Blackwater Canyon Line - November 17, 2024 - Scratch Built Church

Thank you, Michael, Rich, Jerry, Bob, Steve, John!!

Rich, your layout looks great!

Jerry, As a former N Scaler and HO scaler, your layout looks great!  I have a roll of plaster cloth on the shelf under the layout, that I bought a couple years ago to give a try.  I didn't expect it to take this long to get to using it.  Thank you for the great photographs of your layout.  That gives me inspiration to get at it with the plaster cloth on mine.

Bob and Steve, there are many small waterfalls along the real Blackwater Canyon as the Back Fork of the Cheat River falls many feet in a short distance coming off the mountain.  The largest falls is Blackwater Falls in Blackwater Falls State Park outside of Davis, West Virginia.  I am suspecting I will have to do a good bit of trial and error to get something looking acceptable.

John, Thank you on the station.  I'm glad you are catching up on reading while in rehab!  I sometimes had difficulty getting comfortable enough to read much in the first few weeks after my surgeries.  I hope you get going again quickly!

Looks like you're back on the roll Mark! Things are literally shaping up.

Dave

Looking good Mark, Like Dave said things are coming right along! I will be fallowing you along the way!

@Keystone posted:

Jerry, great looking N-gauge.  Hope that you will share more info about your well detailed N layout.

Thanks, Keystone!  Haha, always happy to show my layouts.  I'll try not to abuse Marks's thread, but ask any questions that come to mind.

I started with this.  With two large O scale layouts in the basement already, I was out of room.  We don't shoot pool anymore so N made sense, and the 1", 4X8 foam board sits on top of an old wood 4X8 on top of the pool table.  I added pieces on three of the four sides.

I ended up with this.  It's mostly foam, which I'd rarely worked with before.  Always wanted Yankee Stadium and lucked out finding an old model, perfect N scale at 1:160, which turned out to be the hardest kit I ever put together.

The table, with pieces added, is about 9x6.  Kato track is best, but for the yard and switches it is too large so I used Atlas flex track and switches.  They are all manual because the switch motors would take up too much room.  The slopes are mostly WS risers, taped over to look solid.

These buildings are mostly Outland Models.  No glue, fit precisely.  You need to add the lighting and paint.

These planetary cars are battery powered and look sensational.  You turn them on and off with a magnet.  Can't get them in O scale.

I love those WS buildings. Perfect details.  I also used their lighting system for the first time.  Ain't cheap, but gives you lots of flexibility while you're trying to decide where to place things.  They also have those single stick-ons that you can use with stuff that has no lights in them.

Jim at Bridgeboss provided the solution for my elevated line.  A lot of superglue, spray paint, and patience.

I run six trains at a time.  Three are conventional, three are DCC controlled.  Good sound and functions.  With N, you need AT LEAST two engines to pull long consists.  That's why DCC, so you can easily lash them up.

Sorry Mark, this came out longer than I thought, but hope you guys enjoy it.

Jerry

That looks great Jerry. Fits right in with your basement full of trains. I grew up with HO since I was an 8 YO. When I got back into the hobby several years ago and wanted to build a layout I decided on O since I always loved my father's old tinplate.

I'm sure Mark will agree.

@JerryG posted:

Always wanted Yankee Stadium and lucked out finding an old model, perfect N scale at 1:160, which turned out to be the hardest kit I ever put together.

Do you know who made the kit?

@PSM posted:

Do you know who made the kit?

Haha, sort of.  I can't find my original link.  It was a guy who was a big Yankee fan, serious graphics guy.  It's all finely printed cardboard that you have to punch out of flat sheets and fold into precisely cut slots.  It looks great, but hard to fit everything perfectly.  I used a lot of tape on the backsides, but very little glue.  A lady named Ellen on EBay said she had 20 left.  Her pal Joan lives in Westport, CT, and I live in CT.  They have a shop.  Joan ended up sending me the kit.  Cost was $100, including the shipping.  I did find our emails when we were arranging the sale.  I have Joan's email address.  I'm sure she'd be pleased to discuss a sale.  Let me know if you'd be interested.

Jerry

@JerryG posted:

Haha, sort of.  I can't find my original link.  It was a guy who was a big Yankee fan, serious graphics guy.  It's all finely printed cardboard that you have to punch out of flat sheets and fold into precisely cut slots.  It looks great, but hard to fit everything perfectly.  I used a lot of tape on the backsides, but very little glue.  A lady named Ellen on EBay said she had 20 left.  Her pal Joan lives in Westport, CT, and I live in CT.  They have a shop.  Joan ended up sending me the kit.  Cost was $100, including the shipping.  I did find our emails when we were arranging the sale.  I have Joan's email address.  I'm sure she'd be pleased to discuss a sale.  Let me know if you'd be interested.

Jerry

I may be interested in picking one up, can you pass on her email?  My email is in my profile.

Keystone, thank you for asking Jerry for more information about his N scale layout.

Jerry, thank you for posting the information, photographs, and videos of your really nice layout.  The Bridgeboss elevated track looks great, as does the Yankee Stadium.  Woodland Scenics buildings really look great, but they take up a lot of room in O gauge.  I have a couple, but sold a couple because I just don't have the room.

Things are really coming together Mark! Well thought out lift out section options.  I have a pop out section on my layout, and I’ll be using the pink extruded foam. It would be lighter in an awkward space. Would that be something for you to consider? It might make the sections easier to lift without the need of a handle.
The seams are a challenge for sure, but always a way to disguise them with scenery of some sort. I’m going to use a WS product that creates ripples or light waves on the water. Maybe that product can help hide the seams in the water.

Andy

Thank you, Andy!

Here is the 'uppermost' section with an extra 1" piece of Styrofoam glued to the underside.  That makes a 1" fall in the river right at the joint.  It gives me a rough idea of what I could do at the seam.  I don't know if the river will be that wide when done, but I gave myself room for a rocky bottom and banks.  As far as lifting it out of position. I can always reach under the layout, and push them up, then grab them from above.  I thought it would be neat to have something to lift them right out standing up straight.  The way I have been going, I don't want to have to get under the layout when I am feeling my worst. 

On a side note, I worked on the upper lift up bridge to get a better alignment in the down position.  I had settled for it coming to rest about 1/16" off in the pocket I made with wood blocks.  I had been nudging it over with my hand to give proper track alignment.  Now it falls right into place.

Great build Mark! Thanks for sharing your experience/journey with all of us. Some great advice throughout your entire thread. I only read a few pages but I’ll definitely be back for tips on my current rebuild. Keep up the great work!

@Mark Boyce I think you are having a lot of work done on your layout! great job!

Mark I got behind and just reread what you are doing.

Is it practical to hide some of the drop with rocks, ripples, etc past the waterfall. I was thinking about the James River and the fall line at Richmond and realized that the falls are partially hidden by the downstream features.

Is this for “emergency” use or will it be more often?

Thank you, Rich, Leandro, Bill!!

Rich, I'm glad you are reading through the thread.  Thank you for the compliment on the good advice.  I think the best advice comes from all of us pooling our knowledge.  Some folks have expert knowledge in one area, others in another area, and sometimes getting different ideas from different folks lets me decide what is the best solution for my situation.

Leandro, sometimes I think I haven't done much, then I look back at the dates a page or two back and see progress has been made.

Bill, First of all, I hope your knee replacement went well and you are progressing well in PT.

I know the James River at the fall line quite well.  I crossed the James River on the Boulevard (Nickel) Bridge going to and from work every day in 1976-77.   I worked for Vepco at an office just off The Boulevard.  Every day I had to go to the headquarters building downtown at 7th and Franklin to check things out at the microwave hut on the roof.  Then crossed the James River to the System Operator office in Manchester South Side, then back to the telecom office.  Those were the early days of telemetry, and the on site visit was necessary.  So, I made 4 river crossings every work day.  That said, I know what you mean, there isn't really an actual falls, just lots of small drops.  If you stand in a stream like that and look upstream, you see layer upon layer of flat water with little drops in between.  Based on what I did on the layout yesterday and just now, I think that is a good possibility here.

Yesterday, I looked at where I was going to have the stream pass under the upper track and to the backdrop.  Here is the prime location in my opinion.  I had a nice foam portal and wing walls that would nicely represent culverts on the prototype that let tributaries flow into the Black Fork.  I cut it to size to look like this.

I knew it would be partially covered by the foam base for the scenery, but was disappointed it looked like this.  I have trouble visualizing things.  I have to do it.

Of course trimming the banks back would help, but not enough.  Here are the other potential spots to the right of the one I planned.

The second photographs shows wires to the track above to the right of the culvert.  There is another pair of wires for the other track and wires for the DZ1000 back there as well.  That part of the scenery does need to be removable for maintenance only.

I ended up removing the extra section of foam that I added underneath two modules a few days go.  This looks much better, and will look better still once I carve out the banks a little more.

In the last photograph, the stream will curve around and under the bridge and off the front of the layout with low banks.

Bill, to answer your question the intent was to remove these only for maintenance.  A secondary thought was to remove them for actual construction.  Actually, there is no reason to remove the one in the left of the next to last photograph, because there are no wires there.  Yes, if I put buildings there, I could put lights in them, but the buildings will all be removable, and I'll put in plugs so the wires can be disconnected when removing the building.  Here is the only place of concern on the module with the culvert.

I could actually just make a small section of scenery removable to get at that.  That would allow me to not have to worry the water area being crossed by a seam at all.  Lots of folks say it is easier to work on scenery at the workbench, and then place the module on the layout.  I am able to touch the backdrop at every spot while standing at the layout edge, so it isn't like I would be stretching over anything to build scenery in place.  I don't have a workbench anyway.  Here is my "workbench".

If I need more table space, I have to pull my wife's car out of the garage and set up a card table to work on.  I don't know where I would store the module between work sessions anyway, except to move it back onto the layout and get glue and paint on everything while moving it.  That isn't a good idea.  So, I think I will just make small pull out sections of scenery where the wires are located.

At least that is the plan at this moment. 

Trial and error equals what appears to be a doggone good plan. Good job Mark. You have made a lot of trips across the James.

The knee. The Lord has handled this.

Walked into the house three hours after surgery. PT less than 24 hours after surgery, pain level never over a 3, took a cane in case I needed it, after P T had ice on my leg, “Mr Webb, you forgot your cane.”

Measurements that day were 113 flexion and 2 extension which the PT guy couldn’t believe. Monday they were 115 and 0. Saw the doctor’s PA Monday. Paula said that she had a funny look when I walked in. She said that I was so far outside the normal parameters that I was off the chart. We talked less than 5 minutes and she released me. “Call if you need anything.”

I was sitting on my train stool yesterday rolling around and working when it occurred to me that I might want to consider how to get up. Then I realized that I knew how to do so from my first knee surgery when I was finally able to use the stool after 3-4 months.

My doctor does what he calls a Jiffy Knee and doesn’t cut the muscle or tendon. If anyone is interested in info on him, send me an E-mail. Rich Holden who helps on the layout is a retired orthopedic surgeon. He has been amazed and told me that I don’t need PT,  can do two exercises, and should be ready to go in three weeks.

Good for you. I am bone on bone right knee. Staring into surgery. I will mention to my Doc your guys work.

Rich

Bill, Thank you on the trial and error!  I'm glad your knee is doing great!!!   Hooray!!   Hopefully they will be doing a Jiffy Knee if I need my other knee done someday.  The mess the scar tissue caused ended in much longer PT and was far more painful than the actual knee itself in my case!

Looking great Mark. I tried taking a look at my lunchtime but for some reason the net service was very spotty. All I got was the blue and gray background to show up and no conversation bits. Was taking forever to load so I figured I would have a look when I got home. Nice goings on.

It seems that all of us have trains and knees in common. It makes sense because, after all, our new knees include plastic, metal, glues, screws, construction, reconstruction and modeling. 😉HMMM!

Mark, your work is beautiful!

@Mark Boyce  @Bill Webb

Bill congrats on the successful replacement - you are poster boy for a successful outcome.

Mark nice progress on Blackwater. I am posting photos of my removable scenery on the main layout thread - don't want to usurp your thread.  Jeff

I really like the progress you are making.  It does seem slow at times - I'm finishing up a corner of my layout as well to get the upper level finished before I solder wires to the track and it seems like it's taking me forever but I do notice progress so hang in there.   I'm determined to take the lessons learned from my last layout to heart to avoid those headaches.  You're going about things the right way - take your time, figure things out and then get to building.   I'm in the same boat in that I'm a lousy artist and have trouble visualizing finished scene from a blank spot - I need lots of pictures and input from my artistic wife.

-Greg

Thank you, Dave, Rubin, Jeff, and Gregg!

Dave, bummer!  A boring lunch time!

Rubin, excellent comment about modelers and our knees!

Jeff, I saw your post over on the other topic.  Well done!

Greg, I think a slower pace lets me step back and look things over a bit and see places to make corrections, instead of plowing through with a lot of work, then facing the challenge of living with mistakes or removing a lot of work to make corrections.  Our older daughter is the one who could visualize and draw up things in her mind.

Looking really good Mark!  Thank you for the inspiration... after 16 months I'm finally there (sort of) for structures and scenery.  So many moments of lets change just 'one' more thing... but, all I have to do is check in on you and it keeps me plowing ahead.

@RubinG posted:

It seems that all of us have trains and knees in common. It makes sense because, after all, our new knees include plastic, metal, glues, screws, construction, reconstruction and modeling. 😉HMMM!

Mark, your work is beautiful!

If only, like trains, we could make our knees work via command control instead of conventionally !

Mark I'm liking the progress on your layout. Following your thread. I need some ideas once I finally get to landscaping my layout.

Both of my knees are giving me trouble. I finally had the right one checked out. After doc visit, x-ray's, MRI, ortho specialist visit and a little over a $1,000 outta pocket I received a shot in my knee. According to the ortho specialist my knee is in great shape. However the under side of my knee cap has severe deterioration, bone to bone and arthritis.

Only boring if I can't do anything Mark. There are some things I can manage to do on my phone during lunch. Net always seems spotty every now and then, lately moreso. Could be that they are working around in the area and that is why. Progress looks good, that's for sure.

About the river, when you do get around to that portion of work to be done, what sort of work would the river be or is that still on the drawing board? Just curious, but would definitely like to hear what you may/got planned.

Thank you, Dennis, Richie, RJ, Dave!

Dennis, I'm glad to give you some inspiration to carry on.  As anyone who followed this thread can see, I had the same issue wanting to get settled on the changes/additions to benchwork and track before moving forward with scenery.  Sometimes someone else on the Forum gives me that little nudge as well after seeing what he is doing.  I'll be looking forward to seeing how you scenic your nice layout,

RJ and Dave, sometimes I have a good idea of how I want to scenic, but on this layout I have to make so many compromises because of lack of space, those ideas have to be changed drastically.   After 10 years in O gauge, I still think like an HO modeler.  Dave, if you mean what material I want to use for the water feature, I still have no sure idea.  I'm thinking the poured epoxy like Woodland Scenics would be the best choice so you can see through the shallow water to stones  below.  The painted water surface and shiny coats painted on top seem to me to be best suited for deep water, lakes and harbors.  I do have to include my dad and his friend both catching trout, that I do know.    Dad's friend actually fished this area of West Virginia when he worked for Westinghouse at Mount Storm power station which my printed backdrop represents.  He actually got me the application in 1976, which after submitting it, I ended up getting hired to work in Richmond first.

Richie, I know the problem, the doctor forgot to give me the remote when he replaced my knee!! 

RJ, I took my dad to get a shot in his knee 3 or 4 years ago.  That was all he needed!!  He's 91 now.  The shots didn't do diddly for me.

On to the knees.  As with cataract surgeries, I was surprised at how many folks had to have them done in their early 60s like me.  My replacement was doing well at my 2-year checkup at the end of October; right before I went on Medicare.  Over the winter, it has started little popping and gritting and is more painful.  I just scheduled a visit with the orthopedic the week after next to see what that is all about, if anything.  Monday, I do have to get a myelogram and CT scan on my lower back to see why the sciatic nerve in my other leg still gives me grief.  The lumbar fusion was supposed to fix that.  Oh well, like I told the back orthopedic last week, I'm glad they pushed me to retire a couple years earlier than I was planning.  I don't have to worry about hassles missing so much work, or just slacking while there. 

When doing the water pour, refer to Eric's Trains video of his pouring of water. I watched that a great long time ago. Of course you have to do all the mud/creek bottom scenery before pouring as well as making sure not to shake the epoxy water as it will create bubbles. Eric used a pin to pop the bubbles that formed from his pour. I think two of the hardest things from doing that sort is pouring so little at a time as recommended on the package as well as the potential for dripping. Make sure you somehow seal the riverbed so it does not have room to leak. How to do that, depends really on how your riverbed would come together. Test pours elsewhere definitely would be something I know I would do because I would wind up making a huge mess, plus it will give you an idea how it will work when you go for it for real.

Dave, Thank you for the tip on Eric's video.  I haven't watched any of his videos for a long time, but those I saw were always very good.  I'll look it up.  I've read articles on the subject, but don't think I have watched any videos.  I am aware, the stuff will find the tiniest hole to go just like water, even though it is much thicker.  I'm thinking somehow, you have to do many small pours for a stream with riffles, or no matter where you pour, it will eventually mostly wind up at the lowest point on the streambed; in other words at the temporary dam at the front edge of the layout.    I won't be getting to that until next winter at the earliest. 

I didn't mention what is on my rolling workbench yesterday.  I have painted the reinforced walls for the Thomas West Virginia Station kit from Carolina Craftsman Kits.  Here is a cropped closer view.  After gluing reinforcing stripwood on the backs of the walls and beveling the corner edges, I painted them with acrylic craft paint.  I used a more brown color for the first light coat, which I didn't like.  I put a thin coat of burgundy on top of that and like the brick color.  The mortar joints are so thin, I couldn't get thinned paint to seep in, and it all came off when I wiped the bricks.  I have never had success using joint compound for mortar, and thought it would be hard to get it in the paper thin mortar joints anyway.  I then used chalk and rubbed it on with my thumb.  You can see the section at the top of the photograph needed more chalk wiped off, but I had to get a new rag and left it for the next day.  They are now ready for Dullcoat.  I thought I had a can, but don't so, I have to buy some of that.  In the meantime, I got ahead of myself and started assembling double hung windows.  Duh, It would be easier to spray paint them before cutting them out.  So, I stopped that too.  There are two more panels of doors and windows, since you have to put pieces together for the double hung windows and panel doors.  We are supposed to get snow, sleet, and ice tonight and tomorrow morning, so the building is on hold until I can get out.  A slight fender bender would total my 18-year old Hyundai!    So, I plan to wait it out.

Looks like a nice building. Should be fun to detail inside and out.

Carolina Craftsman makes quality structures.

Mark, I don't know if you follow Sarah or have seen some of her posts from across the pond. She did some water pouring as well with rippling effects, those were pretty good too. I don't remember how long ago her post was. Maybe when I get home tonight I'll see if I can find them and pass it over to you.

@Bill Webb posted:

Looks like a nice building. Should be fun to detail inside and out.

Carolina Craftsman makes quality structures.

Hey Bill! Nice to see another familiar face over here. Hopefully you remember me from the other forum? How are you doing on your layout build?

Sorry Mark didn't mean to interrupt your thread.

Thank you, Bill, Dave, RJ!

Bill, This is the second Carolina Craftsman Kit I have.  The other is the Thomas, West Virginia Enginehouse.  They are great kits.  The main issue for me is that, I have not worked with laser cut siding as thin as Jeff uses.  This is no criticism, thin is prototypical.  The enginehouse is clapboard, so it isn't as easy to break as the brick laser cuts.  To get the proper mortar joints, they are cut very thin, making it an easy break point.  If I do another of his brick kits, I will put in lots of bracing on the back side BEFORE I sand the corners to 45 degree angles, instead of after as the instructions state.  I broke a few of the thin sections of brick between doors and the wall corners.  Fortunately, a smidgeon of Ailene's Tacky Glue and a flat surface makes them not noticeable now.

Dave, no I am not familiar with Sarah at all.  I would be glad to receive a link when you get the chance.  Thank you!

RJ, Never feel like you are interrupting a topic I am commenting on, especially one like this where I am the OP.  Some of the best learning has come from interruptions and side rabbit trails, whether here on the Forum or life in general.  I'm glad you have joined in!!!

Mark,

As always well thought out trial and error regarding the tunnel placement, and what the look will be leading up to it. As with most projects there can be a ripple effect (pun intended) to the surrounding area as far as looks, access, etc. I think you’ve come up with a solid plan.

As far as the mortar joints, I’ve always used joint compound with pretty good results. I think one thing that might help would be to let the joint compound dry and form a haze, sometimes overnight. And depending on how it comes off of the surface, I will use my thumb to clear off the bricks. If I find that the mortar is staying in the joints for the most part, I clean off the bricks with a lint free rag and a very light touch. On occasion I do need to reapply joint compound to a very small area here and there. I think your use of chalk was inspiring, another tool in the arsenal!
As always I’m enjoying your progress, well done, and I look forward to more.

Andy

RJ, good to see you here. Layout is going fine except for a minor knee replacement 2 weeks ago which is recovering amazingly well. It has given me time to catch up on documenting things on the computer in case gremlins sneak in.

We keep up with Mark’s thread. He is always doing something interesting and as Andy said, documents the trial and error process. We have a Carolina Craftsman kit to do and will remember the thin joint problem.

Thank you, Andy and Bill!

Andy, good pun on the ripple effect!!    I will have to say the only time I used joint compound for mortar joints was on plastic kits with molded windows and door frames.  I found it tedious to get the compound out of the corners where the frames met the bricks.  That was my only beef about it.  You do get nice results.  I may not be as patient as I used to be, but then again my hands didn't hurt when I did things like that years ago. 

I guess I do show a lot of trial and error.  Sometimes, I get suggestions of a different way of doing things, and sometimes I just decide what I did wasn't going to work out as well.  I find it is much more useful to see the the process, changes and all, when reading about others' modeling, than just seeing the final product. 

Mark, by showing the trial and error, you’re helping yourself through the process, and anyone else that reads your thread, myself included. 👍🏻

Andy

Hi Mark, I am sorry I haven't commented lately, and I have been taking care of some stuff around here! I told you about it,

Sure, looks like you have been busy and are doing some great work! I like that part of layout building, even though sometimes it can get overwhelming!

Keep up the outstanding work!

Thank you, Mike!!!  I know you were tied up with unexpected, but necessary projects.    I'm glad to see you back!! 

I finally got some dull coat to seal the walls.  I also have some off white to spray the window and door parts.  Now I need a day with no cold or wind to do the spraying.  The temperatures are projected to be warmer this week, but I won't be doing it yet. Tomorrow, I have to get some tests done on my back that will hopefully reveal what is pinching my right sciatic nerve.  It's always something!!