Not a good beginning for my DCS experience!

I threw caution to the winds and opened up the TIU case.  Nothing seems out of order.  I reseated the receiver board just in case.

Currently running another test...

mikeporterinmd:  I know the battery does not feed the motor.  But one of the nice features of DCS is that hitting a momentary dead spot in the track won't trigger the reversing unit.  For example, I have a Weaver PS2 SD40-2 whose rollers are spaced so that one hits an uncoupling magnet as the other hits the gap in a switch.  There is a very obvious shut off of the lights until its momentum carries it past the spot.  If it doesn't coast through, like when going dead slow, a quick push gets it going again without a shutdown or reverse.

Barry: An Acrobatic scan of THE book failed to disclose any mention of the word "Dispatch" appearing on the screen.

I didn't realize until I read it above that if a grandchild pushes the MIC button, he/she kills all controls.

Gunrunner, you sure know how to get a long thread started.

Robert,

An Acrobatic scan of THE book failed to disclose any mention of the word "Dispatch" appearing on the screen

Sigh! Yes, a glaring oversight on my part.

The important thing, however, is the mention on page 163 that pressing the Mic button does, indeed, lock up the entire system.

Hi all,

OK, several things to touch on here.  First, Barry is correct that "DISPATCH" should appear on the screen when the "MIC" button is pressed.  However, if the remote messages are turned off it might not.  I don't have a remote and TIU with me to test at the moment, but Barry or someone else might be able to confirm or deny that idea.  John, if you have the remote messages turned off...

MENU / SYSTEM / REMOTE SETUP / REMOTE MESSAGES

I would suggest turning them on at least until you're up and running properly.  The messages can provide important clues towards defining the problem.

When the unit is running normally, the mic does what it's supposed to do, I don't get the sound I was getting there.  It was just a random popping and crackling sound from the locomotive that only starts after control of everything is gone.

OK.

Part of the problem we're having John is that what you are describing is EXTREMELY odd.  In ten years of working with every generation of DCS hardware and software I have never seen a TIU or even a single TIU channel that would intermittently fail.  I've seen several TIU's that have a channel totally fail for one reason or another or even the entire TIU.  However, they never come back to life with a power cycle.  The questions you're getting are quite leading because we're trying to see if there's some other cause that's inducing this behavior.  What's particularly odd is your description of the sound you're getting out of the engines when you loose control.  Here's a few more questions about that.

Does the sound come from only one engine at a time? (could be a different engine each time)

If so, is it always the engine last addressed by a remote?

Do you get this noise every time you loose control or only sometimes?

Do the sounds return to normal immediately after cycling power?

I'd be curious to do the following test.  Setup the TIU with track power going through Fixed Channel 2.  Jumper over to Fixed 1 to power the TIU.  When you loose control remove the jumper to Fixed 1.  That will keep power applied to the track but kill power to the TIU.  If you get the static noise on an engine, does it return to normal as soon as the jumper to Fixed 1 is removed?  If not, does the sound return to normal when the jumper and TIU power is restored?  If not, remove the wires from Fixed 2 Output.  That will keep power applied to the TIU, but kill track power.  Does the sound then return to normal?

The fact that I totally lose control and nothing short of a power cycle brings it back makes me think it's unlikely one of the the PS/2 engines causing all the problems.  Even if the sound on one had a problem, how would that kill the whole system?

Agreed.  That is extremely unlikely.  I have never seen a PS2 or PS3 engine cause interference with a TIU. 

I appreciate the fact that you're trying to help, but I don't think I'm leaping to conclusions at this point.  Too much evidence has piled up pointing to the TIU and not the engines or other stuff.  I even tried a different power brick, just in case.

The first thing I always recommend to someone getting into DCS for the first time is to set up a simple loop of track and play.  That gives you the opportunity to see how DCS should operate before putting it on your layout.  Unfortunately, John, you haven't had the opportunity to see how it should work.  There are a lot of subtle behaviors that don't mean anything to a newbie, but give a lot of clues to people who have been running DCS a while.  For example, you mentioned that you eventually got a remote to turn off after holding the power button for more than 1 minute.  No, it's not supposed to take that long.  What that tells us is that the remote is trying to issue a command (probably a locomotive command) and that command is not getting through.  If remote messages are turned on you'll see "Check Track" if the TIU is loosing communications with the engine (and knows it) and/or "Out of RF Range" if the remote is loosing communications with the TIU.  I'm by no means suggesting you're not a smart guy, you just don't have the experience needed to do methodical diagnostics on DCS.

 Posts like this REALLY frustrate me, John.  Yes, all the channels should work and you shouldn't have to go through what you are.  However, no one here is getting paid to answer your posts.  If all you want to do is throw your frustration back at the people who try to help you.... GO POUND SAND!

The point of "exhaustively testing each channel" is to eliminate another diagnostic variable.  There are real hardware differences between the fixed and variable channels.  It's not very likely that the behavior will be different (none of this behavior is likely) but it's not a bad suggestion to try at least one of the variable channels.

The fact that cycling power on the TIU has thus far restored operations suggests to that this might be a software issue or a hardware issue that is confusing the software.  Check the TIU's software revision. (should be 4.20)

MENU / SYSTEM / TIU SETUP / TIU VERSION

The first batch of Rev L TIU's shipped with a firmware bug that prevented AIU's from functioning properly.  It didn't have any impact on locomotive operations, but it couldn't hurt to reload the 4.20 software.

The other thing that comes to mind is how the TIU is placed into programming mode.  An 1/8th inch stereo cable is used to jumper between the ProtoCast and ProtoDispatch ports.  Any chance you've plugged a mic or audio source into either port?

"Sigh! Yes, a glaring oversight on my part"

Everyone's entitled to one minor glitch. In your book, it took years to find it.  Next time, please don't make it such a small thing, so we can find it easier.  

Frankly, I wasn't aware of the MIC killing control of all locos.  Now if I can just eliminate the button so the grandkids don't lock up the system (and slobber the remote).

Sounds like a plan, I'll be back with the results, probably tomorrow.

Thanks, let's see if I can make some progress.

John

Did you actually read the book instead of just getting the book?

Stick with it.  With 2 systems your options open up.

A transformer and two wires to the track. Works every time...

Why don;t you just send  the tiu to mth with these descriptions.  I will admit the dcs system is more problem prone than tmcc.  I have both and my main problem with dcs is loosing control of an engine on sidings that tmcc engines are on.  I just have one siding for tmcc and one for dcs and problem done,  I also make sure that I only have one system on at a time.  This takes two power supplies to main, one for the tiu and one for the legacy base.  This way when running tmcc the tiu is not powered and I unplug the power plug to legacy base when running dcs.  Not ideal, but, hey it works.

Also a dcs signal seems to have have a major problem getting through my gargraves switches  and no problem with tmcc.  Also I have a spst center rail on off for the sidings so no power is to them when not wanted.

I have the new tiu also, so removed all my light bulbs.

The system is a computer and if it screwed up as often as my computer locks up on the internet, I would go back to analog running.

You apparently do not have a ground plane issue.  DCS works better for me than TMCC.  But, I strongly suspect the person who wired this room did not get the wiring inspected and does not understand what the bare wire is for.  I need to check into the outlets.  I know the light switches are wrong, but there is no exposed metal, and no easy way to fix it, either.

Mike

I finally ran a separate 14 gauge wire from the ground wire on the water heater that goes to the main box.  I connected it to a cheater 3 wire to 2 wire groung tab which then goes to a 3 wire extension which my legacy power supply is connected and problem eliminated.  No ground plane issures as my over head layout is wired for dcs only and the tmcc engine can go under while the dcs engine is running above with no problem.  I do have parallel track on tmcc and the outside rails are all interconnected by outside rail  on layout to outside rail of other.  Power transformers are all interconnected u terminals in series.  I made sure all power supplies are in phase before starting any running.

Yeah, I need to do something.  First step is to plug in the circuit tester and see what's in there, and then open up the outlet if need be.  Hopefully, if the bare wire isn't connected, they didn't cut it off too far back.

Mike

Is the house new enough to have 3 wire system.  Especailly if the house is older (1953) LIKE mine, the new outlets have grounded outlets but no seperate 3 ground wire.  My layout is in the basement so no problem to run the seperate ground wire.

Just reading this three page thread out of idle curiosity gave me a migraine.

A real cliff hanger.

All this to operate a toy train? Incredible.

The house most certainly is 3 wire.  This room was redone by the previous owner and I noticed that that bare wires in the light switch box had been cut and were not attached to the switches.  He cut the bare wire very far back, so there is no easy way to fix this.

The only legitimate way might be to install a closed box up higher on the wall, find the existing cable and attach longer cable between the new closed box and the switch box.

Mike

Computer controlled "toy" trains, you mean :-)

Mike

My variation on this included a couple of wires from the Z-4000 transformer to a TIU; a couple of wires from the TIU to the track, and batteries installed in the Remote.  I have some 20+ locomotives programmed into the remote, with about five active on the layout at any one time.  All have worked just fine. 

Next up will be the Legacy system so I can enjoy the best of both worlds.

Those who have problems with any command control system have my sympathies, but I guess the solution I would recommend is to start out with something simple--meaning an oval or a simple track plan--and to explore the features of the system before launching into something more complex.  Both DCS and Legacy are easy to operate, and certainly far easier to learn and use than DCC (at least in my experience).

the TIU is powered by a 135W PowerHouse brick

(from John's initial post).

From what I can tell, this brick is not in the list of recommended AC power supplies that's in the owner's manual.  Could this be the problem?

Rich wrote:

A transformer and two wires to the track.

Same here.  The only problems I had were reading some of the passages in the manual and in Barrys book and either not understanding them or reading too much into them, I was actually thinking too much (not something I usually do) instead of taking what I was reading literally.

John,  Sometimes we get so wrapped up trying to fix and item vice changing it out.

Is there a member near you, or a LHS that could lend you a known TIU that works.  Swap it in and see if it fixes your issue.

If the TIU is bad it is going back to MTH anyway.  While it may be nice to figure out what the fault is, we may never know.   Seems like we passed the point of diminishing returns:-)  G

Or even a LUG meeting

Yes, let's get the terms right.

I thought the same thing, so I swapped it out for the PowerHouse 180, just to eliminate that as an issue.  However, since they list the PW Celebration ZW, and it came with 135W bricks, I doubt this is a problem.  I notice they list all sorts of old PW transformers, so it's pretty hard to imagine that one being a pure transformer would be an issue.  I switched to the 180, I just figured I'd opt for the better protection of the 180 fast acting circuit breaker anyway. 

One question.  I couldn't get the serial port to work on the TIU, the program could never find it.  However, the USB worked and the program found it.  The same port and adapter works for the Legacy command base, is there some special requirements for the TIU?

John,

Now that the TIU and remote have been identified as not part of the problem, areas to consider are reduced quite a bit. What's left is:

• The layout wiring - one drop per block, insulated blocks, proper distribution to blocks, etc.
• The layout's tracks - isolated center rails, etc.
• The PS2 engines (less likely)
• My personal favorite, "Operator error"

The book will help with the first three, particularly pages 54-69 and 159-170.

Good hunting!

OK, I'm back to the original issue, that reversed wire during the debugging process seems to have send me off in the weeds, but I think I'm back.

Yes, we have verified that starting out, all the channels work, and the remote to TIU communications work.

I still have the original issue.  I ran this morning for an hour before it occurred.  I can verify that it is the last selected locomotive that has the popping audio, I had the other one selected this time and that's the one that started.  The bell also started ringing on the other one without any help.  At this point, I have lost control, and I waited at least 5 minutes to see if it would ever come back, but it didn't. The remote display was the last engine accessed, it didn't change from before the failure.

I have a single track block at this point, and I'm running with just power in and track out on Fixed 1.  No insulated blocks. I've tried a single point connection to the center of the loop, and also an extra drop at the other side of the loop, it's failed in an identical manner both ways.

Since I'm not doing anything but running two trains, I am having trouble seeing how I could be inducing operator error into the mix at this point.  Is there some magic incantation I should be saying before each operating session?   The trains run for about an hour, and I periodically adjust the throttle, test the whistle to see if it's working, etc.  While I've been doing the test, I don't do anything fancy with the menus, just switch engines and tinker with the throttle and whistle/bell.

FWIW, this is the failure I started with  before I shot myself in the foot with the reversed track feed, and it's been a constant throughout my testing.

John,

A few questions:

• When you ran the previous set of tests using the test track, was the DCS Signal consistently "10"s?
• Was the remote locked up or were you able to enter commands that just didn't execute? If it wash' locked up, skip the next question.
• If the remote was truly frozen, is there any chance that you have a button stuck in the pressed position on the remote? Also, if it was frozen, what was in the display and what was the last thing you tried to do before it locked up?
• Were both of the engines that were running PS2?
• Were the bell and the "popping sound" both on the same engine?
• What was the power source for the TIU channel?
• How was the TIU itself being powered0?

Please try to reproduce your results with the TIU tethered tot he remote.

Well John I think you have paid more than your fair share of dues.

If I had to go through this kind of exorcism to get DCS running I think I would have shot myself. A hobby should be fun after all.

At this stage I would have the TIU boxed up and on its way to MTH for repair or replacement. Since you just bought it and its a rev L TIU, it will be in warranty.

Its truly unfortunate this has happened. Normally as you know, DCS works quite well.

I have been running DCS for nearly 3 years now with minor issues. The benefits far outweigh the minor issues IMO. There are many DCS users out there who would agree I think.

You seem like a patient and smart guy, but its time to bite the bullet.

Rod

Mike

I guess that reading this gave me a sort of odd admiration for the persistence and patience that this deeper sort of troubleshooting required for software\hardware issues that is admired and feared by yours truly. I bailed after PS1. Just reading Barry's troubleshooting questions had me thinking I was a late arriving member from the 19th Century. To be honest, my solution would have been the trashcan, but that's my shortcoming as far as patience with electronica.

I imagined myself in that situation, hence the migraine inasmuch as I have some sort of inbred resistance to the sort of detail as described I would have to master inasmuch I cannot often remember what password goes where in the internet world. From the outside as a conventional operator, my worst issue is a derailment, not that conventional is hassle free or "better." It was just a revelation as to the amount of troubleshooting there was taking place. I was somewhere between awe and fear. I am glad it came to a happy ending.

Bruce

Enough already send the dam thing in to mth.

Rod,

At this stage I would have the TIU boxed up and on its way to MTH for repair or replacement. Since you just bought it and its a rev L TIU, it will be in warranty.

I truly believe that may be premature. There are still a few things that need to be nailed down before throwing in the towel on this one. I've seen weirder stuff where the culprit wasn't the TIU.

• I checked the track signal before the run, and it was all 10's with an occasional 9 thrown in.  I spot checked with the other locomotive and it was also getting good readings, I didn't do the whole circuit with it, but I have in the past.  I have never seen any issue with track signal after I cleaned the whole track, that does help.
• The remote wasn't locked up, I tried to select the other engine and the screen changed, then it was unresponsive.  I was able to turn it off with by holding the button, so it was still seeing keystrokes. Before I turned it off, I also tried the E-STOP but it never stopped.  After a few of minutes waiting for the recovery, I killed power to the TIU.
• Both engines are PS2 engines.  I've had two different steamers on the tracks at various times, one is a 5V and one is a 3V model.
• The bell was on the steamer, the popping sound was on the diesel this time, as it was the last one selected.  That has been the pattern, the audio goes to lunch on the last one selected.
• I have a PowerHouse 180 feeding the FIXED 1 input directly, and the track connection is on FIXED 1 output.  No other stuff connected to the TIU.
• TIU is powered from the FIXED 1 input as there is no aux power connected.

 I'm very close to a call to MTH at this point, I am coming to the end of my rope.

John,

 I'm very close to a call to MTH at this point, I am coming to the end of my rope.

There are only three things I'd ask you to do and, if we don't get any additional data points, calling MTH would probably be in order.

First, please try to reproduce the problem you just experienced with the remote tethered to the TIU.

If that still causes failures, it would be helpful if you could replace the Powerhouse brick with some other power supply, and then again try to reproduce the problem with the remote tethered to the TIU.

Lastly, if the above two tests still come up bad, it would be good if you could replace the engines with two other DCS engines. I've seen more than one instance of a loss of control such as you're seeing due to an engine issue. It's rare, however, I've experienced it personally on two occasions and heard from others regarding two more.

Thanks!

The problem happens with either the 135W or 180W PowerHouse.  I've actually slapped a scope on them and they are outputting a pure sine wave under load, I can't begin to imagine that both of these are bad.  The only other transformers I have are all PW transformers, I like having better circuit breakers of the more modern transformers.

This just happened with the remote tethered to the TIU as well.  I only have three PS2 locomotives, and I've had the failure with different combinations of them on the tracks.  I did consider that might be the issue.  It's also failed with only one running, and again with only one of the others running.

So, to recap, I've tried two different transformers, and the failure happens with either 1 or two locomotives on the track.  I confess that I have not run all three individually to see if all three fail, but since two fail alone in an identical manner, I think this is probably not going to tell me much.

I'd love to find a local DCS user and test the TIU in a totally different environment.

TA DA, and only after a 4 page blog and 2 topics:-)  Seriously, putting a different TIU in your layout halfs your problem.  Either it is the TIU or something about your layout/engine combination.  There has to be someone near you in SE PA.  G

I have to be honest.  To see gunrunnerjohn, who I would consider one of the leading 'techies' on this forum, having this much trouble setting up a DCS system, is a little alarming.  Good luck brother, I'm sure there is a solution somewhere. Makes me love my regular TMCC and pullmor driven Geeps all the more.

Well, I talked to MTH, and they said after what I said that it seems that it's probably a problem with the TIU, which I kinda' knew.   I'm sending it back, hopefully I'll get a working one in return!

Hopefully, these are a high priority, since you're not likely to buy new DCS locomotives if you don't have a control system!

Sometimes being a techie is a problem in itself.  You so much want to know why or solve it yourself.  Everyone has gotten a defective product at one time or another.  If this was regular joe, he/she would have gone back to a LHS exchanged it and been up and running in a few minutes.   I spent a few hours tracing an old board worth about $40 on Sunday.  It is an affliction:-)  G 

I spent 2 1/2 days this weekend putting coil couplers in engines that BoxcarBill charges $ 25 a pair to install.  Is there a cure for this affliction?

I think what you've seen here is a very atypical example.  I suspect that the vast majority of DCS buyers have no real problem in hooking things up and operating smoothly from the get-go--especially nothing even approaching what you've been reading about in this thread.  I know I sure didn't have any real problems--still don't--and it didn't take a multiple-page thread, a DVD, a book, or much of anything else to do it, aside from the owners manual that came with the set.

I fully expect that Lionel's Legacy system, once I buy it, will be equally as easy to set up and operate. 

Even with an electronics background (albeit from back in the 70s of last century), I have found that a person HAS to ask the question correctly in order to get the answer they're looking for.

I read Barry's book and there's parts in there that, due to my little bit of knowledge, caused me more grief because I was thinking one thing while reading another.  I found that if you take what you read at face value (and not try to insert anything else) that it makes things go smoother.  It wasn't the books fault, it was my fault for "assuming" something that wasn't so.  We all know what happens when you "assume".