up. As far as positioning the top decking on the dowels, I may have a trick for that. In woodworking when you need to position something that’s not easy to measure or see, you can put some lipstick or other substance on the top of the dowel. Then carefully position the top decking and press down lightly. That will give you the exact position of the dowels on the underside of your decking. There is another method but it requires special metal pieces that create an indent in the decking. The lipstick trick (or other handy substance) has served me well over the years, and it’s very accurate.

Andy

Looking forward to the next set of pics!

Peter

I really like the improvements in the new plan.  Sure, it's a pain to build it but you'll reap the benefits for years to come!

-Greg

Thank you, Rick, Mike, Andy, Peter, and Greg!

Andy, coating the tops of the dowels and placing the plywood on to transfer the color is a good idea to know where to drill!!  

Yes it will be worth it once I get the supports, track, and wiring all in.  I’m hoping recent experience helps cut down the time until trains are running again.

I haven’t had a chance to do anything since I cut the dowels a week ago.  Two days and nights of 20 mph and more wind really drifted the snow in front of the garage door and my car sitting outside.  Besides digging out and Christmas gatherings, I am finally replying.  ☃️

@Mark Boyce Looking good on all the progress. Still need to read back through a few pages. lol

I've been MIA with all the buying/selling house dealings. Not to mention trying to line up a moving company. The good news - we close both house's on the 6th. We should be in the new place a couple of weeks after that. I'll try to get a couple pics of layout location options. It will be a while before a new layout is started.

So hopefully by the end of January I'll be back to checking and posting on a more regular timeframe.

Hope your doing well Mark and that the snow and rain are not causing to much of a problem. Here is another tip if you haven't already heard of it. For drilling the upper level holes for power drops I wait till have the track down and use a 1' long welding rod that I flattened tone end and then sharpened the sides to be like a small paddle bit.

I hope it helps you or someone else!

Thank you, RJ and Mike.

RJ, Congratulations on the house buying and selling.  I hope all goes through smoothly!  I'll look forward to seeing what space you have for a new layout!

Mike, After the cold blast over Christmas, we got warmer weather and rain, so the snow melted fairly quickly.  No flooding here up on the ridge.  Your paddle bit idea is great!

I got the first 4 supports in and a section of roadbed on top of them.  I had some 1/2" shelves from the old kitchen cabinets my in-laws replaced 15 years ago.  That wood is nice and solid for a roadbed, but leaves a lot of room underneath.  Here are some views from the first section.

Looks great Mark. Old solid hardwood never goes out of style.

I built my shop bench from some maple case work we removed from a lab in our Science Bldg years ago. They are going on 60 years old and are still solid as a rock. I have another set in my garage. 👍👍

Bob

Thank you, Bob!  Yes, the house was built in ‘68.  My father-in-law hung some of the old cabinets on the garage walls.  He had the refinishers move a floor unit similar to yours to a nook in the garage.  We have been in this house for going on 12 years, and I had forgotten there were some leftover shelves leaning against the wall.  I started moving things out of the way to see if I had anything left before I went out to buy.  Bingo!!

@Mark Boyce  Mark, I keep seeing the photos and try to imagine the perspective and what this will look like when all the track is assembled. Nice progress, keep up the good work.  As it turns out TPRR2 will be about 12x12,  about the size of Blackwater Canyon. 

@RSJB18  Looking at your work bench - my new work area is literally a narrow space under the stairs. I've added shelving under the stairs and put shelves in between the wall studs to gain storage space.  I have just enough space to work unless my belly continues its expansion.  Slowly turning that around and going in the proper direction. Photo later of the space not my belly.

@RSJB18 posted:

Looks great Mark. Old solid hardwood never goes out of style.

I built my shop bench from some maple case work we removed from a lab in our Science Bldg years ago. They are going on 60 years old and are still solid as a rock. I have another set in my garage. 👍👍

Bob

Great work bench! Yes the old cabinets are priceless...

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, RJ and Mike.

RJ, Congratulations on the house buying and selling.  I hope all goes through smoothly!  I'll look forward to seeing what space you have for a new layout!

Mike, After the cold blast over Christmas, we got warmer weather and rain, so the snow melted fairly quickly.  No flooding here up on the ridge.  Your paddle bit idea is great!

I got the first 4 supports in and a section of roadbed on top of them.  I had some 1/2" shelves from the old kitchen cabinets my in-laws replaced 15 years ago.  That wood is nice and solid for a roadbed, but leaves a lot of room underneath.  Here are some views from the first section.

Fantastic progress Mark,  great eye for detail and working in the z-axis. Gives you a lot of options which you have used to maximize your layout. Beautiful work for sure!

Morning Mark, it took me a couple times looking at your plan and photos of the room before I was able to grasp where you were standing and what section you were working on. But not wanting to give up I got it all figured out. Looks great and I look forward to seeing more!

Thank you, Jeff, John, Mike!

Jeff and Mike, I wish I could make a drawing or series of drawings to show what is in my mind.  I tried that a few years ago, and quite frankly failed.  I do not have the talent to do so.  John is exactly right about working in the z-axis.  I used to be able to draw items back in the pencil and T-square days, but those were relatively rectangular, not curved like this.  I think I can build it faster than draw it.  I hope to have something completed enough to be easier to see where I am going.

Thank you so much for hanging in there with me! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jeff, John, Mike!

Jeff and Mike, I wish I could make a drawing or series of drawings to show what is in my mind.  I tried that a few years ago, and quite frankly failed.  I do not have the talent to do so.  John is exactly right about working in the z-axis.  I used to be able to draw items back in the pencil and T-square days, but those were relatively rectangular, not curved like this.  I think I can build it faster than draw it.  I hope to have something completed enough to be easier to see where I am going.

Thank you so much for hanging in there with me! 

Hey Mark, don't rush it, we all know where you're going! It just takes a little to match up the layout drawings with the photos, maybe is you state where you are taking the photo from in relation to your plan drawing.

Either way I in for the long term!

Mark, the spare pieces of scrap you have can come in very handy when you need them most. That looks solid and will serve its purpose.
Bob, the maple casework is solid like you said. It will outlive us.

Andy

Thank you, Andy!  Yes, and another thing about using this old wood is that I don’t feel so bad when I realize I cut something wrong.  It isn’t like I just spent $50 for a sheet of plywood and now have to go buy another one because my wrong-cut pieces can’t be used for what I am doing!  😄

I was able to get some work done on the high line this week.  All of the dowels are in and the roadbed is in place.  This takes me to the corner that is in the lower left of the drawings.  The track is just fitted together but not fastened down in any way.

This photograph shows the track in the foreground will start the ramp down.  The rear track will be the level high route along the lefthand wall to the next corner.

Overall view of the bottom of the drawing.

On to the high line along the long wall.

Today I removed the next corner section of ramp.  Only a handful of screws needed loosened.  I only had to hunt for 2 screws that were hidden to get the corner section out.  This section will be reworked and moved forward about 5 inches once the high line behind it is completed.

This photograph shows the space behind this curve that will be where the high line goes.  I will be going with simple risers on each joist with cleats to attach to the roadbed and keep the roadbed level.  Go back to the tried and true method.  It will be easier.

I thought I would include a photograph of the 4' x 6' space I am working in.  The blue rolling cart is butted up into a corner of the layout.  Above it in the photograph is one leg of the layout marking a corner of my work space.  I need the shop vac and most defiantly the rolling stool.  The edge of the benchwork at the double track bridge is in the lower right.  I have to keep things organized and sweep up debris often so I am not tracking through it. 

Thank you for taking a look!!

That’s a very impressive endeavor Mark. After seeing the plans it’s nice viewing the implementation of the reality. Your narrative is very interesting and insightful. Thanks for taking the additional time to post the information. You have given me things to consider.

Jay

Keep up the great work Mark. I got both my bridges install over the weekend so I am even starting to make some progress.

Thank you, Jay and Rick!

Jay, I am trying to be better documenting what I’m doing, after seeing how well some forum members do it.  Your comment makes me feel like I am getting better at it!  😊

Rick, Congratulations on getting your two bridges installed!  I still have to dress up the piers on mine after I get trains running on the high route and ramps.

You sure have packed some operating action into a small footprint Mark! Good stuff!!

It's coming along nicely!  It's neat how you're able to pack so much action in a limited space without it looking like a "spaghetti" layout.

-Greg

Mark,

You have really been doing some serious work lately. I am very impressed on what you are doing in your space. It's turning out to look organized and well thought through. Always enjoy seeing your progress.

Dave

Mark, the changes look great! I can start to see what the finished product will look like. The layout feels bigger to me. What do you think?

Andy

You are making great progress Mark. Keeping the worksite neat gets you brownie points from the safety manager too!

Hopefully trains are running soon.

Bob

Mark, Anytime you are adding grades to your layout, you have a lot of work to do. There is so much more to getting that stuff correct with the placement of risers and sub road bed. The reward will be seeing an engine run up or down is a smooth operation. Good looking job. Bill

Thank you, Bill, Greg, Dave, Andy, Bob, Bill!

Yes, it does seem like I am getting a lot packed in, and I am glad it doesn't look like the proverbial 'bowl of spaghetti'!  I can't take all credit for packing so much in.  I have had so many great suggestions I wouldn't have thought of from forum members!  Thank you everyone who has contributed!!

I do dislike a messy workspace, though it is a bit of challenge in this small space.  I think it is looking bigger as I add more features.

I do agree grades make for mare interesting train watching.  I would rather my grades weren't 4%, but they really aren't as bad looking or running than I thought they could be.

Mark, sorry I haven't commented sooner, the last couple of days I haven't been up to doing much. You sure are making great progress! I like how everything is coming together nicely! I too like a clean work area and planned on vacuuming yesterday, but it stopped working! LOL

Mike, Thank you!  I know how it goes after surgery, you don’t feel like doing much, even to the point I didn’t even feel like reading.  If I had planned this high line from the beginning, I would have done it first.  It is a bit awkward reaching over what is already done.

Here are some photographs I took yesterday of what I expressed in response to Mike’s comment.  Yes, I have had to sit on the layout to get positioned to drill holes and put in screws to hold things together.  That includes keeping things level.

Looks good Mark! Just a heads up I did get sometime in the train room! LOL

Mark good progress. Keep on taking precautions to do this with minimal physical stress. It is going to be extremely satisfying and exciting to watch the progress; just don’t overdo it.

Mike glad to see that you found the train room. Hope that the progress on the knee continues.

Mark, reaching over what is already complete can be a challenge especially with a bad back and any instability. I’m with Bill, take your time it will be worth it.

Andy

Thank you, Mike, Bill, and Andy!

Mike, I’m glad you got to the train room.  👍🏻  Do you need physical therapy for your knee?

Yes, I have had to condition myself to be careful about movements that could aggravate my knee replacement or damaged sciatic nerve, not to mention my back.

I always appreciate someone reminding me, because you never know when I will forget.  Truth be told, it may be that walking the 30-pound dog could be when I have to be most careful.  I must seem like a ball and chain to him!  😄 I shave to watch I don’t trip with my drop foot!  😱

Mark……it looks great……I’m looking forward to seeing more progress. I especially enjoy your detailed comments because my mind does not work in 3  dimensions.

Peter

Thank you, Peter!  I certainly don't visualize things in three dimensions either.  I recall an old Kalmbach Publishing book on Scenery from the '60s that I still have but is well worn.  The author, Bill McClanahan, wrote about 'imagineering'.  He was a good artist and showed drawings of how he envisioned scenes, then photographs of the completed scene.  I proved to myself that I could not do that! 

On to the latest.  Last evening, I finished putting in all the risers and cleats for the roadbed.  I did notice after taking photographs that one cleat slopes, so I will have to correct that.  How it happened, I don't know.    Here are some photographs.

It's funny the things you find when you take things apart.  I have been looking for a red and black clamp for a couple years.  Guess where I finally found it.  Whoops!!  I guess I will have to finish securing the last brace for the backdrop while I am here. 

Mark, I like the look that this is starting to create. The fix for the cleat should be simple enough. That’s very funny about the clamp, you rediscovered it! I’m with you and Peter, I don’t necessarily think in 3d. I research first, then I come up with what I want the scene to be (at least in my mind), then work from there. Some scenes come out better than others.

Andy

Funny about what we think we can and can not do.  Mark your ongoing work on Blackwater shows you have some 3D thinking skills. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but they are there. Nice progress

I am working out the transition from computer to physical model. In my case due to my insistence on a long passenger yard, necessarily on a lower level and with a 3/4 way around the layout downslope to get there, the rest of the layout is turning out central Illinois flat. Right now the dimensions are essentially 12x12. I wish one of those were over 18 feet. 

Looking good Mark! As for the one cleat leaning it could be just a super elevation for that section of track! LOL

I wish I could think in terms of 3D then I wouldn't so much time and end up with so many little scrap pieces I might have to glue back together to use! LOL

As for the knee the doc didn't say anything about PT, just said take it easy and stay off of it for 3 days then do as I please and what my body will let me do. It is feeling better, but I think I stopped the pain pills a little soon as I don't want to get addicted! LOL

Great progress Mark! This is going to be a fun layout to operate.

Did you recently buy a new clamp? I find buying new tools is the best way to find the old tools you lost

@Mark Boyce posted:

It's funny the things you find when you take things apart.  I have been looking for a red and black clamp for a couple years.  Guess where I finally found it.  Whoops!!  I guess I will have to finish securing the last brace for the backdrop while I am here. 

I've replaced tools that I thought I lost only to find them later. Most recent example....I did a small plumbing repair in our bathroom. For weeks after I could not find my channel lock pliers and I had no idea where they went. So I bought a new set. A few weeks later my wife is folding towels to put away and hands the missing pliers to me. She said "why did you leave these under the sink....." 🤪🤪🤪

Bob

Thank you, Andy, Jeff, Mike, Bill, Bob!

I guess I am doing 3D, it just doesn’t come out the way I imagined!  I have lots of those scrap pieces, Mike!  😄

Jeff, don’t all of us with spaces the size of ours wish we had 18 feet!  What a nice passenger yard you could build with that!

Bill, I did but 3 clamps a few weeks ago!  😆  I like this one better.  It and it’s pair hold tighter.

Speaking of plumbing, I have purchased about 3 extra rolls of Teflon tape over the years.  Small purchase in comparison to channel locks!  

I cut roadbed today, and now only have to do the curve in the corner.  More scrap on the way, Mike!  🤦‍♂️  I also liberated the clamp and trimmed the 1x2 to length.  I really don’t know how that all happened a couple years ago, but it is the way it should be, and the backdrop didn’t fall down in the process!  👍🏻👍🏻

Mark you’re making great progress on the layout!  I always enjoy reading this thread and seeing everyone’s supportive comments.

My philosophy about clamps is that I never seem to have enough.  Kinda like trains 😜

Mark,

I hate to sound like "Chicken Little," but have you tried running your longest engine around those dowels supporting your upper level?  I see that 40' cars seem to work well, but I'm a little concerned about engines working as well.

Chuck

This is a bit long winded but on the subject of mid build track plan changes.  As usual, lots of well thought out progress with detailed documentation, Mark.  I do wish I had documented my build, especially in regards to all the design changes needed to finally get up and running.

Grades present a great number of design mental blocks that impede the actual constuction in flex track, but I eventually realized the brain power involved in solving design changes just another learned skill of the hobby.  Yah, the ideas never seem to come fast enough, or on time, but given enough unrushed thought, even a compromise in design can produce the most satisfying results.  Think of it this way....we're experiencing much of what it took for real railroad builders to survey and grade a new line.

I consider my drawing skills up to the task of putting onto paper what comes to mind.  Still, where multi-level construction is involved, I am never fully confident in my 3 dimensional ideas on paper until I have at least roughed in the roadbed.  Rather than uss cookie cutter roadbed design from big sheets of plywood, curved Roadbed for flexs are comprised of numerous flat lumber sections.  The ability to change mid build without plywood waste ( at roughly $80 per) saves in so many ways.

The attic issue was another addition to my design problems...imagining and fitting a multi level layout into a triangular attic, rather than cubic room.  Again,  roughing it in before even considering the viability was an absolute.  It was way beyond my ability to think 3 dimensionally well enough to imagine the pitfalls of the restricted space then draw an accurate track plan of it in flex track.

These days are filled with sketching scenes as the landscaping process begins.  I wish I could say with confidence that the track planning stage is fully behind me, but a small engine facility remains.  The fight against analysis paralysis continues.

Best of luck on continuing layout progress, Mark.  It looks like you have the process down pat.

Bruce

Thank you, Steve, Chuck, Bruce!

Steve, I think it is everyone’s comments that makes threads like this one.  I have learned a lot from comments and side tracks here and on similar threads I follow.  It must be winter, since I have a backlog of threads I am following!

Chuck, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!  😄 You called it correctly.  I had one column that was in the way.  Now I wonder why?  Right at the end of a straightaway.  I have already removed it in this photograph.  

I had intended to position it where the mark is to the left of the screw I didn’t pull, but there was a joist in the way.  I should have moved to the left instead of right.  Even if I had been able to use the original mark, it probably would have been too close.  Here may be a better position.

Thank you for mentioning it.

Bruce, I recall your attic layout.  You have a lot more to work around than any of us with a rectangular room!

Speaking of straight cuts for roadbed, I made straight cuts on the last curve instead of using the keyhole saw as I did on the other curves.  Only one more section to go! 👍🏻

I can’t control the saber saw anymore even on low speed, so did them by hand.  I’ve been using the hand saw since my circular saw is over at our younger daughter and son-in-law’s.  At least I could sit and saw in the warm train room instead of going in and out in the weather to use the circular saw. 👍🏻

I can’t tell you how much I learn from all of you. Thank you for your insights.

@RubinG posted:

I can’t tell you how much I learn from all of you. Thank you for your insights.

Great job as always Mark.

I share these same sentiments, your work, documentation and overall transparency has taught myself so much it is incredible. Your layout is coming out fantastic and your help is immeasurable.

Thank you, Rubin, John!

Yes the friendly help everyone gives here on this forum is amazing!  None of our layouts, engines, cars, electronics would be what they are without this collaboration!  I think the best help is when we share what didn’t work; either to get the right answers from someone or to show others how to get out of a jam!

Steve, I forgot to mention I purchased two more clamps when we braved the crowd at Walmart yesterday!  As an aside, our crowds here in Butler are nothing like what folks face in the cities and suburbs.  😎

Since so many of us seem to be trying hard to avoid stress on our knees, backs, etc. and I am certainly in that class (two knee replacements, arthritic hips ) I was wondering what you do to compensate while installing bus wiring, turnout wiring, DCS, TMCC, etc to maximize access and minimize joint stress?

@RubinG posted:

Since so many of us seem to be trying hard to avoid stress on our knees, backs, etc. and I am certainly in that class (two knee replacements, arthritic hips ) I was wondering what you do to compensate while installing bus wiring, turnout wiring, DCS, TMCC, etc to maximize access and minimize joint stress?

Do as much wiring as possible from above before things start to close up. I am also using wireless controllers for activating switches and powering blocks. With another set sending back block occupancy information. Not sure if this helped with not going under layout too much, as these items still need to be connected to track, switches etc. My purpose was to have fun playing with the electronics and designing a new way of accomplishing these tasks. So it may or may not be helpful for knees, hips, back etc. But at least I had some fun doing it.

Now using the quick connector clips on to bus wiring does save time under the layout which is definitely beneficial.  I think Mark posted the connectors.  Hope this helps.

It does help. But what do you mean by “ wireless controllers for the switches?” Would please provide an example? Thanks.

Thank you John, Rubin.

Rubin, I can appreciate your dilemma.  I have one replaced knee, a double lumbar fusion, and a damaged sciatic nerve that acts up if I sit on a hard surface.

I did wiring from the top of the layout as much as possible.  Here is one example.  I drilled holes to drop wires through that were already connected to the track and switches.  Where I could reach, I made connections to the wires that would go back to the controls which were still on the spools.  I liked using these WAGO connectors that you just lift the little orange tab, poke the wire in, then snap the tab shut for a good connection.  They are stiff on the initial opening, so I opened them when me finger nails needed trimmed.  I then finished pulling the wire to the control panel before cutting to length.

Here it was easier to drop the wires through the gap between the wall and layout.  Otherwise I did everything else as above.  I don't recall why I used butt splices on the upper connection.  That is trickier than the WAGO connectors.

I ran all of my wires along the front of the layout so I could sit on the rolling padded stool.  Thus, there are no other connections under the layout.

To make it easier than in the first photograph, my new high line in the rear is completely open awaiting wiring.  I will make the connections from the drops to the main wire using the WAGO connectors and run the wires right out to the front of the layout to take to the control panel.

John will have to explain his wireless controllers.

@RubinG posted:

It does help. But what do you mean by “ wireless controllers for the switches?” Would please provide an example? Thanks.

I will describe them as best that I can.  Using MTH AIU's to control a switch or a power block, I have the out put of the AIU feed an input to a ESP32 micro-controller. The Micro controller takes that input and sends it wireless to its receive unit under the layout. The receive unit activates a relay which either powers a block or switches a turnout. That eliminates wires going from AIU to blocks and switches on layout. If there is interest for more info I could start another thread just for that project and supply schematics, pcb drawings etc. It probably is not cost effective, however it was fun to do!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you John, Rubin.

Rubin, I can appreciate your dilemma.  I have one replaced knee, a double lumbar fusion, and a damaged sciatic nerve that acts up if I sit on a hard surface.

Here it was easier to drop the wires through the gap between the wall and layout.  Otherwise I did everything else as above.  I don't recall why I used butt splices on the upper connection.  That is trickier than the WAGO connectors.

I ran all of my wires along the front of the layout so I could sit on the rolling padded stool.  Thus, there are no other connections under the layout.

To make it easier than in the first photograph, my new high line in the rear is completely open awaiting wiring.  I will make the connections from the drops to the main wire using the WAGO connectors and run the wires right out to the front of the layout to take to the control panel.

John will have to explain his wireless controllers.

Mark, Great job wiring and even better explanation. I could not remember the name of the connectors you used, they look really simple and solid.

Mark your wiring looks great! If it wasn't for you and others on this forum, I would have never known about WAGO Connectors! As I am redoing my layout, I am changing everything over to them!

Ditto on using  WAGO Lever Nut connectors.  I went with the compact 221-41x series, purchased at Menard's.  They're actually  thin enough to fit inside/underneath FasTrack O with a little room to spare.  They also work with short fingernails.

Through experimentation, I've found that even though they are rated to work on wire as small as 24 gauge they actually will hold this 29 gauge stranded wire securely.

Thank you, John, Mike, Steve!

John, I think it would be a great idea to start a thread on using your ESP32 micro-controllers.  You could start by giving a brief overview and see if you get any traction on getting interest.  I think there are a lot of folks on the Forum who have the background to take your idea and run with it.  The ESP32 was new to me, but I follow the concept.

Mike, I didn't know about the WAGO connectors until someone presented them here on this Forum.

Steve, I will have to be buying more WAGO connectors for wiring my additions and I will buy the 221-41x series you used.  I read about them (here on the Forum of course), but was already finishing up the initial wiring.  They really look nice, and I will be glad to find them easier to open and close.  I am glad you shared the series number here, because I was going to have to look them up.  I need to make a trip to Lowes soon, so I will look for them there.  The closest Menards is in Warren, Ohio, about an hour and a quarter away from us.

I have an update from yesterday.  The roadbed is all installed for the high line.  It isn't pretty, but it is level and that's what counts.  Here is the last section.

I didn't have trouble installing the roadbed, but I think I would have trouble installing cork roadbed reaching in that far.  Here are the toughest spots.

I could mark exactly where I want the cork to go, then remove each section and glue down the cork, and reinstall before laying track.  I also could just lay track on the bare wood and ballast later.  However, I don't know how much noise will be eliminated by the cork.

To be honest, to get my roadbed smooth and get overhead clearances right, there are small sections of track on just Homasote with no cork, and there are small sections where the track is on bare wood.  With the DSC and TMCC sound running, and my slow speed running, I can't tell the difference.  I think I will lay the track on the high line, then run a train across it and compare the sound with a train running on the rest of the layout with Homasote and cork.  I am almost out of Homasote and don't want to hunt around to buy more of that.  I could buy a little more cork or try out some of the rubber roadbed if I think it is too noisy.

One more photograph.  Here is the end of the last section of roadbed.  Since I wasn't planning to use Homasote on this new addition, I was pleased with how the height matched up after installing this new roadbed halfway around the layout.  Not just pleased, I was astonished something came out right the first try for once!! 

Mark, unfortunately  I've been unable to find them at my local Lowe's store or on the Lowes.com website.  Some Home Depot stores do carry these.

Online may be a good option (Amazon, Digi-Key, Grainger, Home Depot, Menards, etc.):

https://www.google.com/search?...go+221-41+lever+nuts

Thank you, Steve!  I can try Home Depot or order them online.  I need to order wire also.

Mark, the layout looks great! Things are coming together nicely. I have heard of Wago connectors from you and other folks on the forum. They seem to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t need them for my current layout, but will keep them in mind for the next one.

As far as sound issues, the track for my entire layout is directly on Homasote. The engines are very quiet when running, but I do have carpet on the floor (not sure how much difference that makes). The track is not screwed or nailed down. It’s held in place by the ballast. The layout is Atlas track. I think you’ll be ok with the track right on Homasote.

Glad you were able to fine tune the placement of that support without too much trouble.

Andy

@Mark Boyce

Mark:

Lever wire nuts are GREAT! I get mine from Amazon.

Mark and all,

Thank you so much for sharing. It will help me move forward.. I’ll try to post some pictures on my new thread when I get it going, as requested.

Thank you, Andy, Randy, Rubin!

Andy, I was taking inventory of my remaining Homasote, and I think if I am careful cutting I should have enough; I hope.  😄

Randy, as I recall, I think I got my current Wagos on Amazon too.

Rubin, I will really look forward to seeing what you post when you start your layout topic!

I think I was able to scrounge up enough Homasote for the rest of my roadbed.  Some of the sections are only 12 to 15 inches long, but they are working out.  I have installed some roadbed and track as well.  The first three photographs are of the progress looking at the long wall from left to right.

Some of the shorter sections of Homasote are piled up between tracks here.

I have also put in a set of power drops but haven't pulled in the wire to the drops.

Here is an overall view of the progress this week.

Thank you for taking a look!!

It’s coming along great Mark! I’m really liking your painted background too. Keep up the great progress!

Rolling right along Mark! Looks great!

As usual Mark, your work is very impressive. Your posts, like so many others on the forum, are teaching moments. Do you have in mind a “pretty much” finished date?

Jay

Mark, you’ve really made a lot of progress; I’m jealous!

I just found an unopened box of homasote roadbed in my garage. I remember discussions from back in the day discussing the for sealing homasote. Did you seal it in any way? I guess I will mix it with my cork. Have you done so?

I was also intrigued about how you created and mounted your backdrop. If you addressed this earlier, I apologize.

Wow Mark! It’s really impressive to see the progress in that perspective. Glad everything is working out material wise. That shows how carefully you’ve planned everything. Well done.

Andy

Morning Mark, things are looking Outstanding! It sure is nice when things come together. It is also nice to see that we seem to be in the same boat. Here is a shot of my latest progress! LOL