Layout change's 08/05/2023

Hi Mike,

A double crossover in the center would reverse both ways.

Hi John, The long section in the middle I am trying to leave open for buildings! Or were you talking about where the 2 tracks are close to the front?

Mike, it seems John must mean the section in the middle where you want to have buildings.  A crossover out front would only let a train change tracks, not direction.

How old are all the kids?

@Mark Boyce posted:

Mike, it seems John must mean the section in the middle where you want to have buildings.  A crossover out front would only let a train change tracks, not direction.

How old are all the kids?

The oldest grandson is 13 and the youngest out of 4 just turned 5. They love the trains, but I pick them put to see everything else or bring chairs for them to stand on.

Mike, just isn't any practical way to get those loops to O-72. This is the best I could do and I don't think there's enough clearance around the loops. And there certainly is no room to move around the room  or add buildings, etc.

@mike g. posted:

The oldest grandson is 13 and the youngest out of 4 just turned 5. They love the trains, but I pick them put to see everything else or bring chairs for them to stand on.

Yes you will be picking up the youngest for some time with the present height.  In my case, I’ll have modified my layout several times and then be in the senior center before I would have to worry about helping a grandchild see the trains.

Thanks Dave, I didnt think there was a way. I just thought I would throw it out there looking for a miracle! LOL Guess I will have to see if I can switch my engine back from a fixed piolet, something I will have to think ab out!

Hi John, here is what I have come up for a crossover, I put it all the way at the end to leave as much room for buildings! LOL

@Mark Boyce posted:

Yes you will be picking up the youngest for some time with the present height.  In my case, I’ll have modified my layout several times and then be in the senior center before I would have to worry about helping a grandchild see the trains.

LOL Mark you never know! One of your daughters could come over tomorrow and ask how you would like to be a Grandpa! LOL

Okay, Mike, just wanted you see what it would take. If I get some time tomorrow, I’ll see what I can do about the clutter on the right side. As it is now, there isn’t enough clearance between all those tracks.

Hi Dave, I am also going to try to clean it up. It should help me learn more about SCARM!

Thank you for all your help, you always seem to be there to help the community!

Mike, things started coming together for me using SCARM these last couple weeks.  Your brain is younger than mine, so I hope it comes together for you too!

Mike, I’ll let you play with then, I’ve got a few things I need to do. If you get stuck, don’t hesitate to contact me.

@mike g.  Mike - if you placed a double crossover where the single is, you would get your engine reversing option.

It continues to be mind boggling to me that 12 x 24 is not enough room to do all you want considering 072 dia curves. I never thought I would have that much room and with the present situation that is not going to happen.  My 9x13 left a lot of wants impossible, my new available space at max 12x16 is not much better. A real head scratcher, lots of compromise in the future.  Maybe I just have to buy a larger house and move again. The thought gives me a headache.   

Morning Jeff, Thanks for your comment and I am with you as my head hurts also! LOL

We thought about moving to get out of our state and the tax burden, but the wife decided she can't leave her grandbabies too far away. So, I decided to change things up for the grand kids as I was going to if we had moved so they can see it better. Plus, the layout I have now is nice but takes up a large amount of space. This new one will give me a little corner to have a small workstation. Here is what I came up with this morning. 

As you can see, I fixed the spacing between track using flex track.

I have attached the file if you would like to make some suggestions.

Hope you're having a good day and getting ready for the big move!

Mike, Staying near your grandchildren is huge.  I'm glad you are staying put.  As far as the layout goes, I think it was good to plan for a small work station right in the train room.  So what is the height of the yellow lower level?  I think I missed out on that detail.

Hi Mark, thanks, In the plan it states 40" but I think Iam going to lower that. Just don't know how far yet!

Yes, that might be too high for the youngsters.  Thank you for helping me with my oversight

@mike g.  Mike - Illinois has one of the highest tax burdens in the country. Champaign/Urbana is particularly bad.  Go out for dinner 10.75% tax, buy prepared food at the grocery store 10.75% tax, own a house 3% of the value ( a $400,000 house gives you the privilege of paying $12,000/yr and few services) and no property tax increase cap. Michigan is not cheap but 1.5% is way better than 3% and has increase limits. I voted with my feet.  Our grandkids were in Michigan so it was an easy decision to escape Illinois. Illinois is a great place to live, just not for paying taxes, and unmanageable in retirement.

I'll noodle over your scarm file.  What purpose does the green loop serve?  I see access to a couple of short spurs but not much else. (I assume that is on a lower level - my scarm is rejecting the recent upgrade so I cannot open anything at the moment.)  Jeff

BTW Dave you are a magician with these track plans.   

Jeff, thanks for the comment, but I haven’t had much to do with this design other than show Mike that O-72 loops won’t fit. 🤣 The green line is the upper level. It provides space for the spurs and presumably a town, industry or something as well as a reversing loop.

Mark, we’re 2,000 miles away from our oldest daughter and 2 grandsons. It’s definitely a struggle to see them at least once a year, especially since the youngest now lives 3 hours further. But, having been military, we’re used to it and you just adapt.

Mike, good job on the redesign. I’ll download it and take a closer look. The only thing I don’t like is the red grade track that will block the view a bit along the aisle and require a multi-level lift-out, assuming you’re not going with a duck-under. I’m interested to see if Jeff comes up with any more ideas.

Mike, I like the plan. When I rebuilt mine for the umpteenth time, I went with way more scenery than track. I always say to each his own, but at 59 I don't like climbing or ducking. Whatever you decide I'm sure it will be great like your past efforts.

The layout you have now is around the room from your diagram.  Why not just keep it around the room, lose the reverse loops and build a wye to turn a train like they do in the real world?

-Greg

Hi Jeff, as Dave has stated the green line in the upper loop and the 2 spurs are up for grabs right now. I am leaning towards moving my tank farm up there but not sure!

Dave, I see what you're saying. I have no problem moving the start of the grade right before the first curve going up.

Dave Ripp,I am in the same boat you are talking about, less track and better scenery!

Greg, sounds interesting just don't know where I would even start!

Thanks for all the input!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Yes, that might be too high for the youngsters.  Thank you for helping me with my oversight

Hi Mark, I went out and the main table height is 37" With the upper loop being 44".

With that being said I might lower the main table height to 30" and the upper loop to 39".

Hope you guys will chime in!

Mike - TPRR was 30 inches to the plywood sheeting. It made it very easy for my grandson to reach the track and play on the layout. Was not too bad working under the layout and my reach was pretty good, but did at times have to climb on the track. The only negative was at 30 inches it was quite a challenge to crawl under and twist around to get through the pop-ups (in my case pop-up was not an accurate terms - nothing quick at all about it). In a couple of corners I had to put my back against the wall and slowly wiggle my way up. Once there I could stand easily. Of course I am 6'2" and no where near as flexible nor thin as I used to be. I considered it my railroading yoga.  For TPRR2 I may use 40 inches just to have duck-unders and eliminate lift outs where possible. 

You have to decide on deck height. More from how you want to see the layout and how you will be able to operate. For the GKs I would build short risers (10 inches deep and 3 feet long) they can stand on (2x6s work fine for this.) Just make sure the legs at floor level are outside the edges of the platform - like below - to avoid tipping.

@ScoutingDad posted:

Mike - TPRR was 30 inches to the plywood sheeting. It made it very easy for my grandson to reach the track and play on the layout. Was not too bad working under the layout and my reach was pretty good, but did at times have to climb on the track. The only negative was at 30 inches it was quite a challenge to crawl under and twist around to get through the pop-ups (in my case pop-up was not an accurate terms - nothing quick at all about it). In a couple of corners I had to put my back against the wall and slowly wiggle my way up. Once there I could stand easily. Of course I am 6'2" and no where near as flexible nor thin as I used to be. I considered it my railroading yoga.  For TPRR2 I may use 40 inches just to have duck-unders and eliminate lift outs where possible.

You have to decide on deck height. More from how you want to see the layout and how you will be able to operate. For the GKs I would build short risers (10 inches deep and 3 feet long) they can stand on (2x6s work fine for this.) Just make sure the legs at floor level are outside the edges of the platform - like below - to avoid tipping.

Thanks for the information Jeff, I have been thinking 30" as I am only 5'9" I don't plan on t many popups but just a couple. This new build is for not only for the GK's but ease on me! LOL Not to be mean but I thought about the short risers, but I have this one grandson that no matter what you do he would find a way to fall off it and hurt himself! Then I would be in the doghouse! It's easier for me to spend more time under the layout trying to get things done then it is in the doghouse!

Right now I am on my SCARM file trying to lower the main deck top and 30" and the top and 39" just for extra clearance!

Jeff, those are great comments from experience.  Low is better for the kids, but harder for grandpa.  The risers are a good idea.  Lots of display layouts for the public use similar ideas.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark, I went out and the main table height is 37" With the upper loop being 44".

With that being said I might lower the main table height to 30" and the upper loop to 39".

Hope you guys will chime in!

Oh, the current layout is lower than I thought. Too low and you will have trouble with your reach.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Oh, the current layout is lower than I thought. Too low and you will have trouble with your reach.

I agree, but the way it sits now if I want to reach something in the back of the narrow area, I still have to get the stepstool, or my belly will surely crush something! LOL I was thinking with this new layout I am going to concentrate on doing mostly scenery. Sure, I still want to run a lot of trains, but I want it to look good and interesting like many others!

Since were no longer thinking about moving I want to make this my little masterpiece in our little world!

So, I was able to get the track lowered to 30" and 39". But I can't figure out how to lower the tabletop! LOL so in 3D you don't even see track! LOL

We used 44” and got several benches from Lowe’s that the kids stand/stood on. A rolling stool worked perfectly for me and wiring was relatively easy. There is a lot of it.

Three  years later, the grandkids are tall enough to see the first level and run trains by themselves. One can see level 2, the ten year old uses the bench. And I am 74 with two knee replacements in three years and can still roll underneath.

How about designing the layout so that legs can be adjusted as the grandkids  get taller. Bet you will be glad that you did so.

Mike, you might not want this version, and that’s okay, but I figured I’d post it anyway. I checked the flex track curves and they seem to be okay. One curve appears to be very slightly tighter than O-54, but adjustments will be needed during the build anyway, so I was mainly just checking to see if any were way off. If you build this, just be sure you do a lot of planning so you don’t over-bend and get curves tighter than O-54. I’m not sure which is easier, bending flex and cutting sectional curves.

I also moved the grade starting point after the entry gap. The numbers along the top show the percentages at those points if you decide to move the end point more toward the right to get closer to 2%. Mind you I think 3% is okay, just make sure to you consider easements at both ends for smooth running.

I also change some if the red tracks through the bottom loop to eliminate the very small fitter near the switch. I placed 30” tracks across the entry gap and changed the trash’s leading up to them I assume you’ll add a lift-out of lift-up, maybe a bridge, across the gap. The MTH dual bridge is 30”, so that’s why I chose 30”.

I also squared off the baseboard so you’ll have better access to the tracks on the left without need a pop-out. If you want more landscaping area, you can simply put a pop-out panel to fill some of that space. I did the same on the lower section to add landscaping space without hindering access.

I saw your comment about height, so I used the Height tool to lower everything 10”.

Thanks Dave that looks great! I do plan on moving my double bridge over to the section where the blue is. I like the idea of just putting in a lift out section for scenery! I am planning on trying to do that for part of the upper loop.

Again thank you for all your help!

In that case, Mike, we'd better make sure the tracks across the gap have the right clearance for the bridge. I forgot which bridge you have, but I suspect the clearance is 4.5???

Mike, I was wondering about the bridge.  Excellent location!!

Hi Its an Atlas truss bridge. Same as the one Mark is using! I will have to go out and measure what it should be after dinner, unless Mark chimes sooner!

Here you go Dave!

The scale-sized double-track bridge is 40.5 inches long, 10 inches wide, and 10 inches tall. The tracks are spaced 4.5 inches apart, center to center; vertical clearance for rolling stock is 6.75 inches measured from the tops of the railheads. The railheads are 1.625 inches above the bottom surface of the deck. So the largest O gauge steamers should roll right on through – but you dreaming Standard gauge guys … well, keep on dreaming.

Right from Atlas!

Dave and Mike, if you are talking about the track spacing center rail to center rail, yes it is 4 1/2"

Here's the latest version with the bridge. I had to expand the gap platform to 40" and I added the removable platform for landscaping that can be removed for access. The grade changed a bit and added 1% to a couple of places for the end.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Here's the latest version with the bridge. I had to expand the gap platform to 40" and I added the removable platform for landscaping that can be removed for access. The grade changed a bit and added 1% to a couple of places for the end.

That's pretty neat Dave. Are the sidings really elevated? If the bridge is a lift out it may be possible to do a 2-inch foam lift out that starts at the bridge. I guess that depends on what scenery mike has planned for that area.

Sorry about the image, Dave, it’s fixed.

Anyway, the green spurs are elevated, as is the reversing loop. I just haven’t added decking for the loop. That way Mike can see what’s below that will ultimately get covered.

And, yes, that entire side of the entry could be a series of lift-outs. I thought about adding them, but figured Mike would get the idea from the one I did add. I know he’s concerned about landscaping space vs track.