I'll add a vote for wiring the buttons close to switch locations and also wiring the switches to the AIU. It is easy to do and gives you the most flexibility.
Thank you, Dave, Bill, Dennis, Dan!
Dave, your comment about throwing turnouts while the train is moving makes me feel better.
I was thinking of putting the pushbuttons on the fascia in front of each switch, so it is right there where I am following the train. I have no control panel, per se. I think the remote acts as the control panel. I think Dan's proposal is what I will do. Then I can do whichever way I want.
Thinking about routes, I'm not sure which way I would do them. However, if the switches are wired to the AIUs, then it would be easy to add them as I find a need for them.
Bentley looks cute, but since we rescued him as a 6-year old, he has issues. He is afraid of people and big dogs. So he barks like mad from a safe distance. He got used to us pretty quickly, though.
Here's my life experience regarding turnout control. I have 50+ turnouts with the levers/buttons located all together side by side on two control panels. AIU's are located just below the control panels but are not yet wired to the turnouts. For me, the big problem is which control operates which turnout ? And, can I figure all that out when trains are on the move. I envision DCS routes as my savior. I have no room for a track plan with graphically located turnout controls. I like being in one spot and watching the trains change routes. For me, flipping turnouts using the DCS remote or App is more cumbersome then hitting control panel levers/buttons. In the end, I like having the option of using either levers/buttons at a single location or AIU turnout control.
In my setup, all my DCS components are located below my control panel. Easy for servicing. As a result, long turnout control wiring is routed to the control panels for lever/button/AIU control. This configuration also gives me IMO more options in the future.
It's just the way I'm wired. At work, I always did the larger effort when I could have satisfied with a smaller effort. The larger efforts have future payback especially when asked to do the impossible and permitted the rabbit to appear from the hat.
Steve, more effort now will give me the best of each type of control.
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@Mark Boyce Mark your post regarding popped into my in box just now - 23 hours late - not bad considering it has been 2 to 3 days recently.
I have both DZ1000 and DZ2500 switch machines. All run though my operating panel using push buttons. Some I have double wired such as for the Ross crossover and other paired switches where they make up through sidings, so I do not have to remember to separately switch the entry and exit turnouts. (One pushbutton is wired to control 2 or more switches. The switch motors have to be the same because wiring is different for the two.)
I find neither are 100% reliable. When this happens its a for sure derailment, some worse than others. Personally using the TIUs to switch would be nice for pre-programmed routes. Otherwise I would stick with either panel mounted or at the switches. The DZ2500 is more problematic in that there is no way to throw the switch without power unlike the DZ1000.
As much as I like the app for operating engines, I don't think I could run engines trying to find the code for a switch in real time. I can barely do that with mine given the modest size of my layout and the length of trains I like to run. A handheld with separate function buttons would work better. As it is I have to swipe screens to move from operating to using the sound functions.
But we all like to operate differently, so choice is a good thing.
Dennis, I like it!! That dog bumps his head on the last post every time! I can feel his frustration.
Jeff, you are the second person I have heard from in the last couple days who had the same problem with messages coming in late.
I got thinking about it after writing my last post. I really don't have Much of any routes to take. I certainly don't have any crossovers like you. I tried the WIU when it first came out, and eventually sold it. I can see it would be easier to program names of switches, routes, accessories with the smart phone than it is with the handheld remote, but I can imagine myself having the same problem as you have scrolling past what I want. I'll still probably wire them out to the AIUs, but I may end up using the pushbuttons.
I did finally order an MTH 12-port terminal block to run the power connections for the switches. It should be here later in the week.
Yup... that dog and I have lot in common. I just ripped out my 2.2% grade great stone viaduct... replacing it with a 3.2% (ouch) grade to an elevated reversing loop. Hopefully, I get to scenery and structures this decade. 1. finish project. 2. rip apart. Repeat step 1. & step 2. 
Dennis, I agree. My grades are approximately 4%. I can’t say how many times I tore apart and rebuilt the grade on the K-Line trestle bents and the top and bottom of the grades for a smoother transition from level. I haven’t even really started scenery yet. 🤷♂️
Oh... the grade transitions ...the endless shaving off 1/128ths to achieve something acceptable. At least I figured out today that the RF16 Sharknose is the loco that needs the most forgiving transition.
I'd have a race with you on the scenery but I already have so many losses scratched into my belt that I had to switch to suspenders. Maybe we could beat Gunrunner 
on the scenery... he's being a little pokey! 
@Mark Boyce posted:As I have mentioned on other topics, our last daughter married in September, leaving us empty nesters. Just a week ago, I helped her and our son-in-law move the rest of her things out of an 11’ 6” x 11’ 4” basement room she had been using as an art studio. This will be my layout room. While I have built layouts in HO and N scales, this will be my first in O gauge, not counting the temporary 4x8 temporary layout that has our Christmas theme and my Ceiling Central RR in a similarly sized room diagonal to the new layout room.
I have hesitated starting a topic of my own layout design as I have been struggling getting some thoughts down on what I am looking to accomplish and realistically look at obstacles and how to address them. First, this is the most room I have ever had for a layout since my first back when I was about 12, but I never built in O gauge, so there are definite restrictions.
I envision this layout depicting the Appalachians, as I have observed in my home state of Pennsylvania and states of Virginia and West Virginia, where I have lived in the past. It seems I like anything that was around before I was born in 1956, so steam to diesel transition era works. I am not sticking to a year or decade. If there is a car or engine I like that is a bit newer, it will be on the layout. Here are some things I want to include:
- A small town
- Some mountains
- I want a look of the trains going somewhere, but realize I may have to rely on imagination in a room less than 12 x 12
- Coal trains and operating accessories
- Logging trains and operating accessories
- Mixed freight
- Passenger trains
- An area of operating accessories for future grandchildren which could be at a lower level than the rest of the track.
- There are more I will add as they come to mind or as you ask questions.
Some thoughts on how to accomplish this in such a small space. As the preliminary SCARM diagram shows. There is a sliding glass door on the right-hand wall as you enter the door from the rest of the basement. I need to keep full access to it. My thoughts have been a ‘U’ shaped layout with the open end of the ‘U’ facing the door. There are 2 windows as well. I do not want to be stretching across the layout, but may have to have turnback loops at the ends of the ‘U’. To accommodate my Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists, I think I would have to include a loop around the room. My thoughts have been to put that at the highest level, with lift-out bridges at the opening of the ‘U’.
These are initial thoughts that have been with me for a good while. It is time to put them out there for anyone who wishes to participate to ask questions, give suggestions, or just chat in general. At the outset, I want to thank everyone who contributes in any way. I want to get this close to what works best for me, because I do not want to count on doing heavy rebuilding at a later age. At 60, I realize I could be hampered in the heavier construction sooner than I would hope.
Mark,
As I've looked through the posts, I get the sense that you are more of a scale guy than a tinplater. If I'm right, than I'd really urge you to think about the scenes you want to depict almost before the track plan. Do you want that beautiful "J" to just go around a loop or do you want to use smaller engines like your PRR H and try to model a small branch line. Do you want to get serious about scenery or just "run trains?" Either way is valid and fun. It's about what will give you the most pleasure that matters..
I've been running a 13 1/2 x 15 foot layout for years which into a more toy like layout because my young grandchildren just love all the Lionel operating accessories. But we're about to construct a new master suite with a bonus 19 x 25 train room underneath it. So I'm going to try to design and build this in phases because it already feels overwhelming just to think about everything from layout design to flooring, lighting and where to put in a work shop. The folks on this forum have been wonderfully helpful, as I see they've been to you.
My room won't be ready for at least 6 months, but my first consideration will be how far apart to space the LED "florescent" lights, both laterally and longitudinally and want what "heat" level to use. The late Jim Barrett had a wonderful piece on this but did not deal with spacing the fixtures. So any ideas or experience will be very welcome.
Good luck with your layout. I look forward to comparing notes and sharing ideas with the group and you as our layout plans come together.
RubinG, congratulations on your pending room. My fortunes are similar to you in that I have a newly constructed room for my layout. For lights I used track lighting that swivel; and more can be added. Give consideration to outlets; not only in the walls but the floor too. What type of HVAC will there be, and are there humidity issues?
Dennis, for me the most finicky was one of the H9 Consolidations. All three H9s are MTH Premier, so I assume used the same tooling. However, the pilot of one is lower than the others. I learned a lesson, try every engine you have. The same goes with side clearances. Cab roofs and the long porch on the SD40-2 needed more clearance than the middle of the longest cars.
Rubin, thank you for reading through and commenting! You are right, I have always been a scale guy. I had no one in the family interested in trains, so I first got interested by looking at some Model Railroader magazines in the late '60s. I only switched from HO and N scales to O gauge 3-rail 10 years ago. The HO trains were too small for me to see the details and I had no room for O scale 2-rail. It was only when I saw MTH PS2 trains that I decided to move to this. If you haven't noticed, I really struggled with the small amount of trains, structures, and scenery I could fit into an 11x11 room. Even as I have all the benchwork done and track laid, I still think I could have made a better plan. The H9 is the dominant engine. I sold the J a while back. The H9 makes a nice steam engine to run in a small room. I do have some scenes from the Thomas Subdivision of the Western Maryland Railway that I want to replicate in a very compressed manner, but I want to get the wiring all in and tested before I get too far into those. Even a small layout has taken longer than I would have thought. Please keep reading and commenting.
As far as lighting goes, I put in two units that aren't track lights, but are 4 swiveling LED lights on arms that swivel. The lights themselves are at a fixed distance from each other. They don't work as well as I would have liked, but regardless, I need more lighting. It's always something.
@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:RubinG, congratulations on your pending room. My fortunes are similar to you in that I have a newly constructed room for my layout. For lights I used track lighting that swivel; and more can be added. Give consideration to outlets; not only in the walls but the floor too. What type of HVAC will there be, and are there humidity issues?
Jay Francis,
I’m concerned that track lighting won’t be as effective as four foot fixtures, but I’m open to ideas. Basically I’m thinking of an E shaped track plan with a folded dog bone around the the outer “c” and a yard/ switching area in the middle. Should I place row of lights over each leg? As to outlets, I am thinking about a fourplex every six feet. As to the middle of the floor, my builder had discouraged this, saying it will very costly. Any thoughts?
HVAC WILL BE A UNIT JUST FOR THE NEW addition and I anticipate that I’ll need to run two or three dehumidifiers to maintain 50%. Again all thoughts are welcome.
thanks
@Mark Boyce posted:Dennis, for me the most finicky was one of the H9 Consolidations. All three H9s are MTH Premier, so I assume used the same tooling. However, the pilot of one is lower than the others. I learned a lesson, try every engine you have. The same goes with side clearances. Cab roofs and the long porch on the SD40-2 needed more clearance than the middle of the longest cars.
Rubin, thank you for reading through and commenting! You are right, I have always been a scale guy. I had no one in the family interested in trains, so I first got interested by looking at some Model Railroader magazines in the late '60s. I only switched from HO and N scales to O gauge 3-rail 10 years ago. The HO trains were too small for me to see the details and I had no room for O scale 2-rail. It was only when I saw MTH PS2 trains that I decided to move to this. If you haven't noticed, I really struggled with the small amount of trains, structures, and scenery I could fit into an 11x11 room. Even as I have all the benchwork done and track laid, I still think I could have made a better plan. The H9 is the dominant engine. I sold the J a while back. The H9 makes a nice steam engine to run in a small room. I do have some scenes from the Thomas Subdivision of the Western Maryland Railway that I want to replicate in a very compressed manner, but I want to get the wiring all in and tested before I get too far into those. Even a small layout has taken longer than I would have thought. Please keep reading and commenting.
As far as lighting goes, I put in two units that aren't track lights, but are 4 swiveling LED lights on arms that swivel. The lights themselves are at a fixed distance from each other. They don't work as well as I would have liked, but regardless, I need more lighting. It's always something.
I'm a Pennsy buff and run an H/9, H-3, A5, B-6 and C-1 switchers as well as RS-1- SW-1 and RS-3s from MTH (not all at once!), PRR PA-1 and F-3. And of course the NYC counterparts for when I’m so moved.
As to N&W, if you haven’t already done so, check out whatever you can find of O. Winston Link’s photos. You’ll find great and evocative ideas for scenic vignettes.
Ruben, I have seen O. Winston Link's photographs. They are fantastic!
Mark,
You probably know this already, but I’ve been amazed by the lighting arrays Link had to use to get his night shots. Hundreds of bulbs, dozens of fixtures, time delay, etc. Amazing!
@Mark Boyce posted:Dennis, I agree. My grades are approximately 4%. I can’t say how many times I tore apart and rebuilt the grade on the K-Line trestle bents and the top and bottom of the grades for a smoother transition from level. I haven’t even really started scenery yet. 🤷♂️
Scenery is usually one of the last things I thought? One thing that I'm curious about is ballast after scenery by the rails, or is it a mesh of the two depending on what exactly you're adding? I would imagine ground layers, ballast, finish with details like grass, plants and trees if that is what you're doing. Even though I haven't started anything at all, that is what is burning in my head.
What do you intend to do Mark? Guessing that ballasting may not be on your agenda?
Rubin, I remember reading about the massive lighting Link used. It was worth the effort.
Dave, don’t let it burn in your head too long, or you may lose some circuits like I did! 😄😉
I prefer to not ballast until after all but the last scenic details are in. That way the ballast looks like a well groomed main line. Then I would add some weeds along lesser used sidings, sand on the grades, some coal in the yard. I painted all the roadbed light gray before laying track so it isn’t so noticeable until the time comes for ballast. I picked that idea up from something someone wrote several years ago.
Speaking of roadbed, I’ve always used cork. But I just found a box of Homabed in my store room. It’s probably 40 years old. Does anyone have any experience using this stuff?
Rubin, I have not used Homabed, but I have used Homasote on previous layouts. I did have a 12x4 sheet of Homasote stashed that I cut up for roadbed for my present layout. (I didn't know such a large sheet was ever available) I then lightly glued Midwest cork roadbed on top of that for the beveled edges to make it easier to ballast and retain the nice slope. With just a little carpenters glue, I am able to pull the cork off and reuse it when I make changes. I like Homasote and found it pretty easy to cut with a sharp carpet laying knife. That makes no dust and only takes a few passes with the knife. I would think Homabed would have all the great qualities, plus give the beveled edges and save on the cutting. As far as the age of your Homabed, I wouldn't worry that would make a difference over new. I acquired this 12x4 sheet by tearing apart a large table that was left behind in a house my mother-in-law bought. The previous owner was a seamstress, and had a hefty home made 12x4 table for laying out projects. The Homasote held dress maker's pins, as I could see pin holes in it. She had lined drawn across it at 1-inch intervals, which made it easy measuring to cut for the layout. I used a lot of the wood from the table for my layout. The point is, that sheet of Homasote was decades old, and worked well for me.
Here's an example.
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I know I’m a little late with this, but I’m glad to hear how well you’ve done post surgery. Happy to see you back in the saddle so to speak. 😉
Looks good Mark. Glad to see that you’re able to reuse so much material for the layout. One thing that I’ve used when cutting Homasote is a knife blade for a jigsaw. It cuts well with no dust.
Your wiring for the AIU’s is outstanding. A goal for most of us to try and emulate.
As far as switch control, I have some rocker switches set up around the layout that I have in front of the switch I’m controlling. I tend to follow the train around anyway, and that keeps me involved with the action. I can see the benefit of using an AIU to control the switches through DCS. Just my two cents.
Andy
Andy, I'm glad you are back. I am back in the saddle, albeit a very padded saddle! 
This is my first go at powered switch machines of any sort. In the past, I just switched them manually. Here, I needed them since some switches are on opposite sides of the lift up bridges, so I wanted remote control. I probably will use the pushbuttons that are within easy reach, so that means most of the switches.
Thank you for the compliments on the wiring. As I added more terminal blocks and wires for the switches, things got crowded very fast. I still have 4 more switches to wire, but here is how it looks today.
I do have to report that the switches I have wired work great! I did have to do some rewiring, as I reversed polarity of the relay boards when I decided to move them to the 12-port terminal board that I added in the middle. The 24-port board on the right side is for the DZ1000 switches. I could have gotten by with three 12-port boards and one 24-port board, but I had the 24-port boards, so I used them. Room for expansion. 
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Mark, that to me is fine art.
Thank you, Steve!!
One thing, I forgot to mention. I have two drawings that I will redraw when everything is working. I also need to label each AIU, terminal block, etc. I can remember what is what right now. However, if everything works well for a while, experience tells me I will forget what something is once I do have to troubleshoot something. If I put labels on ahead of wiring, I would probably end up covering some labels with wires and have to relabel anyway. I didn't take a photograph, but I got the second GRJ Watchdog generator installed on the outputs of the TIU that are all on the reverse side of this board. I want to get some Velcro sticky back to attach them to the board, since they are just hanging by the leads right now.
I don't know anything about DCS Mark, but it looks like you have a fine wiring all set up for control.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I don't know anything about DCS Mark, but it looks like you have a fine wiring all set up for control.
Dave, Thank you! Remember, looks can be deceiving. However, in this case things are working pretty well.
I'm waiting for someone to ask about lights in all my buildings. I have never done that before, so that will be another item to plan out, But I am going to get rolling on scenery before that. 
Well, lights would only apply mostly for buildings that are open at night or round the clock. Sure some may have lights for late afternoon, but it really depends on what you want lit. Inside lights, outside lights, guess it will just boil down to how you want to go with it. I know that if I ever get things going, I would want to see if I could play around with fake moonlight for night scenes. While this would only be for shots, there is a lot to consider. I would figure something like indirect light, meaning light being shot up to the ceiling and coming off of that to light as opposed to it shining down from the ceiling. Again, just something to think about now.
Dave, my guess is that we will move to a single level home before I get to putting in lights. At this point, I think I would save portions of the layout I like, and salvage wood, track, and structures for a new layout. Oh, can't forget salvaging the trains!!!!!!
Always save the trains Mark. Did you ever see the video on 4501? I think there was a picture of all the steam engines(Mikado's) lined up on tracks getting ready to head to scrap. Save the engines, save the engines!!!! Oh, and rolling stock, lol.
Mark that is looking really great, keep up that great work I am working on my control panel switch and turn table rotary switch wiring with LED's for each whisker track 38 of them. Can you email me how you wired the Remote Commanders into the TIU's I have 4 of them that I will be installing GRJ Watchdog circuits in and not sure how to wire them into the TIU? I am also rewiring that rotary switch as I do not like how it looks at first we used 16 gauge wire nd I am rewiring it with 24 gauge and cleaning up the routing also. Keep up the great work Mark.
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Rick, your control panel really looks great!!!
I had two double banana jacks from ages ago, so I used them. I bought two more, but the ones I bought won't let you plug another banana jack into it like the old ones. So, I wired a new one and an old one together, then was able to plug the banana jacks going to the terminal blocks into them. I do not know what you call each of the two different types. I bought the new ones from Digi-key.com. You could use something other than double banana jacks, but since I had the two already it works.
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@Mark Boyce posted:Rick, your control panel really looks great!!!
..., but the ones I bought won't let you plug another banana jack into it like the old ones. I do not know what you call each of the two different types....
Banana quitter and banana splitter?
@SteveH posted:Banana quitter and banana splitter?
In over 45 years in electronics, I never heard those terms, Steve! 😟
Sorry, I guess that's another Bad Dad Joke. It's all made up and the points don't matter.
@SteveH posted:Sorry, I guess that's another Bad Dad Joke. It's all made up and the points don't matter.
No, that’s a good joke! 😆
A forumite emailed me asking about the double banana plugs. He had picked out the right part. I only thought of using them because I knew I had a couple on hand. They are easy enough to purchase, but if I hadn't had them on hand, I probably would have just put large spade lugs on the wires for the Watchdog generators and tightened them under the TIU output binding posts. There is always more than one way of doing things like that.
Funny you mention labeling wires Mark. In my younger days I could remember exactly where each wire went and what it controlled. I guess those brain cells are no longer in operation so labeling and making a schematic are important.
Bob
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Ha ha, Bob! I like the minion with the bananas! There were so many times at work the last few years that I would work on something, make notes, then not see it for a year. When it came up again, even my own notes didn’t make sense! 🤷♂️
I should add this comment I made on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic for those who have complimented my wiring. "Yes, I have had to take more than one circuit apart because I connected wires to the wrong place. Reminds me of some comments Bob and I had on the Retiring topic." 
