Not a good beginning for my DCS experience!

Guys,

E-Stop wil not work if the remote is tied up waiting for a response to a command that isn't forthcoming. You can prove this to yourself a couple of different ways:

• With the TIU powered off, try to select an engine from the Active Engine List. The remote will go out to lunch briefly while it attempts to do so. Immediately press E-Stop - nothing will happen. Eventually the remote will display the engine in the LCD, however, E-Stop will not be executed.
• Now, remove the engine from the track, turn on the TIU and press Startup. The remote will go out to lunch briefly while it attempts to find the engine and start it up. Press E-Stop - nothing will happen. Eventually the remote will display an error message and then it will display the engine. However, the E-Stop will not be executed.
• Now, just press E-Stop. The TIU's channels will all shut down (TIU will remain powered up) and the E-Stop message message to turn both the TIU and the remote off and then back on again will be displayed. Neither the TIU or the remote will be useable until their power has been turned off and then back o again.

All of the above was just done by me using DCS 4.20.

You can like it or not, however, that's the way it works.

Dave,

I don't think that's actually possible.  If the remote freed up when the TIU was powered down it's a coincidence.

I agree, that's just not possible.

Well, all I know is I could not power down the remote.  I held the button for 15-20 seconds and it just displayed the same thing and stared back at me.

A new data point.  I put two PS2 locomotives on track and got them running around the large loop at the same speed.  All that worked for about 20-30 minutes, and then as before, I lost control of all of them.  An odd sound artifact, the steamer started making popping noises while still chuffing along, I had heard that before, but wasn't sure what to make of it.  It only does this when the rig fails.

Another thing.  This time I was watching the remote closely, and several times the "out of range" did flash up briefly and then go away.  I'm only 8-10 feet from the TIU, and the only 900mhz thing anywhere in the house was a phone that I disconnected the power supply and took the batteries out of the handset, so it's not transmitting.

I haven't tried tethering the remote to the TIU, but if that's the only solution, that's simply not acceptable!  Again, no TMCC locomotives in the picture.

The power down feature does not work in all screens.  It does when engine screen or track screen are in use.  Maybe others--I don't remember

Well, all I know is I could not power down the remote.  I held the button for 15-20 seconds and it just displayed the same thing and stared back at me.

The power down feature does not work in all screens.  It does when engine screen or track screen are in use.  Maybe others--I don't remember

And the light bulb turns on!

The DCS Remote cannot be turned off from the ENG screen when displaying a TMCC engine!

Thanks, Robert!

Hi John,

I haven't tried tethering the remote to the TIU, but if that's the only solution, that's simply not acceptable!  Again, no TMCC locomotives in the picture.

It's just a diagnostic test to help identify the problem.  Next time the problem occursJUST DO IT!  If tethering the remote brings back control with one remote we know the problem is in that remote or the TIU.  If tether brings back control with each remote when they are tether we know the problem is in the TIU; most likely the transceiver board described earlier.

You've got a lot of good people trying to help you John, but we need you to help yourself a bit to get the job done.  The questions we ask and the suggestions we make are based on a lot of experience.  Use it.

John,

I was reading through other threads and came across this comment you posted...

Any chance this is the same engine that you've been running when control is lost?

No, there is no problem running older PS2 5volt engines with the DCS Remote Commander.  However, a dead battery in a 5 volt causes different problems than in a 3 volt engine.

No TMCC locomotives have ever been added to the remote, I don't have a TMCC/Legacy command base connected to the TIU at this time, or ever.

I don't think this has anything to do with it, I think the reset was done incorrectly.  I was able to reset the engine and run it with the DCS Remote Commander here.  I only had the guy's word that the engine was properly reset, he probably just made a mistake.

New data point.  I tethered the remote, and and ran the locomotives slowly around.  I still see 10's for the whole loop.  However, I saw both a briefly flashed "Check Track" and "Out Of Range" on the remote.  They stay for only a moment and then disappear.  Now, I'm sure the cord is in range, so that's clearly a problem!

Again, no TMCC locomotives on any powered track, they're all on sidings that are switched off.

However, a dead battery in a 5 volt causes different problems than in a 3 volt engine.

John,

I saw both a briefly flashed "Check Track" and "Out Of Range" on the remote

Not to worry, that's not at all unusual.

It was most likely while going over a switch track or a spot of dirty track, or due to a bit of electronic noise, or some other such thing that resulted in a momentary loss of communication between the TIU and the engine.

John,

The only way you're going to get a satisfactory test is to run the engines without the remotes tethered until communications fail.  Once they fail, immediately tether one of the remotes and see if you get control back.  If you do, unplug the first remote and plug in the second.  If both remotes regain control when tethered the problem is almost certainly the transceiver board in the TIU.

I ran tethered for about an hour and it ran fine.  So, I unhooked it and ran for another hour, and it still runs fine.  I'm at a total loss at this point!

I know it's not fixed, since nothing was done to fix it.

While that may answer Mark's question, I can't see that it has any bearing on my issues.  My locomotives have not required such action, they're there when I fire up the remote as always.

I think it's official, the TIU is bad.   I finally saw an error I've never seen before, TIU ERROR flashed up several times.  Obviously, this thing has to go back to MTU.

I tried the suggestion of connecting the cord to the remote when the system stopped responding, no response.  I then tried the other remote, wired and wireless, no response.

One other odd thing that also seems to suggest something in the TIU.  One of the locomotives sound had popping and static as it ran around out of control, but the other one sounded fine.  The one that had the sound issues happened to be the last one selected, might be significant, might not.

 I've seen the message "TIU Error" before. it did not mean the tiu was broke. I believe it was a problem moving the engine address.

Well, since it's become very obvious that my TIU is broken, I'm assuming that's what it is.  Unless you MTU guys actually live with the crap I've described in this thread, this thing is toast!  I need a control system that runs for more than 20-30 minutes before it craps out totally. 

The only way this comes back when it goes to lunch is a power cycle.  Of course, that's after the crash when I find that I've lost control of all the trains and I am not close enough to the real power plug to kill it.

John, is the popping and static you hear similar to what you hear when you do a track signal test?

I doubt this has anything to do with your problem, but when I do a track signal test I sometimes have to reset the locomotive to restore sounds.

You might try factory resets of your engines and see if that helps anything.

GGG, did you read my previous post(s)?  I connected the tether after I lost control, and even tried the other remote, wired and wireless.  Once the TIU goes to LALA Land, it's all over, there is no recovery other than a power cycle of the TIU.

The popping is not like a track test, the sounds are still there, but the locomotive has that racket in addition.  Note that the sounds were fine on both all the time the TIU was working properly, they only go to lunch when the TIU craps out.  That can't be a coincidence.   Both locomotives have been factory reset and re-added a couple of times.

I can't see any way this isn't simply a bad TIU.

Crap you call DCS?  Let me tell you about Lionel's mechanical e-units in their first 20 years. Or the variety of steam locos available until Weaver, Williams, & MTH gave them some competition--mostly all variations of a 6-drivered Prairie. Or the quality (ugh!) of Lionel pre- & post-war transformer circuit breakers.

I wanted to make sure I had exhausted all the possibilities of me being stupid before calling MTH.  Of course, I'm sure I have to wait for Tuesday at this point...

John, what's happening to you is about as common as my ERR commander speed control that won't work in reverse.  Not really very common but annoying as all ****.  I've spent several hours total working on that and on my third unit.  I got the latest one the other day.  Will try again.

On the bright side, I haven't had DCS issues in months.

Mike

John, I was thinking that if this was a 5 volt engine and it was momentarily loosing power (momentary short on a switch, bad section of track, etc.) it could be loosing it's ID#, which would cause you to loose control of the engine.

A "TIU ERROR" message doesn't mean that the TIU is bad.  It just means that an error has occurred in the communications between the remote and TIU other than getting out of radio range.  It will pop up on occasion when moving between tethered and wireless operation.

I tried the suggestion of connecting the cord to the remote when the system stopped responding, no response.  I then tried the other remote, wired and wireless, no response.

Well, since it's become very obvious that my TIU is broken, I'm assuming that's what it is.

OK.  Good info, thank you.  That means the problem likely is not the radio communications between the TIU and remote.  However, it does not necessarily mean the TIU is bad.  You're jumping to conclusions that you don't have enough evidence to support.  The TIU could be bad, but we need more info.

One other odd thing that also seems to suggest something in the TIU.  One of the locomotives sound had popping and static as it ran around out of control, but the other one sounded fine.  The one that had the sound issues happened to be the last one selected, might be significant, might not.

This could be an important piece of info.  However, unlike your assumption, it might actually indicate that nothing is wrong with the TIU at all.  In the upper right of the remote is a button labeled "MIC."  This is a microphone button that gives you access to the Proto-Dispatch feature.  When the button is depressed it sends a command to the engine on the screen to stop playing it's normal sounds and engage an artificial radio squeltch noise (the popping) and background static.  The remote then starts to stream audio from it's built in microphone to the TIU, which relays it to the engine.  The sound and static keep playing until the "MIC" button is released.  When released the remote sends a new command that tells the engine to turn it's normal sounds back on.  If for some reason the engine misses the command to turn the normal sounds back on the static will keep playing.

Try deliberately pressing (and holding) the "MIC" button and see if you hear the same kind of static.  Report back your findings.

Unless you MTU guys actually live with the crap I've described in this thread, this thing is toast!  I need a control system that runs for more than 20-30 minutes before it craps out totally.

We don't.  You have a problem.  We're trying to help you fix it.

John,

Be aware that when you depress and hold the Mic button, the remote will become completely non-repsonsive.

Further, this will also happen, occasionally, when the button is depressed and released. The Mic can get "hung up" and needs to be pressed and released agin in order for the remote to be able to issue commands once again.

Coincidentally, the above matches your reported symptoms.

When this occurs,"DISPATCH" will appear in the remote's LCD screen.

When the unit is running normally, the mic does what it's supposed to do, I don't get the sound I was getting there.  It was just a random popping and crackling sound from the locomotive that only starts after control of everything is gone.  I did manage to power down the remote by just holding the button until apparently something timed out and it saw the power down request.  However, powering it back up, or trying the other one didn't have any positive effect.

Remember, both locomotives lose control.  If it was just the locomotive, I'd expect the other one to maintain control.  I tried yet another engine last time, it wasn't the same two I was testing with previously, that didn't alter the outcome.  It happens with one or two, and with or without one or more TMCC locomotives also on the track.

The fact that I totally lose control and nothing short of a power cycle brings it back makes me think it's unlikely one of the the PS/2 engines causing all the problems.  Even if the sound on one had a problem, how would that kill the whole system?  I sure hope that's not the way it works.

I appreciate the fact that you're trying to help, but I don't think I'm leaping to conclusions at this point.  Too much evidence has piled up pointing to the TIU and not the engines or other stuff.  I even tried a different power brick, just in case.

I've about reached the end of my patience with this thing.  Short of opening it up to see if something obvious is loose, I don't know what other things to try.  I'm loath to open it and risk voiding the warranty, I have no idea how MTH looks on stuff like that.

I never saw the word Dispatch, and this failure occurs with both remotes.  I'm 100% sure I'm not pushing the mike button, and the chance that both remotes have a bad mike button is pretty remote.

Barry, the full word "dispatch" or merely an "M"?

Robert,

Barry, the full word "dispatch" or merely an "M"?

It's "DISPATCH" for the Mic button, it's an "M" for the external microphone.

Is that mentioned in THE book?

Hi John,

My 2 cents.  What TIU rev is this;  Rev L which has improved signal generators etc?  If older TIU did you install the "magic lights"? 

Not knowing your track layout configuration, is your track wired per Barry's recommended sugestions of so many track pieces per power block, feed lines attach approximately at block mid-point, and all wiring bought back to a central spot?

Did you buy TIU from a local train store that you could swap out TIUs to see which way the problem lies?  Know anyone in your area who is DCS operator you could trade TIUs to see if problem pops up on his/her layout or vice-versa, even if a bit of a drive?

I definetly can tell from your posts, you are frustrated.

I made sure that I bought the Rev. L version.  I don't have anyone close (that I know of) that I can test with.  The layout right now is just two loops like a figure 8 with one larger loop and some sidings that have power switched off.  The There are a couple of power drops, one in the middle and one at the other side of the loops.  A signal strength pass (when it's working) gives me all 10's and once in a while I'll see a 9.

The thing here is the TIU is totally locking up and unresponsive, I don't know how that can be a track configuration issue, the thing goes out to lunch and simply stops doing anything.  When that happens there is no recovery short of a power cycle.

I'm going to see if I can come up with someone that is close that I could take this over and test.

I'm resigned to the fact that this has to go back to MTH, but from what I hear, that will take about a year and a day to get resolved.

Nope!

I re-read all postings to this thread and don't see that you tried channels 3 and 4 to confirm the TIU locks every channel up or just 1 or 2.

 Nothing I want to brag about but my remote used to lock up all the time. Trouble was there were several problems going on that made it difficult to detect. The batteries would actually not make contact and that alone drove me insane. I had to lign the compartment door with foam and a bussiness card to hold them in. I also added an external antenna, that's another story.

 The system was also locking up from confused signal responses until I ripped everything apart and started from scratch. So I know what you're going thru. The battery door problem sometimes would cause a dead screen but also just caused a frozen screen too! I also added foam under the thumbwheel for a firmer response.

 I really hope MTH makes a new improved remote for reliability. Having to modify that heavily was not expected. Now, my system is a lot more robust. When ever I add something new, I dread the error messages and over react. I just added another tiu and found the process overly difficult. Now she's up and running and I probably am gun shy again. I haven't bought a new remote yet.

 It's a complex system that when set up correctly out performs anything else I've tried. It's my 4th system. I run a lot of engines in a train at once. When I get TMCC figured out so I don't need to hold my hand over an engine, I'm sure I'll love that one as well. Looking back now, it seemed no big deal. 

John,

Au contraire!

Page 163 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition clearly states the following:

All DCS Remotes Lose Control of All Engines

If a PS2 engine is selected in the DCS Remote's Engine Control Screen and the Mic button on that DCS Remote is pressed to activate the DCS Remote's built-in microphone, all DCS Remotes will become unable to issue commands to any PS2 engines. This is due to an undocumented "feature" that is present in all releases of DCS.

 

Once the built-in microphone in the DCS Remote is turned off, normal operation of all DCS Remotes is restored.

Additional information regarding use of the Mic button and the external microphone is stated on pages 15, 27, 33, and other pages.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

I did manage to power down the remote by just holding the button until apparently something timed out and it saw the power down request

That's how the remotes power down..you have to press and hold the power button down until the remote shuts down and the screen says saving data...just giving the power button a quick tap will only advance the soft key menu. FWIW the mic button is just below the power button.

Well, you shouldn't have to hold the power button for a minute or more!   I realize you have to hold it a few seconds, but that's absurd!

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

Originally Posted by RJR:

Is that mentioned in THE book?

Nope!

John,

 

Au contraire!

 

Page 163 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition clearly states the following:

All DCS Remotes Lose Control of All Engines

If a PS2 engine is selected in the DCS Remote's Engine Control Screen and the Mic button on that DCS Remote is pressed to activate the DCS Remote's built-in microphone, all DCS Remotes will become unable to issue commands to any PS2 engines. This is due to an undocumented "feature" that is present in all releases of DCS.

 

Once the built-in microphone in the DCS Remote is turned off, normal operation of all DCS Remotes is restored.

Additional information regarding use of the Mic button and the external microphone is stated on pages 15, 27, 33, and other pages.

 

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

 

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/60-1279

 

We were specifically talking about the indications, in this case the word DISPATCH in the display.

I haven't tried the other channels Sam.  If it won't work on channel 1 or 2, I'm really not interested in having half a TIU since I bought a new unit that should have four channels!   I really didn't see the point of exhaustively testing each channel, they all should work.