Layout change's 08/05/2023

Yes, you think you have a lot of room, but O scale eats it up fast both horizontally and vertically.

Morning guys, I just had a chance to look at the latest drawing. It looks like it would be a possible build would take some thinking on how to go about making an open channel in my framing for the lower track.  Something I am going to have to consider.

Jeff you are correct I went back out and measured the Menards Seed and Feed building and it is 11 1/2", then the next one down is 10 1/2" which is the train station. The 16"s will help with a place to puta road! LOL

Hi Dave and Jeff, I went out and looked around to see if this was doable and it is with some work. so, I started measuring things out and the marrow bench width is already at 36" so I would just leave that alone and build off of that.

Now here is where I really screwed up. when I build the room about 5 years ago, I built it as a 12' X 24'. Here is the problem and I am so sorry for being such a fool, I didn't take into account the wall width, so it is really 11.58' X 23.66'. I know I am going to really change things as the door opening is right at 129" or 10.75" from the right side of the drawing.

If you guys wish to quit, I understand!

Quit? No way would I abandon you! Unfortunately, I’ve got too many things to do today and I’m about to leave, so I won’t be able to see what that does to the design. It should just be a matter of shortening everything in the middle, but “should be” is non-commital for a reason. 😜

EDIT: Forgot about the door, so that could be a problem.

Thanks Dave. the door is to the left of the right big loops. it measures 129" from the right wall.

The door is 33" wide and the wall on the left side of the door is 10' or 120"

I am in no hurry Dave I am just glad you're sticking with it!

I think I am going to have to move one of the cars out of the garage, so I have a place to store all this stuff! LOL

Wow, I am shocked to hear your changing your nice layout, however I see the logic. I admire those that can utilize computer programs to draw track plans for serious review. When I built my model railroad, in 1999, with really no good computer program, we built a nice around the walls layout, leaving a 30 inch walk in isle…. This was a year and a half project that just was not user friendly, I tore the entire layout down, my wife and friends were totally shocked, and I explained that the plan was a big mistake. (We we’re and will be using the all new Lionel TMCC command control system) We then made a large Island type layout, built in grid construction, and made a similar copy of the Lionel showroom layout with enhancements. The upper level actually utilizes the walls therefore allowing 0120 circles. So, I can understand the major layout changes you plan to make. One thing that really helped when we tore the first layout down was we hadn’t started scenery or track ballasting. So, I can see the issues that can occur trying to clean up the track and begin again. I wish you good luck, and thank you for allowing us to share in your new adventure, it’s going to be fun. It’s nice that your friends are able to make computer generated track plans, that’s so cool. This will be a fun thread to follow. Happy Railroading Everyone

Mike, I made the same mistake when we started planning my layout almost 6 years ago, and Dave didn't leave me either.  I knew the addition my in-laws built was 12x12, so I went with that in planning.  Once I got planning, it dawned on me that 12x12 had to be the outside dimensions.  I measured and the room and it is 11' 4" x 11' 6".  I just call it 11x11 now for sake of simplicity.

@mike g. posted:

Thanks Dave. the door is to the left of the right big loops. it measures 129" from the right wall.

The door is 33" wide and the wall on the left side of the door is 10' or 120"

I am in no hurry Dave I am just glad you're sticking with it!

I think I am going to have to move one of the cars out of the garage, so I have a place to store all this stuff! LOL

Well that leads to the natural expansion of the layout through the wall into the garage Mike! Just tell your wife you mistook the portal for the extension into the back yard.....

Bob

Hi guys thanks for looking!

@leapinlarryLarry thanks for checking in, it is going to be one heck of a project! All my track is ballasted and most of it will be coming up and getting cleaned up. It doesn't have to be perfect as long as it lays flat and connects, it will all get ballasted again!

@Mark Boyce Mark, I should have known better! I built the darn thing! LOL

@RSJB18 Bob that is a great idea, but when I told the wife I was moving a car out to make room to store some train stuff while I redo the train room, she said make sure it is your car! CAUSE MINE STAYS IN!!!!! LOL

@mike g. posted:

Hi guys thanks for looking!

@Mark Boyce Mark, I should have known better! I built the darn thing! LOL

😆😆😆

Greetings Mike,  We have been out of country so I have been out of touch with much of the forum chatter regarding your layout dilemma.   One thing not noted is that "grandkids grow taller".   I would think that you would begin with the hole in the wall for the outside addition and then work down from that point to determine the workable height and grades for your layout.   Sounds like a very ambitious project, but remember, your first priority is "Your enjoyment".   My observation is that most people tend to overdue trackage.   Hope you can find a good balance and arrive at a point that makes you happy.   Sorry that I cannot give more insight or advice.   Do what makes you happy!   Good luck, have fun and I look forward to your progress posts!

Cheers, Dave

Mike, to add on to what Bob said,

”OK GUYS....PROBLEM SOLVING IN FOUR WORDS....

LOWER LEVEL STORAGE TRACKS” 👍

I have a return loop and four 10’ long tracks to turn and store trains under my yard. It allows me more flexibility without expanding the footprint of the layout. My benchwork is simple L-girder. Very easily modified to suit any expansion or change in layout. You can adjust the height to suite your needs.

Andy

Mike,

11.58' = 138.96", so I called it 138" to be safe.
23.66' = 283.92", so I called it 283", again to be safe.
If the door is 129" from the right, 120" from the left and 33" wide, that makes 282", so I placed it at the 129" point (154) on the right to be safe. If it opens to the left, then it's back to the drawing board.

As you'll see, I removed a bunch of O-72 curves and flex track to make the loops fit, though they still don't really fit, so maybe you can live with not being to open the door all the way. I also used more layers to keep things straight. The main level is 30", the upper level 39" and the lower level 23" with a 3.8% grade. Because of the O-72 curves on the upper level, the aisle shrunk quite a bit, so that might be a deal breaker, but it's the only way O-72 curves fit without shrinking the space for buildings.

Hi Dave, thanks for all your work! It looks great! As for the door it is no big deal as it opens out, the aisle it should be fine as long as I don't gain any more weight! LOL

You have done an amazing job and thank you so much for everything!

You’re very welcome. It needs some tweaking so all the tracks join, I just didn’t take the time until you had a chance to look at it.

I just glanced at it, but it looked like everything would fit!

Hey Dave, maybe you or someone else can tell me how long of a hole I am going to need in the main level to have clearance for the ramp going down to the lower track storage yard?

The layout redo has been put on hold for a little while as the CEO thinks the Christmas lights should be put up first! LOL

Mike, the grade down from 30" to 23" is 184" (almost 16'). It reaches the 5" mark around 134" (a bit over 11').  Depending on the height of the equipment you'll be running, you can probably get away with 5" plus the thickness of the decking, but it would probably be easiest to just make it the full length of the grade. If it were me, I'd probably just go all the way to the left wall. The problem I see is supporting the track and decking above the yard. With only 7" of clearance, you won't have room for crossmembers, so you'll have to use some pylons thin enough to fit between the yard tracks and hefty enough to support the main level decking, tracks and buildings.

I also noticed that the grade track is close to the main level track, so I moved it closer to the wall. Hopefully, that will give you some room for a thin wall along the main level track to avoid a train rolling into the opening for the grade track.

Thanks Dave, I plan on using "L" brackets to really support the upper level, so it won't be a problem cutting out for the ramp going down. I just didn't want to cut it out the full length!

Dave, your amazing with the way you calculate your dimensions.  I can build Anything but have zero foresight to design something.  Lol.

@E-UNIT-79 posted:

Dave, your amazing with the way you calculate your dimensions.  I can build Anything but have zero foresight to design something.  Lol.

Thank you. I guess it comes from designing computer programs in the Air Force based on what folks needed/wanted. The thought process is pretty much the same, just different visual tools. It helps to be comfortable with computers too.

Hi Dave I was wondering if there was a way to get the reverse loop affect by tying the inner loop to the blue siding on the top? and removing the most inside loop on the bottom?

Hi Dave, I did some work on the plan this morning, here is what I came up with. Let me know what you think.

I still get the reverse loop and it gives me 22" in the middle for buildings, roads, some parking and sidewalks.

I would have added the lower level for train storage, but I don't know how! LOL

Mike, I like the changes, but you used a version of the design that has the larger original room footprint, not the latest one with the changed measurements.

Hi Dave, I know Iwas just throwing it out there before I started changing up the one you did for me!

Mike,

Here's a version using the latest room measurements and your recent changes. I added the lower level, moved all tracks to their correct layers and moved the start of the grade to the upper level to AFTER the entryway. I doubt you want to have a grade on the lift out/up platform. I also changed all the yellow tracks to the same shade of yellow, you used at least 2 of 3 shades depending on when you made changes. I also cut tracks so everything joins. However, but I didn't change them so they're all from 30" tracks like I usually do.

Anyway, I think it strikes the right balance between track and space for landscaping. The 1st photo includes tabletop and the buildings you had in the file. The 2nd photo excludes those.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Mike,

Here's a version using the latest room measurements and your recent changes. I added the lower level, moved all tracks to their correct layers and moved the start of the grade to the upper level to AFTER the entryway. I doubt you want to have a grade on the lift out/up platform. I also changed all the yellow tracks to the same shade of yellow, you used at least 2 of 3 shades depending on when you made changes. I also cut tracks, so everything joins. However, but I didn't change them so they're all from 30" tracks like I usually do.

Anyway, I think it strikes the right balance between track and space for landscaping. The 1st photo includes tabletop and the buildings you had in the file. The 2nd photo excludes those.

I like this version much better. Reversing loops, storage, the ability to transverse lines and best of all real-estate for scenery.

Thanks Dave, it looks better with all your touches! As for the one line that goes from the top inner loop to the lower inner loop I can deal with as I was thinking I could just put a river along the track and some auto bridges over that.

@Dave Ripp. Dave I agree I think it's a good balance!

Hi Dave I just saved the file and opened it but there is no changes and I don't see the storage yard.

Sorry, Mike, I hit the wrong file name. I've corrected it, so check the post again.

Mike, I made some changes to the baseboard just now, so if you downloaded the corrected file I mentioned above, please download the newest version.

Looks like a great plan Mike. And as a bonus, you don't need to raise the bridges every time you want to open the door.

@DoubleDAZ- Dave- you did a great job. Good balance of running, switching, and scenery space. The hidden storage is a nice add.....

Bob

@DoubleDAZ  Dave, I love what you have done with Mike's Layout plan. Can you rebuild my train area and double the space without moving walls?

Dave is there anyway to add a run around on the slope leading to the lower level yard?  Presumably anything going down there will be a switcher which can take 032 turnouts or something larger at 042?  If Mike is always backing down no issue but if he leads with an engine then there is a problem.

Mike - I've never really understood the function of the upper portion. Trains have to come down and potentially interfere with the trains on the double mainline. Well maybe that's the art of operations. I like running 3 trains at once, maybe close a O42 loop on the upper section so you could run a local on the upper area.

All this depends on what industries you want to model and where the runway goes.

Just thinking out  loud.  Jeff

I like the latest plan.  As always, Jeff's ideas get us thinking!!

Jeff, sorry, but can't double your space and I don't think a runaround siding will fit, the tracks there are too close. What I did was steal some space in the lower left, if Mike agrees, and added an escape track to one of the slots in the yard. I also added a parking track in the upper left for a yard switcher.

FWIW, the upper level is simply to give the layout some height, room for a raised town or industry and maybe a mountain scene.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Love this.  I’m going to incorporate it into my planning.  I think this will nicely solve 1/2 dozen design quandaries I’ve been trying to reconcile.   👍🏼 🙃

Dave , everything looks great

But what is an escape route for? There really isn't no where to go. Just asking. I really like the idea of the switcher parking area!

@VJandP posted:

Love this.  I’m going to incorporate it into my planning.  I think this will nicely solve 1/2 dozen design quandaries I’ve been trying to reconcile.   👍🏼 🙃

An engine escape can be added to all 3 legs, I just added it to 1 to save money on switches. It makes dead-end yards more useable. It’s not just for trains pulling in engine first either, yard switchers can use it too. A runaround track would have been nice, but you can’t park cars on a grade, they’ll have a tendency to roll, so even if there were enough space, I didn’t think it was feasible.

Mike, it just lets trains pull in engine-first. It drops its cars just before the switch, then the engine moves past the switch and crosses over to “escape”. It can then pick up a different set of cars on one of the other spurs and go back up to the main level. The only thing is the engine would then be running “backwards”, not a big deal for diesels. Without the escape, you’d have to always back trains in to drop off. If you plan to always back in to use all 6 spurs for storage, then the escape is not needed.

Because I’m not really into switching, I’d always back in so I could maximize storage. Since the layout allows for unattended running of 2 trains, you could have 7 consists available for variety; 5 in storage and 2 running. If you use the escape, then those 2 spurs have to be empty. The engine would take a consist from 1 of the other 4 spurs and the yard switcher would then clear the arrival spur.

Having the escape though gives someone the option of playing in the yard moving cars around reconfiguring consists while the other trains are running on the main level. Grandkids might find it fun to do that, especially if you task them to put together specific groups of cars.

More storage could be added in that open space to the right, they’d just be smaller spurs. They could be used to store more engines.

For me, the escape tracks will be great for an engine storage area.  This will allow me to stack three or four engines on one siding but can sneak them out to use them without having to pull everything out and juggle their positions.  Two long sidings with escape tracks up against an edge of the layout will take up much less space than a full blown yard with shorter sidings.