Post War ZW Questions

I'd say your voltmeter is faulty or you may be using it  wrong. What kind of meter

is it?

Al Whiting

"Cheapness" isn't an issue.  I use cheap meters for uises that could be desructive.

Do you have a bulb you can put across the terminals, one lead to U & the other to each of the A-D terminals in turn?  If bulb lights, meter is bad or you're misreading it.

Also try setting one lever to about 6 volts and the other all the way up, and see if you can get a reading between terminals A & D--should be about 12-14 volts.  If you can't get a reading from A-D & U, but do get between A&D, the internal breaker needs to be replaced. 

RJR, thanks for the help and ideas.  I have good and bad news.  First the bad.  My meter must just be dopey as it reads straight 120 house voltage but still nothing from the ZW or RTR MTH Z controller and power pack.  

The good and bad news on the ZW is that I did the light bulb test with a passenger car and on channels A,B, & C all is well. However, channel D is a no go.  I suppose I will open up the transformer and do some further investigation but I need to figure out why my meter doesn't read the voltage coming out and get a meter that will.

The great thing is that for now I can save some dough and use the ZW to power up the TIU.  Since I am only running one carpet line at the moment (albeit very long), the ZW should serve me well.  I plan on a little expansion soon adding some more track, probably 30-40 feet but still keeping one line.

TexasSP:  Channel D is controlled by the right hand lever.  The lever moves a long finder across the secondary windings.  AT the end of the finger is a carbon roller that rolls across the windings.  If this roller wears down or breaks, the bracket that holds the roller starts to cut through the windings, which is not economically feasible to repair.  Check to make sure that the roller is intact (it is replaceable & is available), that there is enough tension on the finger that the roller makes contact with the windings, and that all connections from the finger to the D terminal are intact.  The breaker is in the U circuit, so shouldn't be a problem.

You didn't indicate if you did the test I suggested, setting A at about 6 volts and D full up, to see if the bulb lights between A & D.  Also try AorB & C, and C to D.

Sorry, I did the other test too, and again my meter only read .18 or so vac I believe.

I will take a look inside as suggested and check the roller.

Sorry, I did the other test too, and again my meter only read .18 or so vac I believe.

It sounds as if your meter may be set to an incorrect AC voltage scale and is displaying voltage divided by 100.

Texas, try the "other test" with a bulb rather than a meter.

Barry, probably something to that nature.  Unfortunately, my really nice 600 dollar fluke meter was stolen some years ago.  Being that didn't really need that type meter again and the price was so expensive, I never replaced it.  The current meter is an off the shelf make do type I got from one of the big box home improvement stores, although memory escapes which one.  It is very limited in changing it's settings.

RJR, I will do the same with the bulb.  I am also not getting power to the red side bulb on the ZW but the bulb is good, I checked that out.  Something else to investigate.  

I am in no rush though.  Between reading Barry's book, getting this ZW properly working, and deciding on how and where to set it all up it will be another week before I unbox the DCS system and start wiring it in.  Even though it is only on a Carpet Central layout at this point, I want it to be right and clean.

Meanwhile me and my boys are having fun running in conventional.  The new PS3 Premier SD70Ace is keeping them quite interested with all it's little sounds and shear size.

As irritated as I am at Lionel for the garbage I put up with as a kid in the 80's, having a classic piece of Lionel history like the ZW powering my layout in some degree is exciting.  Train and non train people alike seem to get a kick out of that beast.

The sad thing is, I have had this unit for over 25 years.  As a kid, we used other units to power my layout thinking this wouldn't do it for whatever reason. It originally belonged to my great uncle, who is no longer living.  So in turn, it also gets to be used in memory of him, along with some other PW goodies.

TaxasSP:  The red bulb should only light when the circuit breaker opens.  As a separate subject, the old ZW breakers are lousy and may or may not work.  Even when running conventional, I suggest putting a fuse or external breaker in the feeds.

I would not use the D handle until I checked the transformer internally.  If the roller I mentioned is shot, you'll permanently damage the ZW.  The ZW is a fine transformer, except for the breaker, and is great with DCS.  As far as I am converned, only the MTH Z4000 is better (and even that oinly has two controllable outputs.

When you checked the "D" post, did you try a couple of different "U" posts?

The four "U" posts are all tied together by a metal bar inside the transformer. It is very common for some of the posts to break away from the bar. Sometimes they will look like they are still attached, but have a break in a hidden spot.

I've serviced transformers with three out of four terminals broken off.

The wire / ring lug attached to the "D" post could also be broken off, but that is a less common problem.

A number of different model Lionel transformers commonly have similar problems.

You're very right, CW, regarding the U posts.  I've had that happen several times.  That's one reason I suggested he try lighting the bulb among various combinations of the A-D posts before opening the transformer, to help pin down the problem.

CW, thank you for the feedback.  I will do this also.

RJR, again thank you for the further information.  This is all great help.

The ZW is excellent for DCS. I've never had a problem they just keep on going and going. They will probably outlast the trains we run them with. 

Make sure you get a 10 amp fuse between the ZW and your TIU.  Do not hook up without the fuse.  I blew a fuse a few times already.  The other day I did not realize I had a derailed car shorting out the track and popped three fuses before noticing I had the block to my yard line powered up.  The other time I turned on power not realizing I had a set of pliers sitting on the track.  You get busy and miss things befowe powering up, the fuse protection is invaluable.

One other thought. Pop the cover and take a look at the rollers.  Are they there?  Are they getting small? Are they frozen? Is the upper making contact with the lower roller?

Well some good news after opening her up. I checked all the rollers, and the thing looks hardly used. There is some indication the rollers have moved across the transformer by the darkened areas. However, after checking everything and screwing the cover back on, D is now putting out power equivalent to the rest. All I can tell is that possibly the roller for D was not making good contact.

I do have a little buzzing from D when at full voltage, but that goes away if I apply power to A, B, or C.  I intend to open it up and check again.  

TMack, thank you for the advice on the fuse, I will definitely get that.  Is there a specific one you recommend or just any 10 amp fuse?

So other than not aesthetically looking brand new, my ZW appears to but working on all cylinders.

I am happy I now don't need to drop 400 on a Z4000.  Money that can be used elsewhere.

TexasSP:  Those fuses T MAck shows are fine.  Resettable breakers are better--cheaper in loing run.  You can get them on internet for under $10 by searching around.  I would put one in each wire going to any of posts A-D. 

The buzzing when you put the D handle up is bothersome.  Usually it indicates there is a heavy load.  Is there anything connected to the D post?  If not, I'd be inclined tp open the tranformer up again and make sure that the wire from that finger to the D post is not shorting.  This includes checking the whistel rectifier, which is in the circuit.  I am trying to attach a ZW iinternal wiring document.

Thank you very much for the attachment, that will be helpful for sure.  Thanks TMack, that is what I figured on the fused, just wanted to be sure.

I will shoot some pictures later of the internals to get impressions from ya'll on the state of everything from the visual perspective.

TexasSP:  I use my ZW that I have had since 1960 and prefer the fuses over the breakers.  The AGC fuses will blow faster than a breaker will trip.  The fuses are cheap protection compared to the cost of a TIU.

It's more than the TIU.  The internal postwar ZW breaker is inadequate to protect even the ZW, and so there is a fire hazard, both within the ZW and out on the layout.

If you think fuses are quick acting, check the fuse blow times chart on the Bussman fise website. 

I will put the fuses inline on mine unless someone has a better suggestion.  I will also have the TIU and ZW plugged into a surge suppressor as well.  Being as I have a carpet empire right now for my sons and myself, I am going to build a small cabinet for the units to keep everything clean and tidy with the TIU placed inside of the cabinet along with any other devices and the ZW mounted on top.  For good measure I will probably also add intake and exhaust fans on the cabinet to allow adequate airflow for the TIU.  I don't know what kind of heat they generate at this point but better safe than sorry.

TexasSP,

   I use the 10 Amp breakers and have never had one problem with them and all I need to do is pull the handles down and reset the breaker if anything unexpected happens on my layout.  I played with the fuses when I 1st set up my layout, and found it much more convient to use the 10 Amp breakers.

Also I mount my DCS TIU on top of my control desk, in the open air where it can not over heat.  The DCS TIU really does not need a fan when mounted in an open space.  My AIU is mounted under the layout after set up. 

PCRR/Dave

Problem with fuses is that they are expensive in the long run, as you'll blow one on any derailment.  Google around and you should be able to get 5, 7.5, or 10 amp pish-button reset breakers for under $10.  On my ZW outputs, I have both fuses and breakers, for redundancy.

TIU generates little heat.  If in a cabinet, I would leave vent holes, but wouldn't bother with fans.  If you havew multiple TIUs, don't stack them vertically; my experience is that they then interfere with each other.

Well, I like the breaker idea when put in that perspective so for the price of less than 5 bucks each, I will go that route.

Main reason for the closed cabinet is the keep out little fingers of my curious 2 year old.  The less curious little things his eyes see the better.  The 6 year old doesn't have that issue.  If just having ventilation should be enough, I can go that route.  I am thinking the cabinet will be about 3' tall by 18" wide by 12" deep.  I may increase that width to 24" though.  

TexasSP,

   Don't shut off the visual contact to much, this O Gauge train hobby opened interest doors for me as a child, that spurred an incredible engineering career.  Many fail to understand what a childs immagination can eventually lead too. 

I do understand the child safety aspect also. 

PCRR/Dave

Our O Gauge Train Hobby leads to incredible Immaginations & big time Engineering.

My Grandfather expanding my engineering immagination with the O Gauge train hobby, I was 2 years old at the time.

Scott's odds-n-ends has a four channel 10amp, 15amp, and 20amp resettable breakers for $30.00. This is nice that there all together so you have all four channels at your fingertips. They also have single breakers for $8.00. 

My shutting out is just wandering fingers in the electronics, plus I want a nice clean look.  I used to wire cellular sites for AT&T and others so I am pretty picky in that department.

This little one at 2 is too inquisitive to hold back too much.  He already has a pretty good mechanical mind and figures out how to get into things quite well.  Part of the reason for me giving up HO and most of my RC hobby is for the enjoyment my sons and I will have together.

TexasSP,

   Sounds like you have a 2 year old like I was, teach him well and have fun doing it, some of my most cherished memories of my Father and Grandfather are surrounded by our O Gauge hobby. 

Liam,

   I use the 10 Amp Scott resettable breakers on my layout, they were a lot less in cost when I purchased them however.

PCRR/Dave 

My kids are what is making this so much fun.  They are what got me back into O gauge myself.  The initial MTH Daylight set was purchased for my 6 year old in 2008.  I added track to it but that was about it.

After moving away from HO for many reasons, and further exploring O again, I have gone deep.  I don't ever see myself going back to HO.  I may possibly do a small N layout one day, but that would be it.  What I like about O with kids is the size and the fact that even on the high end engines, the tend to be made well enough that they don't break easily.  Even G scale doesn't have this due to the extensive use of plastic where O uses metal.

TexasSP,

I am pretty much in the same boat.  The HO never sustained or got off the ground.  Just too temperamental and younger with a younger family made it a bigger challenge.  Sure there are probably plenty of HO guys that can attest to great running HO layouts, but for my environment and my kids, O Gauge has been pretty much idiot proof.  We really have not encountered any hurdles or obstacles that have stopped us from running trains.  We don't have derail events when running trains either. We just turn them on and they go.  I burned up an e-unit on a diesel I bought two years ago due to the wheels overloaded with carpet and burned up a smoke unit out of stupidity, but other than that it all works, works without much incident and so far repairs have been simple - few and far between.  I have bought some non working items and got them up to fully restored operational condition including a coal loader.

The other thing I think that has made the trains more of a reality, even though they are smaller layouts at my house 6x10 and now my 6x12, there is a lot to look at on these two layouts,  the roughly 1:48 size is easier for people to see stuff.

TexasSP & TMack,

   Enjoy your children and your train hobby together,  my girl is 35 years old now, and has no interest in the hobby, and I have no grandchilren either.  My trains have

given me a life time of great family memories, I hope they do the same for you.

PCRR/Dave 

TMack, I got a real kick out of the video in your signature.

Pine Creek, will definitely enjoy this time, hard not to.

As for the ZW, I looked through it again and can't find any obvious issues.  Here are some pics I took:

I plan on picking up some birch plywood in the next couple of days as to build my cabinet.

The bottom Roller looks like it is pretty worn down.  I just picked up a set and will replace all 4 on my ZW,  I just have to figure out how I will press the rivet.

In the photo, the arm on the "C" roller looks to be bent.  Does it hit the "D" arm?  Has it been so hot that it has lost it's spring tension?  The arms are phosphor bronze, they should have a copper color.  If it looks blue, it may have been overheated.  If the arms have been overheated and have lost there spring tension they may not keep the rollers tight against the transformer turns and they might hit the other arm.  Replacements arms can be found from parts dealers or on the bay.

When you say "press the rivet," I don't know if you mean in or out.  To remove it, I supported arm and drilled the rivet.  Flattening the new rivet head is a job.  Some years ago I bought a set, through the internet or maybe an OGR ad, of rivet tools.  He had heads made that fit on the end of a General Tools indenting tool.  I also have a die that fit into a vice.  I might be possible mto use the point of a 10d or larger nail, if you can get adequate support for the arm.

Be sure to contain the "sawdust" from the dremel cutting.

Truthfully, I just cover the core with a rag and then blow the "dust" out with an air compressor, it's never been a problem.  I guess there's always a first time.

I'll add to the "the B and C rollers look small and need replacement" idea.

I took the arm off of mine to replace the roller....lol...don't do that! Take a rag or old T shirt and cover the unit up around the arm your working on and use a dremel to grind off the back of the rivet peen, use a small nail or pin to push it thru{have an hand or magnet ready to catch it!} and put in the new roller and rivet. I used 2 different sized phillips screw drivers to flange out the rivet peen so it stays in...push in and twist back and forth - small driver 1st, then a larger one to widen the peen even more- you'll find the pin to be a tad sloppy in the arm's holes when not peened.

I found my 4 roller set with rivets on ebay for $3 shipped...there's other sources too at authorized lionel repair shops.

My whistle/horn switch is touchy on the A side and doesn't work on the D side...funny thing- A side the whistle/horn slows the train down-but works...D side it speeds the train up but no horn/whistle...I need to do the stud diode replacement thing!  

I cut the rivet in the middle between the ears of the arm, much easier to avoid chopping up the arm that way.  I never take the arms out to replace the rollers, that takes a LOT longer.