Blackwater Canyon Line - November 17, 2024 - Scratch Built Church

@RubinG posted:

I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
Thanks,

Rubin

Rubin- a couple of options. You can install a Third Rail ERR AC Commander board. It will work with the pullmor motors. An alternative is to have the pullmor's replaced with DC can motors and install a Cruise Commander. I believe there's a member/ vendor on the forum who offers direct drop in replacements.
All of the ERR boards run on Lionel's TMCC/ Legacy system. I've done one conversion and have two more in the pipeline. One will be a AC commander so I can't say how well it controls the speed yet. I'm sure some of the experts will chime in with their advice.

Bob

@RubinG posted:

Dave, when he did your NYC 3000 Mohawk, did he swap out the Pul-Mor motor? If he did not, how well has the engine worked in TMCC? I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
May I ask what the cost was ( I’ve got 6 engines to “fix.”)?

Thanks,

Rubin

Yes, the motor is now a Pittman which will pull out the kitchen sink. Pat did quite a bit of work there besides the motor swap, so my price isn't just for the motor. The other thing is Alex M did all the electronic bits as well as some other stuff as well. So, my cost is more than what would be normal. Remember, #3000 has no TMCC guts in it other than after it was converted.

So, overall the work I had done is the cost of high end diesels or so, not a nice new shiny steam locomotive(that is from both shops added together). Depending on all of what you want done will definitely have different prices. If you can do some of the work yourself, that will definitely cheapen your cost as Bob says.

Being that there are a bunch of people who offer their services for all kinds of upgrades, prices vary from person to person obviously.

Also, my engine is now back to being my favorite, lol. When I had originally gotten it so many years ago, it was what I always ran under the Christmas tree, and is again. Being that I don't have a big enough layout(built yet), it will serve in under the tree service until such things change.

Mark, what are you going to be working on the rest of the week/after Christmas? I have only been reading about half pages as of late as there is so much stuff to catch up on most of the times. Never enough time.

Thank you everyone for giving Rubin some ideas about the engines with the Pullmor motors.

Dave, I started cutting and gluing a few pieces of Styrofoam to make a scenery base for this area.  It will be removable to get at wires.

It isn't far enough along, so I won't bother with a photograph.  I'm going to go around the layout and make bases.  I have some extruded Styrofoam and thin plywood to make the removable bases.  I have been storing a bunch of this white insulation cut to put between studs on 16" centers that my wife brought home from a thrift store a few years ago.  It's basically white beadboard.   I don't like working with it, but she will be happy when I put some of it to use.  I'll cover it over, so it really doesn't matter what it is.  It just makes a mess, as does all Styrofoam so what's it matter.

Removable--and even interchangeable--bases are an excellent plan.  The benefits are access, ability to work on the area on the bench rather than hunched over the layout, and, if you like, the ability to swap out scenes for changing themes, locations, or season.  Wise choice!

Thank you!  The ability to access some wiring and not reaching to the back of the layout are the first considerations.  Having a small layout, the ability to make extra scenes is the the thought that came next.  As has been the case throughout, I need to use that Styrofoam to make room for some extra buildings and hopefully store some interchangeable scenes.

Bill Bramlage had an article on this in CTT. He doesn’t like to to weather his structures but he’s an undeniably prolific and creative modeler.
on another front, I think that I’ve found a track plan for my new layout, based on Stuart Venit’s layout in the May 2016 OGR.
ove attached the plan, which I will evidence by 2 feet and substitute an engine terminal with turntable on the for the logging branch.
Any thoughts welcome.

Now that is an idea Mark. When I was building my Christmas tree layout, I was talking to Phil at work who was at the time an intern engineer. We both share a love of trains, and he had suggested the foam board to try to deaden sound. I did also use Rossbed for the roadbed on it, so no pesky magnification of sound as if the rails were right on it(I believe someone had posted about it having that effect somewhere).

After I had built it all, I had though about if it could be used to help add some scenery details. Well, I didn't go with that, but did have another idea over the summer. I had thought about something like dinner placemats being used to make a base for doing grass base or even creating a movable base that would be cut to a specific size for whatever was needed. It could be cut to hug the rails and provide other such spaces here and there. Since it is a plastic mat of sorts, figured it would fit into spots pretty well. Never thought about styrofoam for some reason. Maybe because I always think mountains when I see those.

Dave, Yes, I think the placemats would be too flimsy to move around.  My Christmas layout (which I didn't put up this year) is a sheet of 2" Styrofoam.  It is quite sturdy when moving around.  I used a square section of Styrofoam about 4x4 under the Christmas tree for several years in the past.

Hi Mark,

Being totally new to this hobby I am guessing you are planning to make a standard size scene so you can remove them for access and replace with a new scene to keep the interest. Do I have that right, or am I way off? If not way off I am very interested in how you mate the permanent scene with the removable scene to make it seamless. Thanks in Advance. John

John, Some scenes will just be nature (trees, rocks, etc) like the section I posted yesterday.  That one may never be changed out for another one, but only removed if I need to get at the wires for the track above it.  I am certainly not done adding and forming foam, but this one will be about 2 feet long and less than a foot deep.  I roughly drew the outline of it in red.  (Boy so I have a time drawing with the mouse)  I may put in a trackside shed or service road, or it may just be rocks and a hillside.

In this one I had initially planned to have a town on a hillside.  That was before I acquired the model of the Thomas, West Virginia engine house.  It is about 4 feet long and a foot deep, and has a lot of work to be done before it takes it's final shape.  I still plan to put some buildings on it and trees to partially hide a power station backdrop making it look like it is in the distance.  For my thinking, this one lends itself more towards building more than one at some point to change out scenes.  Regardless, the first reason to have this one removable is that I can build and scenic it at a convenient table instead of reaching over the tracks at 50" high. 

In the second photograph, I need to raise the backdrop since I am covering up the trees.  Fortunately, it is not attached to the wall yet, since I thought I would be altering it.  I also need to pull out the right hand section and paint it.  I ran out of backdrop that I bought from a forum member.

You raised a good point about how to hide the joint.  Planting bushes or trees along the seam is the easiest method.  Where that isn't available, I have seen where modelers have used the edges of buildings, stone walls, or some overlap of scenery.  Sometimes, it is difficult to hide the seam, like if a road crosses it.  I think there you could rough in the road, the with the removable section in position, you could match up the scenery pretty closely.  Visitors would hardly notice unless the seam is pointed out.

Mark,  The question is whether you’ll notice the seam.  I recall someone hanging a hot air ballon or a model plane from the ceiling in front of a seam that not only hides the seam, but adds a bit of interest.  Just a thought for you.

Bob

Congrats Mark on Phase Completion!  A thought occurred to me regarding holding the insulators straight when gluing on the transformer - possibly using a piece of that white styrofoam, jam the insulators in where you want them, ensuring their bases extend the same distance, and glue them all at once.  Lift off the styrofoam when the glue has dried.  One-time use jig!

Thanks for sharing your progress and for being so personable and transparent with your process and life.

Mark, forward thinking idea to make the foam removable to access wiring. Can’t wait to see both scenes take shape.

Andy

Thank you, Bob, Dan, Andy!!

Bob, you are absolutely right; the builder always knows every flaw in his work.  He has to decide if he will try to improve or if he can live with it.  The baloon is a novel idea for hiding a seam.  The imagination is the limit of how to hide any flaw.

Dan, I think your idea of the one time jig could work.  I'll have to try it.

Andy, my forward thinking comes from the experience of doing too much backward thinking.  I have gotten ahead of myself too many times on this layout.

Mark, I confess, I’m guilty of the same thing! I’ve gotten ahead of myself and cost myself time more than I’d like to admit

Andy

Interesting to watch this discussion.

Seam in a road. Where we live, there is usually a road crew with signs, trucks, people, etc and you can’t see much of what they are doing. This should work on the layout. Road is under repair and hides the seam. Remove/reassemble in 5 minutes.

Or you could stage an accident, flat tire, etc.

One unrelated question. The floodlight tower… is it LED or the old burn out every hour style bulb? If no LED, don’t forget to convert it while you can easily do so.

Andy, Sorry for you, but glad to know I'm not the only one and am losing it! 

Bill, Excellent scene and point of interest.  Road repair is certainly something we see here in Pennsylvania all spring, summer, and fall.  I just saw something that says Pennsylvania roads are in the worst shape in the nation.  I know our Ohio and Michigan friends, and maybe some others, would beg to differ.    There is a steep, winding road going down into town a mile from home; (wait a minute! every road going into town is steep and most are winding.  The couple that aren't winding look like you are going down one of the inclines in Pittsburgh off of Mount Washington )  They have worked since spring putting in a new water line down that hill.  They made scads of straight cuts in the asphalt.  Now they are filled in with black asphalt making for a nice straight line, although they are pretty bumpy.

The floodlight tower is a '70s era plastic unit that someone threw in the box when I bought something here on the Forum.  You might say the LED conversion has started, in that it came with 3 of the bayonet type incandescent bulbs missing and one socket has a Christmas tree light instead of the stock bulb.  It is on the list for LEDs when I replace the bulbs in my passenger cars and cabooses.  The plastic also needs a paint job.  Thank you for pointing it out, because as we have been discussing; I can get ahead of myself!! 

I knew that I was approaching 5 years since I started this thread.  My initial post dated January 8, 2017 is quoted below.  It has also been 2 years since I gave up on Plan 'C' and started the present layout, Plan 'D'.  (Yes, I date myself back to 'Back to the old drawing board' days as a draftsman using pencil on velum, as opposed to the 'computer age' where the plans would have been numbered 1.0 through 1.4.)  But I digressed.

@Mark Boyce posted:

As I have mentioned on other topics, our last daughter married in September, leaving us empty nesters.  Just a week ago, I helped her and our son-in-law move the rest of her things out of an 11’ 6” x 11’ 4” basement room she had been using as an art studio.  This will be my layout room.  While I have built layouts in HO and N scales, this will be my first in O gauge, not counting the temporary 4x8 temporary layout that has our Christmas theme and my Ceiling Central RR in a similarly sized room diagonal to the new layout room.

I have hesitated starting a topic of my own layout design as I have been struggling getting some thoughts down on what I am looking to accomplish and realistically look at obstacles and how to address them.  First, this is the most room I have ever had for a layout since my first back when I was about 12, but I never built in O gauge, so there are definite restrictions.

I envision this layout depicting the Appalachians, as I have observed in my home state of Pennsylvania and states of Virginia and West Virginia, where I have lived in the past.  It seems I like anything that was around before I was born in 1956, so steam to diesel transition era works.  I am not sticking to a year or decade.  If there is a car or engine I like that is a bit newer, it will be on the layout.  Here are some things I want to include:

1. A small town
2. Some mountains
3. I want a look of the trains going somewhere, but realize I may have to rely on imagination in a room less than 12 x 12
4. Coal trains and operating accessories
5. Logging trains and operating accessories
6. Mixed freight
7. Passenger trains
8. An area of operating accessories for future grandchildren which could be at a lower level than the rest of the track.
9. There are more I will add as they come to mind or as you ask questions.

Some thoughts on how to accomplish this in such a small space.  As the preliminary SCARM diagram shows. There is a sliding glass door on the right-hand wall as you enter the door from the rest of the basement.  I need to keep full access to it.  My thoughts have been a ‘U’ shaped layout with the open end of the ‘U’ facing the door.  There are 2 windows as well.  I do not want to be stretching across the layout, but may have to have turnback loops at the ends of the ‘U’.  To accommodate my Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists, I think I would have to include a loop around the room.  My thoughts have been to put that at the highest level, with lift-out bridges at the opening of the ‘U’.

These are initial thoughts that have been with me for a good while.  It is time to put them out there for anyone who wishes to participate to ask questions, give suggestions, or just chat in general.  At the outset, I want to thank everyone who contributes in any way.  I want to get this close to what works best for me, because I do not want to count on doing heavy rebuilding at a later age.  At 60, I realize I could be hampered in the heavier construction sooner than I would hope.

I thought it would be an interesting exercise to look back at my first thoughts and see where 5 years and the input form so many great, knowledgeable friends has taken me.  Since I have little to add to the 'Finished wiring, What's next?' transition, I thought I would throw this out for any reflection any of you may offer.  Feel free to go back and peruse Page 1 if you wish.

Happy New Year!!!

Happy New Year Mark! I went back over page 1 as you suggested. I think you have accomplished much of what you set out to do. What’s next? I think to choose various areas of the layout and complete the scenery for that space. Which area you choose is best known to you.

Andy

Mark, you’ve made plenty of progress. It may seem like it’s a slow journey but in following your posts. I don’t see to many do overs or anything getting ripped up and starting over. You hit quite a few things on your checklist.
I started over 30 years ago. Still working on the same layout. Envisioned heavy mainline traffic modeling the NYC and having numerous passenger trains. I have a large layout space. But what I was trying to accomplish just wasn’t working. The layout just seemed overwhelmed with trains. The layout never changed that much. But instead of buying ready to run NYC, B&A equipment. I turned to modeling the Rutland. Which involves a lot of modeling as not much is available. Luckily they really don’t  have a huge variety roster to model. Smaller engines and few but short passenger trains. I have many duplicate engines just with different numbers.
The videos you’ve posted look good to my eye. Smaller engines and decent sized consists. While not a huge area. The twice around with grades does make it seem like the train is going somewhere other than a circle. Hope to see some scenery this year on it. That will help pull off the effect even more.

Mark you have very well with your layout construction and looks very nice. You are WAY ahead of me I am still wiring.  I built 4 of GRJ watchdogs and got them installed this weekend and that is about where I will take a break. I ran out of two wire colors and had to order 2 more 100 foot roles of each. Keep up the great work you have a lot to be proud of and accomplished.

Mark,

I agree with the above statements. You have come a long way with this project and have made great use of your space. I think the pace you have taken has made for the necessary time to just run trains. The next phases coming will present you with a lot of creativity but if those trains are not running as desired, it will take away from it.  Congratulations on your progress and thanks for sharing it with all of us.

Dave

It's important that we note where we have been and how we got to the present state.  "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Keep up the good work!

George

Mark, if you are half as complementary to your family as you are to others on this forum you are in a great place regardless of the train layout.

I have enjoyed this past year watching your progress, and was inspired by your posts to share mine.  Happy new year!

There is a lot that you have completed and probably had not thought about 5 years ago. The bridges are something that come to mind or relays and all that fun stuff. Seems to me that when you ran the trains in the Fall and had your dream consist on the tracks you reached a major milestone.

Here is to the next five years without the medical issue.

Mark......keep up the great work.......and, thank you for sharing your journey with us!

Peter

And let's not forget, knee replacement and back surgery in between....

You've made great progress Mark. I've enjoyed following your build as time has gone by. I'm 7 years in at the end of the month and I can't believe how fast the time has gone.
Needless to say, you have stuck to your plan for the most part. With some nudging on the engine house and yard.... . The layout is going to be beautiful when it's done. Run trains and enjoy your accomplishments. The scenery will get there in due time.

Bob

Thank you everyone for the comments!

Andy, Yes I made a start on scenery.  Not much to speak of yet.  This was made from a bunch of left over pieces.  I do need to buy some more Styrofoam for the base.

Dave C, You are right.  Once I got started on Plan D, construction has flowed pretty well.  I did hit a lot on the checklist.  One thing that I didn't is like you switching to Rutland.  The N&W J and B&O Cincinnatian are long gone; sold and much more Western Maryland has been purchased.  I do have a B&O and a Chessie engine and a couple caboose of each.

Rick,  I'm glad you got the GRJ Watchdogs working.   It is interesting you mentioned wire.  I have plenty of the #14 red and black I used for the track power feeds, but barely have any of the smaller wire I used for the switches and uncouplers.  I switched colors a couple of times for one more run, but it is obvious where the changes are.  I just picked up the corrected drawings yesterday, and will have to make final copies before some of the scratch-outs don't make sense to me anymore.  I'll have to buy more wire before the next wiring project.

Dave, So far running trains has worked out pretty well.  The last problem was where one engine hit the DZ1000 mounting screw, but that wasn't much of an issue.

George, You are right about looking back and not forgetting where you came from.   That can help pinpoint where a particular action led to a problem down the road that can be remembered for future problems.

Dan, Thank you!  I'm glad to be able to inspire others, just like others inspired me.

Bill, Five years ago, and even 2 years ago, I had no intention of buying any AIUs.  Now I have two in service and one extra.  Thank you for all the help on getting them setup and wired.  That doubleheader coal train with the pusher was a particular goal.  I actually let it sit on the layout and didn't run any other trains for about a month because I hated to break up the train.  The next 5 years without medical issue would be great!  Between my wife and I, we have had 13 surgeries performed by that orthopedic group in the last 20 years.  The most serious of those have been in the last 5 years.    Both the knee and the hand specialists always chuckle when they see us back!  $$

Peter, Thank you!

Bob, How could I forget the knee and back surgeries??    Today was rough taking down the Christmas tree and some other assorted decorations.   I intended to leave the yard Nativity out there past January 6th.  If the weather is too bad, it may stay until spring.  You are right about sticking to the plan.  The enginehouse and yard were new.  I intended to fit in an extra siding or two, but didn't know where until I had the track basically done. 

I have been moving stuff around under the layout making some more room.  Work space is really at a premium.

Thank you again for all the great comments!

You should post some videos of the trains making their way around your layout Mark!

Bill Yo, I have one of the train Bill Webb mentioned above.  I’ll have to look it up and post it.  What I need to do is get the hoppers off the layout and do a video of a mixed freight or passenger train.  Thank you for the suggestion!!!

You had the video of the hopper train and I really enjoyed it! I'm the type of person that likes to see the entire layout instead of trying to assemble it in my head from pictures.

I'll see what I can do to show the whole layout, Bill!

Your progress despite the medical issues is re-Mark-able. 

Seriously, I know how that goes.  Just the most recent three years:  my wife had three hip replacements in one year (2018, all on the same hip), I was hospitalized in 2019, and my wife broke her ankle in 2020 with a long convalescence.  Let's say that progress on my layout has been minimal, so I am very impressed with what you have managed to do. 

Happy New Year Mark. 5 years, oh my goodness. Seems like that will hit the York 5 years ago first timers reunion for us. Glad to see you get going on things and come out where you have gotten to.

I remember what Gun Runner John said about scenery, which is an extremely helpful perspective to have. He said, "I can do everything with electronics, Harry is the scenery guy. I don't need too much fancy stuff..." Or something pretty much on par with that.

The main thing is that you are still moving right along(down the tracks am I allowed to say?). While it may have been a long bit since I have really looked hard at things on this topic, it always brings a smile a mile wide just reading a few comments or a few pages(if possible for me if time permits). I still think one of the best things I had seen last year was the bridges and how you made them lift bridges. Gotta give that to you. Keep things going Mark, and who knows, maybe my Railroad CEO will eventually decide to break ground, lol.

Steve, thank you for the compliment.  Seeing your post reminds me to remark that I have the parts you sent me to fix the top of the smaller truss bridge sitting on a shelf.  IT is interesting, that when the train is running, I never notice the gap on the top of my bridge.  I'll get to that one day.  I'm sorry about all of your surgeries, especially about your wife's trouble with the hip.

Dave, thank you!  Yes we are coming up on that meeting at our first trip to York.  I still remember you walking up to me, and I didn't recognize you because of your sunglasses.  I still have my two York passes in the holder hanging in the train room.  Thank you about the lift bridges.  It just shows what we can learn by sharing on the Forum.  I got the idea and some coaching from Mike G., then I worked out how to adapt it to my situation.  I've been pleased it still works good.  I hope you get time to break ground as well.

You've come a long way in 5 years and have trains up and running so feel good about your accomplishments!

-Greg

Greg, Thank you!  Yes I am pleased.  This is the farthest I have gotten on a layout in 25 years.  Raising our family and moves to different houses because of employment changes took priority, as they should.

Mark, Reflecting on the last five years, well since I've only been on this forum for less than one, I can only say that from reading past posts that you have a great layout well underway.  Well planned and executed trackwork, excellent wiring, two awesome lift bridges, and a good start on the scenery base.  All this is a huge accomplishment and something to be proud of!

Perhaps even more importantly, is the advice, moral support and encouragement you continually offer to others here on the forum.  I'm very glad you and others with a similar mindset are a part of this community.  Thank you for all of your contributions.

Steve, thank you for the encouraging words to me.  I totally agree that there are so many folks here who have a similar mindset.  You are welcome, I am happy to encourage others.  You have contributed so much t this forum yourself that I wouldn't have thought you have only been here less than a year!!!

BillYo, I am working on setting up a new train to video on the layout.  I hope to have something to share soon!

Mark, you're welcome. Thank you for the compliment.