Don't know if there's pictures posted yet , I'll post these anyway.
Alex
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Its missing the deck plate between the engine and tender and the front scale coupler is broken off. I think thats a CCII model I saw go for $475 on the bay not long ago LOL!
Get ready for more gearbox/smoke unit uprade work Alex, surely this VL model will push the CCII prices even lower.
What ever happened to the "vision" in this line? Its just another remake with some added features. Big deal!
Laidoffsick posted:What ever happened to the "vision" in this line? Its just another remake with some added features. Big deal!
Thank you! Remember when the vision line was first started it was all newly tooled engines. Now it's just remakes.
Did they show off the new effects? I'd like to see them in action. I like the speaker in the boiler and the Bluetooth. Nice innovations. Interested to hear the new sound effects as well.
I wonder if Northern fans are asking when there'll be the VL Northern? I actually thought that would be something in a few years and the Niagara would have been a regular Legacy engine. Guess I was way wrong. Wonder if they will demonstrate it tomorrow or if it is like Ricko said, the CCII version he saw on eBay. I know it isn't mine, that is sitting in a box waiting for me to chat with Alex, lol.
Alex, anyone, did they say this is what the production model will look like? If so it looks like the CCII model with all its nits like the poor engine deck design. If this what they produce expect more broken decks or hinges.
Pete
Actually, I know my CCII Niagara's first deck died of zinc pest.
I still have to replace the universals and gears. At least I bought the metal gears from Lionel.
Fred
I was underwhelmed by the announcement, was hoping for something new.
Its not zinc pest Fred. It just wasn't designed to support the weight of the locomotive which is what it has to do when running over uneven track or sharp vertical transitions. Maybe they will make the new one of titanium. Better yet just design the hinge so the deck can move up beyond the horizontal.
Pete
Maybe this is a pre-pre-production sample? It certainly looks real rough, and I got to believe just looking at that close up that Ryan was not to happy with the shape of it. But, as they say, the show must go on, eh?
Engineer-Joe posted:Did they show off the new effects? I'd like to see them in action. I like the speaker in the boiler and the Bluetooth. Nice innovations. Interested to hear the new sound effects as well.
Supposedly it will be operating at the booth. Not powered up at the Museum.
New effects seem to mostly be smoke related. Added Safety Valve smoke (they say it is a noticeable paired "V" pattern) and a new smoke unit in the tender I believe they said essentially to simulate water spray as the scoop picks up water at speed. No depleting coal here (I'm sure everyone has their own opinion as to whether that's a good or bad thing 
).
Price TBA, they say they are not done with all of their vendors' quotes to know how much it will cost yet.
-Dave
Dave45681 posted:Engineer-Joe posted:Did they show off the new effects? I'd like to see them in action. I like the speaker in the boiler and the Bluetooth. Nice innovations. Interested to hear the new sound effects as well.
Supposedly it will be operating at the booth. Not powered up at the Museum.
New effects seem to mostly be smoke related. Added Safety Valve smoke (they say it is a noticeable paired "V" pattern) and a new smoke unit in the tender I believe they said essentially to simulate water spray as the scoop picks up water at speed. No depleting coal here (I'm sure everyone has their own opinion as to whether that's a good or bad thing
Price TBA, they say they are not done with all of their vendors' quotes to know ho much it will cost yet.
-Dave
Hopefully they will have a working model(and it won't crap out on them). I would rather have the real coal, but that is just me. Being not a fan of the Big Boy, I was okay not getting one of them, and the depleting coal load wasn't my cup of tea. I am sure that it is one awesome thing to those that like it, but not for me. It would be interesting to see the smoke effects work, would definitely want to know how many smoke fluid bottles will need to go into it, lol. 
Laidoffsick posted:What ever happened to the "vision" in this line? Its just another remake with some added features. Big deal!
but with a much higher price tag.
So vision line is now rerun some old thang and put a few new widgets under the hood and charge two house payments for it. Does a vision line loco at least come with an orange module?
Adding the VisionLine name to this only gives them another excuse to a charge a PREMIUM price on model done previously.
The "new" features just mean more repairs for Alex, GRJ, and Marty in the near future.
Yeah call me a party pooper, but what a disappointment for VISIONLINE! Hopefully the box don't call it an electric diesel locomotive
THey started VL with new , never done before locos and amazing, new features, but now thay been re-issuing past locomotives with "Vision" features. Too bad. Won't be buying it.
I guess Lionel ran out of ideas for new, never done before locomotives in O gauge for their VL.
One of the young guys from Lionel this evening said they spent $80K on improving the machining from the CCII model...
c.sam posted:One of the young guys from Lionel this evening said they spent $80K on improving the machining from the CCII model...
Well, that one picture of the back end of the cab looks like either they dropped it(which may be what happened to the front coupler) and dinged the back end all up. Perhaps the tooling was on the tender since I don't think I have seen the likes of that before(where the water splash effect or whatever they call it is).
Well....that was a waste of $80k
pghtrainguy posted:They started VL with new, never done before locos and amazing, new features, but now they been re-issuing past locomotives with "Vision" features. Too bad. Won't be buying it.
Amen to that but to be fair they've tried to innovate with what they've got. $80K on improving tooling is nothing to sneeze at but offer a VL Veranda Turbine and I'll be more interested. (As in seriously interested.)
Laidoffsick posted:Adding the VisionLine name to this only gives them another excuse to a charge a PREMIUM price on model done previously.
The "new" features just mean more repairs for Alex, GRJ, and Marty in the near future.
Yeah call me a party pooper, but what a disappointment for VISIONLINE! Hopefully the box don't call it an electric diesel locomotive
OK. I'll bite. I will call you a "Party Pooper" (caps intentional). Or, how about "Negative Nancy"? Or, maybe "Debbie Downer"? 
I think the crap we get on this Forum when Lionel announces a new product certainly lessens the value and enjoyment of this Forum for me. I'm sure I'm not alone.
I was at the Museum today. The VL Niagara is going to be a great loc. My congratulations in advance to those who buy and enjoy this really sharp piece of model railroading. 
pghtrainguy posted:THey started VL with new , never done before locos and amazing, new features, but now thay been re-issuing past locomotives with "Vision" features. Too bad. Won't be buying it.
Two theories... one is this management team just doesn't have the innovative ilk to introduce VisionLine products that we saw nearly 10 years ago. The other theory gives Lionel's management team some benefit of doubt, and points the finger overseas. Could we FINALLY be realizing that overseas production comes with its own set of problems that the spreadsheet wonderkids of yesteryear either cleverly hid from their executives OR didn't have the foresight to see the issues brewing at overseas factories that have worn down so many of today's importers?
In either case, I think we're seeing the "new normal" where catalog re-issues containing only minor, incremental feature improvements are par for the course -- even for top-of-the-line product. But yet there's no shortage of holding back on consumer pricing. 
Hi Alex, Thanks for posting the pictures. One of my best memories of going to York was meeting you! One of these days I will be able to go to York again. I hope Lionel works out the bugs and the engine is a huge success.
rthomps posted:Laidoffsick posted:Adding the VisionLine name to this only gives them another excuse to a charge a PREMIUM price on model done previously.
The "new" features just mean more repairs for Alex, GRJ, and Marty in the near future.
Yeah call me a party pooper, but what a disappointment for VISIONLINE! Hopefully the box don't call it an electric diesel locomotive
OK. I'll bite. I will call you a "Party Pooper" (caps intentional). Or, how about "Negative Nancy"? Or, maybe "Debbie Downer"?
I think the crap we get on this Forum when Lionel announces a new product certainly lessens the value and enjoyment of this Forum for me. I'm sure I'm not alone.
I was at the Museum today. The VL Niagara is going to be a great loc. My congratulations in advance to those who buy and enjoy this really sharp piece of model railroading.
Well I am not alone in my opinion either.....read above again. Remakes of the same old engines is NOT what VisionLine WAS about! So you go right ahead and spend 2K for a better speaker or 2, another smoke unit, and upgraded sound card. No thank you. I can make those improvements to an older engine for a fraction of the cost.
Rocky Mountaineer postedTwo theories... one is this management team just doesn't have the innovative ilk to introduce VisionLine products that we saw nearly 10 years ago. The other theory gives Lionel's management team some benefit of doubt, and points the finger overseas.
RM: It could be neither. I don't think that the present Lionel team lacks ideas; I do think that there are overseas QC issues but that might not be the root of the problem. Lack of development funding/capital is another possibility. Years ago Lionel's present backers put up tens of millions of $$$ to keep the brand going. They might be frustrated that the return on that money is low. So they are not going to sanction another Acela or VL Centipede venture and instead stick with what they know will sell in reasonable volume. The GG1 and Niagara are old favorites for many and so represent reduced risk-taking.
Certainly not what the VL started out as and I'm glad I got some of what I think was the best of it to date.
Well, one thing I hope is that the price tag is less than what the VL Big Boy was. Yeah, I know I am jumping in the lake on that one, I would like to see this at a max of $1,700, but heck, that is not going to be. My main concern is that if this is too pricey, those that want it may have seconds thoughts(meaning me of course) if there is something else more enticing in the catalog. I had said somewhere on here that I was waiting for a Challenger to come back around as Ryan had stated in the TW video some time ago that he may be popping that in the near future. He also said #90 was on his list too. So, if either of those two come out this coming year, it is going to be a scramble to figure out what is the good buy.
I really thought that the Niagara was going to be coming around as a Legacy engine maybe in 2019, and that there would be some other NYC stuff coming this coming year(much like was speculated in the 2018 catalog topic), I knew he had said no Hudson's. I really thought we would be looking at some really cool Diesel(that I wouldn't be interested in, big steam head here) that would have been the "Oh yes!" for a lot of people in general. Of course I have no idea what that would have been, but I know there was a ton saying a bunch of Diesels.
Those of us interested in the Niagara can only hope that it doesn't act like a Ford Pinto and blow up as soon as you apply track power. Lets just hope that the team has answers for any critics(that are very good answers), and that whatever anyone hopes to see in the VL's future, is heard by them and will be possible to be made not so far down the road. Yeah, I know that is a ton load of coal to get out of the mountains and down to the furnaces, but we can only hope ears listen to what is being said. People have the option to give them an earful, but it is their choice to listen or not.
Come what may.
Just make a nice accurate loco with good sound and nice detail and sell em for a reasonable price. And make sure they work when they get to my house. Work on the basics, ive seen a bunch of flops this last couple years and I'm on the fence about buying anything else form them. I'm tempted to cancel my passenger cars as I worry they'll have issues like everything else. If they put thumb tacks on the 21" passenger cars, ill never buy another BTO item form them again. Thumb tacks suck and so do loco reissues
rthomps posted:Laidoffsick posted:Adding the VisionLine name to this only gives them another excuse to a charge a PREMIUM price on model done previously.
The "new" features just mean more repairs for Alex, GRJ, and Marty in the near future.
Yeah call me a party pooper, but what a disappointment for VISIONLINE! Hopefully the box don't call it an electric diesel locomotive
OK. I'll bite. I will call you a "Party Pooper" (caps intentional). Or, how about "Negative Nancy"? Or, maybe "Debbie Downer"?
I think the crap we get on this Forum when Lionel announces a new product certainly lessens the value and enjoyment of this Forum for me. I'm sure I'm not alone.
I was at the Museum today. The VL Niagara is going to be a great loc. My congratulations in advance to those who buy and enjoy this really sharp piece of model railroading.
I do not buy your "crap we get on the forum" remark. It is forum members expressing their opinions and ALL opinions are welcome. Many of the opinions put forth were very valid!
Now my curiosity is, what will the whistle sound like. Now I did my research and lot of people will be surprised. Actually I didn't know for myself until I did research on the Niagara whistle. Well I found this site - http://www.trainboard.com/high...gara-whistles.60403/ Niagara's used 3 chime hancock long bell. A video attached, which isn't mine, shows what this whistle sounds like below. But to make sure, I know someone here on this forum should know, did Niagara's use Hancock long bells?
Matt Makens posted:Just make a nice accurate loco with good sound and nice detail and sell em for a reasonable price. And make sure they work when they get to my house. Work on the basics, ive seen a bunch of flops this last couple years and I'm on the fence about buying anything else form them. I'm tempted to cancel my passenger cars as I worry they'll have issues like everything else. If they put thumb tacks on the 21" passenger cars, ill never buy another BTO item form them again. Thumb tacks suck and so do loco reissues
Well put Matt and AMEN!
Hancock52 posted:Rocky Mountaineer postedTwo theories... one is this management team just doesn't have the innovative ilk to introduce VisionLine products that we saw nearly 10 years ago. The other theory gives Lionel's management team some benefit of doubt, and points the finger overseas.
RM: It could be neither. I don't think that the present Lionel team lacks ideas; I do think that there are overseas QC issues but that might not be the root of the problem. Lack of development funding/capital is another possibility. Years ago Lionel's present backers put up tens of millions of $$$ to keep the brand going. They might be frustrated that the return on that money is low. So they are not going to sanction another Acela or VL Centipede venture and instead stick with what they know will sell in reasonable volume. The GG1 and Niagara are old favorites for many and so represent reduced risk-taking.
Certainly not what the VL started out as and I'm glad I got some of what I think was the best of it to date.
Finally, we get a reasoned approach from Hancock in this thread regarding the announcement of this locomotive. 
This locomotive has many new features and the best way to introduce these features is in a proven seller. This will be a popular loc. The people buying are going to end up with a unique piece. It will be a winner.
Whether it's in the vision of the VL or not, things change. IMO this loc has enough outstanding new features to certainly qualify as a "vision". 
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Maybe this is a pre-pre-production sample? It certainly looks real rough, and I got to believe just looking at that close up that Ryan was not to happy with the shape of it. But, as they say, the show must go on, eh?
Matt Makens posted:
Just make a nice accurate loco with good sound and nice detail and sell em for a reasonable price. And make sure they work when they get to my house. Work on the basics, ive seen a bunch of flops this last couple years and I'm on the fence about buying anything else form them. I'm tempted to cancel my passenger cars as I worry they'll have issues like everything else. If they put thumb tacks on the 21" passenger cars, ill never buy another BTO item form them again. Thumb tacks suck and so do loco reissues
Well put Matt and AMEN!
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Maybe this is a pre-pre-production sample? It certainly looks real rough, and I got to believe just looking at that close up that Ryan was not to happy with the shape of it. But, as they say, the show must go on, eh?
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Maybe this is a pre-pre-production sample? It certainly looks real rough, and I got to believe just looking at that close up that Ryan was not to happy with the shape of it. But, as they say, the show must go on, eh?
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Maybe this is a pre-pre-production sample? It certainly looks real rough, and I got to believe just looking at that close up that Ryan was not to happy with the shape of it. But, as they say, the show must go on, eh?
Matt Makens posted:
Just make a nice accurate loco with good sound and nice detail and sell em for a reasonable price. And make sure they work when they get to my house. Work on the basics, ive seen a bunch of flops this last couple years and I'm on the fence about buying anything else form them. I'm tempted to cancel my passenger cars as I worry they'll have issues like everything else. If they put thumb tacks on the 21" passenger cars, ill never buy another BTO item form them again. Thumb tacks suck and so do loco reissues
Well put Matt and AMEN!
Brian did state in the Notch 6 interview (as I heard it) that this was their 3rd production sample and plenty of work needed to be done before the final version "happens".
pghtrainguy posted:I guess Lionel ran out of ideas for new, never done before locomotives in O gauge for their VL.
Maybe. But we vote with dollars, and we have not been casting enough votes.
As much as some of us would like to see some different locomotives, the customers who vote with their dollars want NYC Niagaras and Hudsons; SP Daylight 4-8-4's and articulateds; UP 4-8-4's and articulateds; Santa Fe 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's; other large steam locomotives of NP, GN and DM&IR; Nickel Plate 2-8-4's; N&W 4-8-4's and articulateds; PRR GG1's, 4-6-2's and 2-10-4's; Milwaukee Road 261 4-8-4; and passenger cars sold in sets including dome cars (whether the railroad ever had dome cars or not).
Nearly all of us has seen a cataloged engine that we liked and wanted to buy, die on the vine for lack of orders. I am just grateful that Lionel, out of the clear blue, decided to produce a Santa Fe 2-8-2. I'm not expecting to see an AT&SF 2-6-2 or a 2-8-4 or a true Santa Fe doodlebug or a 2-8-0 or an Alco-GE HH1000 any time soon, but there will be 4-8-4's galore. They sell well.
Think about our Canadian brethren in this hobby. They have it even worse, if they desire uniquely Canadian steam or diesel locomotives.
I am on the fence with this VL offering. It is a loaded Engine on looks and functionality. all that said I believe that it still has the face that only a mother would love. I like it.
You can make a TMCC engine into a legacy like Bruk is doing with a AC-9 and soon a Class A. Now if the Niagaras had their motor issues fixed you can do what Bruk is doing to his Locos. Like Doug said Vision Line is suppose to be stuff that hasn’t been made(new tooling) so as an example: would be UP Coal Turbine, N&W Jawn Henry or an item from the K-Line tooling available.
Now when those Challengers came out years ago they made 5 different roads with 2 different toolings. It would be nice to reissue the pieces that sold out quick in the Vision Line production because I know a couple would want a GE 2010 or a Challenger to add to their collection
rthomps posted:Hancock52 posted:Rocky Mountaineer postedTwo theories... one is this management team just doesn't have the innovative ilk to introduce VisionLine products that we saw nearly 10 years ago. The other theory gives Lionel's management team some benefit of doubt, and points the finger overseas.
RM: It could be neither. I don't think that the present Lionel team lacks ideas; I do think that there are overseas QC issues but that might not be the root of the problem. Lack of development funding/capital is another possibility. Years ago Lionel's present backers put up tens of millions of $$$ to keep the brand going. They might be frustrated that the return on that money is low. So they are not going to sanction another Acela or VL Centipede venture and instead stick with what they know will sell in reasonable volume. The GG1 and Niagara are old favorites for many and so represent reduced risk-taking.
Certainly not what the VL started out as and I'm glad I got some of what I think was the best of it to date.
Finally, we get a reasoned approach from Hancock in this thread regarding the announcement of this locomotive.
...
It's a reasoned approach because you agree with it. And oh, by the way... and for the record before somebody else puts more words into my mouth that I didn't say... my comments were directed to that which constitutes the change in VisionLine status as we've seen it over the past few years following the VL Big Boy. They were NOT deriding the announcement of a Niagara offering per se. And if you read one of my posts a couple of days ago, I mentioned a Niagara announcement could spell a bit of trouble for my wallet. 
Candidly, I think the Niagara -- executed properly, and fixing the problems inherent with the CCII model decades ago -- will be a VERY popular steam locomotive. I would have preferred the J3A Hudson (again from nearly 15 years ago), because THAT's the Hudson Lionel should have produced when they did the VL Hudson several years ago. But a Niagara would have been my second choice. So will Lionel make it hurt for buyers to snag one of these VL Niagara's? YOU BET THEY WILL. And that goes without saying. 
I believe the real root of the issue behind VisionLine's recent backing off from its earlier heights of excellent locomotive offerings goes back to the complexities inherent with overseas manufacturing today. Unless an importer is gonna spend SERIOUS time and money overseeing the negotiation and manufacturing process -- as we've seen with Scott Mann in 3rd Rail, then we can expect to see product re-issues with minimal feature upgrades as the new-order of the day. And to be perfectly candid, I get the impression that even those minor, incremental feature upgrades will give Stateside managers a few extra gray hairs by the end of the project. And that's not so much a criticism of them, but rather an observation of the increased difficulty they're now encountering with overseas manufacturers. In other words, if the product managers KNOW they're gonna encounter "X" amount of pain just implementing one new feature upgrade, they might be thinking "Why even bother trying to get a complete, newly-tooled locomotive through the design and production phase these days ala VisionLine of 2010?"
This is not a problem unique to Lionel either. Just look at MTH's 2018 Volume 1 Catalog released today. I can't recall the number of locomotive re-issues in a catalog like that before. Some nice stuff sprinkled in as well. But generally speaking, you don't need to be a die-hard enthusiast to see a similar pattern emerging in that camp too. And let's not even go down this road with Atlas-O. 
