Performance of PS 2 Engines

All of my Proto 2 engines run smooth in all speed ranges, including down to 1 SMPH.  That includes steam and Diesel engines.

I have 14 PS2 locos.  None of them are jackrabbits.  All start and operate just as smoothly as my PS3 locos.  I run DCS, but before I got the DCS system I ran a few of the PS2 locos in conventional.  They also started and ran smoothly in conventional.

My only proto 2 engine is the PRR Bantam Turbine just like you. Bought it used at a dealer and it has been my most reliable and lowest costing command engine of any type for the former and later. Works great and haven't had any problems running it- never experienced any jack rabit type starts running any proto 2 or proto 3 engine. 

Arnold,

I have about 15 PS2 engines in my fleet and only had a problem with one. Every other engine runs very smooth (can keep a steady 1 SMPH) and are extremely reliable.

The one engine that has given me many a headache is my "problem child." Long story short: two board replacements, several part replacements and still having problems....

 Around circa 2009-2010 MTH had some "proto-speed control" quality control issues, if memory serves correct.

If possible, could you upload a video of the engine running like a jack rabbit?

Bryce

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Arnold,

I have about 15 PS2 engines in my fleet and only had a problem with one. Every other engine runs very smooth (can keep a steady 1 SMPH) and are extremely reliable.

The one engine that has given me many a headache is my "problem child." Long story short: two board replacements, several part replacements and still having problems....

 Around circa 2009-2010 MTH had some "proto-speed control" quality control issues, if memory serves correct.

If possible, could you upload a video of the engine running like a jack rabbit?

Bryce

Bryce, I will take a video and post it on this thread soon.

I Googled my GP7 and learned that it was in the MTH Catalogue DB 2011 Volume 1, which is near the 2009-2010 time frame you mention when there were Proto speed control quality control issues.

And, I bought the GP7 from a LHS, and was told by the hobby shop owner that he was not sure it would run, so I took a chance when I bought it. I bought it without a box or instructions, and it is used but there was protective foam between the handrails and shell body, so I think the prior owner never, or hardly ever, ran it.

A little while ago, I ran my similar looking, and far superior performance-wise, Railking NY Central Proto 3 smoking diesel (don't have the Item # at my finger tips). There is no comparison. The performance of the Proto 3 is awesome; perfect in every way.

Something else about my GP7 Proto 2 jack rabbit. It's very sensitive to tiny voltage changes cause by my less than perfect Postwar tubular track work. It slows down, stops momentarily, then starts up if it hits a slight track defect. None of my Proto 1 or Proto 3 engines slow down or stop at all at such track defects. Same is true for my Proto 2 Pennsy Bantam turbine. Arnold

Below is a short video of my jack rabbit GP7 in action, with voltage set at 11 volts on the Z-4000:

As you can see, it runs quick, stops and starts up again without me touching the transformer set at 11 volts. At no time did the voltage change from 11 volts on the Z-4000 when I ran the engine during the above video.

Next, is a video of the same engine with transformer set at 12-13 volts:

At the slightly higher voltage, it runs quick along same track without slowing down or stopping.

What are your thoughts about the above engine? What can be done to improve its performance?

Except for its jack rabbit performance at the lower voltage, it's a good engine. Unless something can be done to get it to run better with its current Proto 2 circuit boards, I might convert it to Proto 3 and make it a fabulous engine. Arnold

Arnold

It is probably a long shot but before doing anything exotic run the locomotive for a few hours at consistent voltage with a relatively good consist.  Of course make sure old grease is cleaned out and fresh grease and oil are where they need to be.  See what happens.  I find that it does not help new locomotives to sit in boxes for a long time.  You might get lucky.  Good luck.

Arnold, it looks to me like your just loosing power in a left turn. First check your pick up roller's cradles and make sure there not bent in any way or not perfectly horizontal. If a roller ever experiences dropping off the center rail in a curve or over a switch, it gets bent when the truck straightens out and the roller is forced to climb back up onto the center rail. The metal arms of the cradle are soft and easy to bend back to center and horizontal. Make sure the screw is tight holding them onto the truck too. If they look good, remove the shell and examine all wires that pass along the sides the motors or under the motors, that may be getting pinched between the motor and frame. Somewhere you may have a wire that it's coating is getting rubbed through and grounding out when the truck turns to the left. Magnify the wires and look close. Sometimes it's just a single strand starting to show through. Apply some tape and re-route if needed. Hope that's all it is. I'd hate to see you do an up grade and still have the same problem because all it was, was a simple fix.

Arnold , I have to go along with Ray on the new grease and oil.  

I had purchased an older Proto 3 diesel that ran erratically until I cleaned out old grease .   At the gears on the outside on the wheel axles there was a need for thorough cleaning  (  used tiny hobby paintbrush and Zippo fluid ) and recoiled there and the same treatment in the motor gearbox.

I  also ran the wheels on the test bench with 1000 grit wet and dry sandpaper.   On the center pickup, after cleaning , I used ACF50 for lube and to help guard against further gunk.

I also use a paper towel and  .....sparingly..... apply the ACF50 in a couple places on the center rails.

In your video I wondered about the crossing gates actions as the engine went through ??? !!! 🤔

I hope you get this resolved  , the proto 2 engines I have work really well with exceptional sound quality .

Thanks for all your insightful input.

Now got the engine pulling an 8 car freight plus caboose at 12 volts. At that voltage, it's a racehorse; not slowing down or stopping, and not a Jack rabbit.

Will keep running it for a while. Arnolf

The puzzle continues.

I ran it for 10 minutes. It was fast but fine at 11 to12 volts.

Then, it started running then stopping completely. No derailment. The red light on the Z 4000 came on. I started it up again. It ran, then complete stop and red light on transformer came on.

I think the problem is worse, maybe there is a loose wire or short happening in the engine. 

Will give it a rest and run it later and see what happens.

@Dallas Joseph posted:

.................................

In your video I wondered about the crossing gates actions as the engine went through ??? !!! 🤔.............................

I noted the same.  Is that crossing gate a contactor, or an insulated rail (or other?)?.  If it's a contactor it probably doesn't mean anything (coincidence), but if it's an insulated rail, some odd electrical thing in the engine could be contributing. 

Though without thinking too deeply about it, it's unclear what would cause that since it's just the short circuit provided across the wheels of the engine as it passes that is supposed to be completing the circuit for the gate. 

2nd thought - Is there a possibility the wheels are somehow not continuous?  If the outer rail connection for the engine was only looking at one side of the wheel set (for the purposes of this argument, let's say it was looking at the side coinciding with the insulated rail), it would loose that connection as you cross over the insulated rail (if that's what you have).  That could cause the slowing until the engine coasts past the insulated rail.  Some MTH engines have featured the ability to be used on either 3 rail or 2 rail depending on the setting of a switch, right?  So the wheels for those engines are not physically one hunk of metal, they have to be connected by the wires/circuitry when in 3 rail mode.  (since they obviously can't be a short in 2 rail mode).

Just thinking out loud here.  Good luck with your troubleshooting.

-Dave

I don't think a rest will help a short. You should look for a problem, or send it out for repair.

Hi again Arnold .

In your video I noticed , from our perspective , that some of that large ballast was sticking up between the rails at the crossing .   Also the roadway material was also sticking up between the center and the left outside rail .  What is the roadway material made of ?      

 Had a couple of RK  Dash 8s exhibit a similar behavior over two adjoining Realtrack switches.    5 SMPH  ,engine shuts down..........12 SMPH or more  ,  engine shows slight hesitation and moves on.   

Different solution with changing out center rail pickups to close the distance between the front and back ones............................BUT ............maybe the ballast or roadway material or center pickup or lift at wheels  ........

Don't  give up .......there is a lot of gray matter on this forum.  👨‍🎓

None of the above should make the red light on the transformer come on. It sounds like a short to me.

The crossing gates are indepedently powered from the transformer/Atlas Conector and are activated by insulated  rail.

The material is either Posicle stick wood or cardboard that is between the rails at the railroad crossings.

The ballast is ground up asphalt I got from the sides of roads and some kitty litter. The ballast is loose between the tubular track rails and affixed to the outside of the outside rails with diluted white glue/spray glue.

I run my trains on my layout almost every day for at least 30 minutes and run the dehumidifier every day except for the winter months when there is low humidity in the NYC metro area where I live. I have not cleaned my track in years, but still have no problems with the performance of my 40+ Postwar Lionel locomotives, 15 -20 MTH engines and 5 or 6  Williams/K-Line engines.

I tend to agree with John H that a short may have caused the complete stop of this Proto 2 NY Central GP7 and the red light on transformer. I once again removed the locomotive shell and noticed a tiny bit of worn insulation on a yellow wire soldered on to the left motor casing. I put a small piece of black tape over the worn insulation, and ran the engine with the shell off. It ran at 12 volts without stopping or slowing down.

I put the shell back on, and ran it again at 12 volts without any stopping or slowing down.

So, I am back to square one, which ain't bad. I have a Jack rabbit at 11 or less volts, and a race horse at 12 volts. LOL.

The way it runs, it will be a fast passenger train locomotive; no long slow freight drags for this one. 

Goid news is I have a terrific Proto 3 RS-3 NY Central that does everything perfectly.

Another thing, which may be another clue to the puzzle. The smoke for the Proto 2 GP7 is anemic; it only produces a tiny bit of smoke. So I turned off the smoke during this last go round of running the engine. Arnold

Arnold, have you tried using speed control?

@John H posted:

Arnold, have you tried using speed control?

No, I don't know anything about that. I have no DCS. I do have a Z-4000, but only use the basic functions (horn/whistle, bell, electrocouplers for switching), return to factory defaults when there is a problem). I could try returning to factory defaults one more time.

By the way, I turned the smoke back on. The smoke is still anemic, but has nothing to do with the performance of the engine. It runs the same.

I haven't run conventional in such a long time that I forgot speed control is a default setting. One horn, two bells is the way to toggle on or off. Might be worth trying, if just to eliminate it as a factor.

Arnold,

I second what has been mentioned above, it seems to me that there is a short occurring somewhere or speed control is off (or heaven forbid not working). In addition to what John H. mentioned above, when toggling the "one horn, two bells" your engine must be in neutral. I hope that this fixes the problem!

Bryce

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Arnold,

I second what has been mentioned above, it seems to me that there is a short occurring somewhere or speed control is off (or heaven forbid not working). In addition to what John H. mentioned above, when toggling the "one horn, two bells" your engine must be in neutral. I hope that this fixes the problem!

Bryce

Bryce, thanks for that suggestion. I tried it, returned to the factory defaults, and same problem persists.

I think the problem is that the speed control does not work. Arnold 

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Bryce, thanks for that suggestion. I tried it, returned to the factory defaults, and same problem persists.

I think the problem is that the speed control does not work. Arnold 

Arnold,

Sorry to hear that resetting the engine did not solve your problem. If you would like, I can email you information for a fantastic MTH Authorized Technician that resides in NJ (that is, if you don't already have your own MTH tech. you go to).

Bryce