Pennsylvania R.R. Let's see them!

Railfaning near the refinery.

A few new additions for me.  A Sunnyside brass N5c cabin import made in Japan by Endo.

On the other end of the spectrum a PS-1 Railking SW9 I picked up at a local TCA auction yesterday for $50.

Finally, an MTH PS-2 hopper from the same auction.

Digging through the vaults I found this old post of mine from October 2016.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/lio...53#67314622782293153

I had a Lionel GP38 that was part of a Pennsylvania RR  RTR LionChief Set that was #2382 in its original PRR Brunswick Green shown here. I commissioned Jimbo at Ready to Roll Trains in Miami to repaint it to a Florida East Coast #507 for me.

I finally received my VisionLine Pennsylvania Caboose, its sounds are awesome. Happy Railroading Everyone

Here’s a pair of Pennsy “noise makers”…

A VisionLine set of PRR stock cars (one car has sheep sounds 🐑).

And a Pennsy REA horse transportation car - thoroughbreds only… no nags allowed!!!

My Williams set that I added seats with passengers and LEDs

Well here is an "oldie" for you.  the Lionel #800 PRR boxcar from 1915-1926 paired with the Lionel #802 cattle car from the same period.

Best Wishes

Don

You'll have to take my word for it but the GG1 and caboose are in Pennsy livery!

Lionel Pennsy GP-7 coming out of the Allegheny Mountain side after a very heavy snowstorm 

One of my favorite diesel switchers for switching operations on my layout is this MTH PS2 Pennsy VO1000? hauling Lionel postwar operating coal dump cars and caboose through town:

Well just for a change, switching to steam, here is the Lionel (MPC) 2-4-2 PRR steamer from 1972, 1974u, and 1975.

Best wishes on a cold, rainy, Tuesday in central Texas

Don

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

One of my favorite diesel switchers for switching operations on my layout is this MTH PS2 Pennsy VO1000? hauling Lionel postwar operating coal dump cars and caboose through town:

Arnold nice diesel Mark

@Don McErlean posted:

Well just for a change, switching to steam, here is the Lionel (MPC) 2-4-2 PRR steamer from 1972, 1974u, and 1975.

Best wishes on a cold, rainy, Tuesday in central Texas

Don

Don by chance does that have a smoke unit?

@Sitka - IAW the data I have the #8203 PRR DOES HAVE a smoke unit.  However I can't say I have ever tried it, so I am basing this response entirely on the written data on the engine.

All the Best Sitka

Don

@Sitka posted:

Lionel Pennsy GP-7 coming out of the Allegheny Mountain side after a very heavy snowstorm

Cool looking pictures, the snow looks very realistic, nicely done.

Gene

@Don McErlean posted:

@Sitka - IAW the data I have the #8203 PRR DOES HAVE a smoke unit.  However I can't say I have ever tried it, so I am basing this response entirely on the written data on the engine.

All the Best Sitka

Don

As I recall, this locomotive also came with "The Mighty Sound of S.....omething" I can't write on this forum.  Oops!  I meant steam!

@Genemed posted:

Cool looking pictures, the snow looks very realistic, nicely done.

Gene

Gene that's my back deck after a month and a half of cleaning roofs. And though might as well take advantage of my snow mountains LOL. I have over 4ft on the ground. Mark

@Sitka posted:

Gene that's my back deck after a month and a half of cleaning roofs. And thank might as well take advantage of my snow mountains LOL. I have over 4ft on the ground. Mark

Wow, no wonder it looks so good. Either way, excellent idea.

Gene

The favorite on my roster.  

A few additions to the heavyweight sleeper roster with two 12-1s and an 8-1-2.  Here is 12-1 Pullman "Haysville". 

@GG1 4877 posted:

A few additions to the heavyweight sleeper roster with two 12-1s and an 8-1-2.  Here is 12-1 Pullman "Haysville".

Help this poor city boy out. Please explain your nomenclature.

17/64ths O scale Blumm PRR M1. I have it posed with a Mi- loco K5 tender. I think Blumm made these about 1949-50.

@pennsyfan posted:

Help this poor city boy out. Please explain your nomenclature.

Looking at my post, I sure threw a lot of gobbledygook out there in numbers!

Sleepers were commonly classified by the number of berths they had.  Pullman cars for the most part had sections, drawing rooms, and compartments.

12-1 Pullmans had 12 sections and 1 drawing room.  The sections were paired seats facing each other during the day that turned into a bed at night.  The only privacy was a curtain and partitions on each side of the section.  The drawing room was a much more spacious and private accommodation.  The most common version was Pullman Plan 3410.  These were the economy sleepers of the day.

8-1-2 Pullmans had 8 sections, 1 drawing room, and 2 compartments.  These were Pullman Plan 3979.  A bit of a more upscale set of accommodations, but still in the budget realm.

Sections in sleepers went out of favor in the late 1940's and the California Zephyr Budd 16 section sleepers of 1948 were the last built.  They all were converted to coaches by the mid 1960's.  Heavyweight Pullman's still operated though in some cases in the US up until the late 1960's and in Mexico they ran until the end of passenger operations in 1997.  On the PRR specifically, the sectional sleepers ended up as dormitory cars for crew or more commonly MOW cars prior to PC.

By the 1950's the 10-6 sleeper became the most common configuration used by the railroads.  These were 10 compartments and 6 double bedroom cars.  The concept of private space has certainly changed over the years.

I found these floor plans on a blog for modeling the Southern Pacific.  Again the 12-1 and 8-1-2 were very common plans which is why we see so many models of them in O, HO, and N.

Pullman 12-1 and 8-1-2 Floor Plans

@GG1 4877 posted:

Looking at my post, I sure threw a lot of gobbledygook out there in numbers!

Sleepers were commonly classified by the number of berths they had.  Pullman cars for the most part had sections, drawing rooms, and compartments.

12-1 Pullmans had 12 sections and 1 drawing room.  The sections were paired seats facing each other during the day that turned into a bed at night.  The only privacy was a curtain and partitions on each side of the section.  The drawing room was a much more spacious and private accommodation.  The most common version was Pullman Plan 3410.  These were the economy sleepers of the day.

8-1-2 Pullmans had 8 sections, 1 drawing room, and 2 compartments.  These were Pullman Plan 3979.  A bit of a more upscale set of accommodations, but still in the budget realm.

Sections in sleepers went out of favor in the late 1940's and the California Zephyr Budd 16 section sleepers of 1948 were the last built.  They all were converted to coaches by the mid 1960's.  Heavyweight Pullman's still operated though in some cases in the US up until the late 1960's and in Mexico they ran until the end of passenger operations in 1997.  On the PRR specifically, the sectional sleepers ended up as dormitory cars for crew or more commonly MOW cars prior to PC.

By the 1950's the 10-6 sleeper became the most common configuration used by the railroads.  These were 10 compartments and 6 double bedroom cars.  The concept of private space has certainly changed over the years.

I found these floor plans on a blog for modeling the Southern Pacific.  Again the 12-1 and 8-1-2 were very common plans which is why we see so many models of them in O, HO, and N.

Pullman 12-1 and 8-1-2 Floor Plans

Thanks Jonathan. Do the window configurations tell the difference? Your commends about the seats turning into a bed reminded me of a trip I took in  1990. I took a sleeper from New York to Chicago and it was a single chair that turned into a bed at night when it folded down. There was no room to stand. If I recall the bed was right at the edge of the compartment. You had to fold it up to use the sink etc.  The really interesting part was a  year later I was on another business trip and my wife and I went to the Sacramento Museum. A car of that type was in the museum; and I was laughing and the attendant asked why  are you laughing? I said I just rode in this car about a year ago and now it's a museum piece.

@GG1 4877 posted:

A few additions to the heavyweight sleeper roster with two 12-1s and an 8-1-2.  Here is 12-1 Pullman "Haysville".

Guessing this would be after the Pullman anti-trust case since "Pennsylvania" is the main lettering and "Pullman" the small lettering?

@Dennis Holler posted:

17/64ths O scale Blumm PRR M1. I have it posed with a Mi- loco K5 tender. I think Blumm made these about 1949-50.

Dennis those engines have some great details Great looking collection. Mark

@pennsyfan posted:

Thanks Jonathan. Do the window configurations tell the difference? Your commends about the seats turning into a bed reminded me of a trip I took in  1990. I took a sleeper from New York to Chicago and it was a single chair that turned into a bed at night when it folded down. There was no room to stand. If I recall the bed was right at the edge of the compartment. You had to fold it up to use the sink etc.  The really interesting part was a  year later I was on another business trip and my wife and I went to the Sacramento Museum. A car of that type was in the museum; and I was laughing and the attendant asked why  are you laughing? I said I just rode in this car about a year ago and now it's a museum piece.

The window configurations are different, but to be honest, I haven't looked too closely to remember what they actually are!  I have purchased a lot of GGD Pullmans on the secondary market in many road names.  Most have been 12-1s.  The 8-1-2 cars come up much less frequently.  Since these were largely done prior to my involvement with the company, I don't have any insight into production numbers to see if there were just less 8-1-2 cars produced or if people tend to hold on to them more than the 12-1 cars. 

As to your train ride, you likely took either the Broadway Limited or the Lakeshore Limited.  Both trains featured Slumbercoaches and 10-6 sleepers.  The Slumbercoach had two levels in the single berths.  This is one of my GGD ones for a 1990 period Broadway Limited.  Right name for the PRR, but wrong railroad!  PRR never rostered the Slumbercoach, but the NYC did along with a variation known as the Sleepercoach. 

Lionel did 21" 10-6 sleepers in Amtrak Phase III for this same era train, but I don't have a picture of mine.

@Prr7688 posted:

Guessing this would be after the Pullman anti-trust case since "Pennsylvania" is the main lettering and "Pullman" the small lettering?

Yes indeed!  This is the postwar paint scheme for PRR cars and post anti-trust era of Pullman.  Based on the gold leaf stripes this would also date the paint scheme prior to the 1952 change from gold leaf to "Dulux Gold" which was basically yellow.  It would have taken several years to paint all the fleet to the newer scheme though.  There are PRR people who know much more than I do who can make a good estimate of when the last of the gold leaf painted cars were repainted.

Saving for my next post, but you got me curious on the window pattern question.  Going to photograph some cars and be right back!

@Dennis Holler posted:

17/64ths O scale Blumm PRR M1. I have it posed with a Mi- loco K5 tender. I think Blumm made these about 1949-50.

Dennis,

I have been meaning to ask for some time.  Is that 4-4-2 Camelback an International?  I've been trying to see what an actual one looks like to compare to CNJ 592.  Thanks!

This has been a fun educational experience for me, and I hope for everyone else as well.  Comparision of the 12-1 Pullman plan to the 8-1-2 Pullman plan.

Clearbrook is a 12-1 plan and Black Oak is an 8-1-2.  I haven't found much rhyme or reason on 12-1 car names, while the 8-1-2 cars tended to be named in the "Oak" series.  My resource is this partial list of car names:  http://prr.railfan.net/passeng..._PRR_Sleeper_Car.htm 

I honestly don't know which is truly right and left as these cars aren't really directional on seating.  Outside of the number of sections shown on this side, there is a difference on the height of the windows in the men's restroom.  I didn't notice that until doing this comparison.

On the other side of the car, the window configurations are largely the same which makes sense as the men's and women's room were in the same location on both cars. 

To date, I have tracked down seven unique car names on the 12-1 cars and 2 unique car names on the 8-1-2.  I don't know how many names were done in each road name, but it is always exciting to see a new one show up. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

The window configurations are different, but to be honest, I haven't looked too closely to remember what they actually are!  I have purchased a lot of GGD Pullmans on the secondary market in many road names.  Most have been 12-1s.  The 8-1-2 cars come up much less frequently.  Since these were largely done prior to my involvement with the company, I don't have any insight into production numbers to see if there were just less 8-1-2 cars produced or if people tend to hold on to them more than the 12-1 cars.

As to your train ride, you likely took either the Broadway Limited or the Lakeshore Limited.  Both trains featured Slumbercoaches and 10-6 sleepers.  The Slumbercoach had two levels in the single berths.  This is one of my GGD ones for a 1990 period Broadway Limited.  Right name for the PRR, but wrong railroad!  PRR never rostered the Slumbercoach, but the NYC did along with a variation known as the Sleepercoach.

Lionel did 21" 10-6 sleepers in Amtrak Phase III for this same era train, but I don't have a picture of mine.

Yes indeed!  This is the postwar paint scheme for PRR cars and post anti-trust era of Pullman.  Based on the gold leaf stripes this would also date the paint scheme prior to the 1952 change from gold leaf to "Dulux Gold" which was basically yellow.  It would have taken several years to paint all the fleet to the newer scheme though.  There are PRR people who know much more than I do who can make a good estimate of when the last of the gold leaf painted cars were repainted.

Saving for my next post, but you got me curious on the window pattern question.  Going to photograph some cars and be right back!

You are correct it was the lake shore limited. I don't think it had AMTRAK markings. It wasn't a streamliner. I do remember siting on the train in Rensselaer waiting for the connecting train from Boston. At the time the news was reporting the start of action in the Gulf War.

@GG1 4877

"This has been a fun educational experience for me, and I hope for everyone else as well. "

Absolutely! Thank you for all you research and sharing.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Yes indeed!  This is the postwar paint scheme for PRR cars and post anti-trust era of Pullman.  Based on the gold leaf stripes this would also date the paint scheme prior to the 1952 change from gold leaf to "Dulux Gold" which was basically yellow.  It would have taken several years to paint all the fleet to the newer scheme though.  There are PRR people who know much more than I do who can make a good estimate of when the last of the gold leaf painted cars were repainted.

I wonder if GGD would consider doing a run of sleepers in the PRR pre- anti-trust with Pullman in big letters

@Prr7688 posted:

I wonder if GGD would consider doing a run of sleepers in the PRR pre- anti-trust with Pullman in big letters

That is a great question.  Let me have a conversation with Scott Mann on that topic.  It was done for NYC cars, no reason it can't be for PRR cars.  Anyone who models prewar PRR might be interested in this scheme.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Dennis,

I have been meaning to ask for some time.  Is that 4-4-2 Camelback an International?  I've been trying to see what an actual one looks like to compare to CNJ 592.  Thanks!

Yes it is IMP, and I think the only one I have ever seen. So is the 4-4-2 behind it. I think the PRR locos had slide valves and larger drivers. But I was tempted to still decorate it for PRR.

These aren’t worth posting cause they are a pile of shells at this point but these are four Alexander sand cast aluminum streamline PRR cars for the Fleet of Modernisim scheme. Eventually the plan is to build these as such and hand stripe the cars to run either with my Alex GG1 or K4. Rules prevent me posting a picture of what these will look like finished but we know of only a couple of sets that are accounted for so these seem to be pretty tough to find, but on the other hand, they are truely just 1930’s cottage model production at its best. No where near modern detail.

@GG1 4877 Jonathan- thanks for the explanation of the seating/ sleeping nomenclature.  Much appreciated

Don

I pulled out my Walthers car this afternoon too.  I did not build these kits, but wish I had the patience and skill to do so.  They came out of a 2-Rail estate from northern AZ and I was lucky enough to pick these up in 2011.  Today was the first day I've actually tracked down these names and I have more work to do.  These are exceptionally well done.

Observation "Washington Hall".  I have not found a prototype for this yet.

12-1 Pullman "Chief Fire Heart".  Another one I'm still tracking down.

8-1-2 Pullman "John Hancock".  My research says this should be a parlor car and not a sleeper.

Parlor "Betsy Ross".  Again, research states this should be something else.  In this case a 12-1 Pullman until 1951.

P70 "Hot Coach".  Hot because it is not air-conditioned.

PB70 baggage mail with olive trucks dating the paint scheme to pre WWII.

A pair of B70 baggage cars.

Lionel MPC era Pennsy GG I without any kind of sounds whatsoever but it still looks good and runs good too.  It is flanked by an early MTH Pennsy GG I in Brunswick  green and cat’s whiskers with an electronic horn.  It runs just as well as the Lionel,  Both engines are 40 to 45 years old.

Hey PRR fans, here is an early postwar box car for you.  This is the Lionel # 2454 PRR "Baby Ruth" box.  Made just after the war, issued by Lionel in 1946.  Many of us had these in our first train sets.  It came 2 ways, one with brown doors (as pictured) and the other with orange doors to match the sides.  The collectors value of the orange door (which I do NOT have) is about 2X that of the brown door (oh well) !  This guy is almost as old as I am, being new in 1946 when I was 2 years old.

Well there you have it my friends...an "old PRR stalwart" ... just like me

Best Wishes, temp here in Texas is finally decided to become winter, headed for the cellar tonite, 18 degrees !!

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

Hey PRR fans, here is an early postwar box car for you.  This is the Lionel # 2454 PRR "Baby Ruth" box.  Made just after the war, issued by Lionel in 1946.  Many of us had these in our first train sets.  It came 2 ways, one with brown doors (as pictured) and the other with orange doors to match the sides.  The collectors value of the orange door (which I do NOT have) is about 2X that of the brown door (oh well) !  This guy is almost as old as I am, being new in 1946 when I was 2 years old.

Well there you have it my friends...an "old PRR stalwart" ... just like me

Best Wishes, temp here in Texas is finally decided to become winter, headed for the cellar tonite, 18 degrees !!

Don

Nice car Don I have one with the brown doors. Never seen one with painted doors, that car was produced in 1946 briefly, and is very rare. Good hunting By the way got you beat, been snowing for a day and a half and no place to put it God Speed Mark

(Just did a Edit) Don ebay $275.00 pull the trigger Don. go for it.