When did MTH go from proto 1 to proto2? thanks
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2000
It took them a couple catalogs. I seem to remember looking in a couple that had both PS-1 and PS-2 locomotives in it. But it was around 2000.
Thanks guys
The reason I asked is that on various internet sites (Ebay, specifically), there are some engines that pique my interest. Unfortunately, the listing doesn't mention which version of Proto sound the engine has. This will help a lot.
Thanks
Take the item number and plug it into the MTH site. You can get the information. Usually it will say Protosounds or Protosounds2. Protosounds picked up the name PS1 here on the forum. Buying on Fleabay is a roll of the dice. Be very careful. Sometimes the right price will not end up your best deal. The best place to buy good trains is on the OGR Forum.
Again be careful. I bought an F59PHI via eBay. The MTH website said it was a PS2 engine but what I got was a PS1. Apparently made during the transition period.
Larry
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Take the item number and plug it into the MTH site. You can get the information.
Very good advice, here. Thats really the best way to find out what version is installed. Personally, I would only buy rolling stock, or buildings from the bay, not loco's. You just never know how they've been treated before selling, or if they work at all. Especially beware of "not tested" in the listing when buying a loco off the bay.
"PS-1" was not printed on MTH boxes. As Marty posted, "PS-1" was coined here on the Forum to identify those locomotives after PS-2 was introduced. "PS-1" boxes are printed "ProtoSounds by QSI [QSIndustries] ," followed by the QSI black-and white rectangle with a yellow lightning bolt.
PS-1 and ProtoSounds are conventional systems designed for MTH by QSI. They are designed for L.E.O.S. [Lionel Electrical Operating Standards] - postwar transformers that produce "pure" or "full" sine wave AC. "Chopped" sine wave AC produced by modern transformers will damage or fry the circuit boards, even if a locomotive runs at first.
If a PS-1 or ProtoSounds locomotive hesitates or stalls when a Direction control is tripped, turn off the voltage and take the locomotive off the track.
ReadingFan posted:"...PS-1 and ProtoSounds are conventional systems designed for MTH by QSI. They are designed for L.E.O.S. [Lionel Electrical Operating Standards] - postwar transformers that produce "pure" or "full" sine wave AC. "Chopped" sine wave AC produced by modern transformers will damage or fry the circuit boards, even if a locomotive runs at first...."
Are Lionel's CW-80 and CW-40 transformers pure/full sine wave AC or chopped sine wave AC? What about MTH's Z-4000? Are those three transformers safe to use with Protosound engines without risking damage to protosound locomotives' circuit boards?
The Z4000, although not pure, is a sine wave. It can be used to power QSI equipped locomotives.
As mentioned, the Z4000 can be classified as a 'pure sine wave' transformer, although that is not technically true. It is good enough not to matter here. The CW-40 and CW-80 are what we call chopped wave transformers here on the forum. The list of products that put out this sort of non-pure, chopped sine wave also includes the GW-180, ZW-C, ZW-L, the Z-Controller for Z500/750/1000 MTH transformers, TMCC PowerMasters, Legacy PowerMasters, and to the best of my knowledge TPC 300/400's and the variable channels on the DCS TIU. You can also include any other brand product that has a controller that is a separate unit that a cord from a transformer plugs into as being very likely to produce this non-pure wave.
As a side question, has it been confirmed that running Protosound engines with chopped wave transformers can damage them, or is it simply the case that they will not operate correctly because they can not be put into reset and/or the electronics can not properly read the track voltage. I would think they would simply sit there as if full track power were applied and/or play sounds as if traveling at full speed at all times.
JGL
It does not physically damage them. They just do not operate correctly. Battery issues do not damage them either, though it causes software glitch, that can be repaired, just requires special chips from MTH.
G
Thanks for the good info and apologies for being slow to respond. Living here in the boonies is a wonderful thing but there are drawbacks - satellite internet, for example. By the time I got home last night it was after dark (took 2 hours to drive the final 15 miles through mud, snow and muck). This morning, though, after coffee I went out and scooped about 10 inches of white stuff off the dish and now I'm good to go again, at least for awhile.
Marty, I do buy off the forum (in fact am now awaiting an item) but like to use Ebay for comparison shopping, if that makes any sense. A lot of the forum sponsors are also present on Ebay and I do buy from them, the latest being Mario's. I've only been burned once, a set of Williams Rio Grande Madison style cars that look like they're brand new but some of the trucks/wheels are shot. I've yet to find replacements. I still haven't figured out what the previous owner did to them to put them in such a lousy condition.
My operating, if you want to call it that, is probably different than most. My trains run on a layout about 7 feet above the floor level in a store on top of a series of freezers and coolers. Folks can come in, push a button and it runs for about 5 minutes. I may not even see the things for several days at a time so dependability is the primary concern. The train must run forward only and all the fine details and realistic operating features are of little concern. Every two weeks I swap out the old train set for a newly serviced one. In this environment I think you can understand why buying an engine that the smoke doesn't work or fans don't rotate really isn't important. Most of the folks that run the train wouldn't know a FEF from an FA, but they still watch em' run and smile. 
In fact, the only time I run trains at home is during Christmas season under the tree. I guess you could say that it's my way of promoting the hobby.
Anyway, that's the reason I occasionally ask the odd question - trying to determine if a possible purchase will run reliably under those conditions. By the way, do you think a Lionchief+ would fill the bill? Kind of like the looks of some of those but don't know that much about them.
TRIPLEO, we are glad to answer your questions and help run your layout for folks. We need to attract the public, and an operating layout is the best way. Keep your questions coming!
Lionchief Plus offers the best of both worlds. Locomotives can be run by a transformer or by a remote. Recently, Lionel announced a new Lionchief Universal Remote that will run up to 3 Lionchief Plus "O" Gauge or S Gauge locomotives.
QSI / ProtoSounds / PS-1 systems have not been produced since MTH introduced DCS. Replacement circuit boards are getting scarce. It is best to err on the side of caution and run them only with "pure" sine wave AC transformers.
A Z-4000 was made for QSI / Protosounds / PS-1 systems. A PROGRAM button on each side accesses different features without turning track voltage up and down and keeping track of "clicks" and "clanks."
My question seems to fit with this topic.
I am just getting back in trains and running conventional.
I just bought a used MTH 30-2253-1 Soo Line RS27 Diesel Locomotive w/PS 2.0 LN. My first non Lionel engine
I am powering it with a Lionel CW80. I am using two Lionel 6-5906 sound activate buttons to make the horn and bell work.
So far I can get the horn and bell to work, but the engine just sits there in neutral not moving when I try either the direction control on the transformer or turn the power on / off/ on. It seems to be locked into neutral. Crew talk works. I have tried to do a Reset to Factory Default. When attempting the reset I hear the horn honk and the bell turn on and off but do not get the two horn blasts that show the engine has made the change.
Will myRube Goldberg setup work with this engine? Is it me or do I have problems with the engine or need a different transformer ?
The timing of the resets is pretty tight, and it may be having an issue with the CW-80. I'd suggest trying another transformer.
Thanks
I'll try a ZW and see what happens
I couldn't get any of my ps 1 engines to run using a Lionel CW80 transformer. I bought an MTH Z1000 and used it. They ran just fine. If you have the engine's owner's manual, in back few pages, it lists the compatible transformers.
Larry
Thanks Larry
I have a ZW and it is listed as comparable in the owners manual, but I won't have a chance to try it until Monday
You have two potential issues. Engine not working with CW-80 chopped wave, and dead battery for conventional ops. G
You can tell if the locomotive is lock in neutral or not by the sounds it makes when you push the direction button. If after pushing the direction button you hear the startup double bell ding, it needs a battery or there is an issue with the power. When locked in a direction, or neutral, you will not get startup sounds or the bell ding with power up.
BTW, I run all my PS-1 locomotives with the CW-80 and ZW-C and never had any issues. I've even programmed them with the CW-80. The biggest thing is to make sure the track voltage is below 10V before pushing teh direction button, and they will cycle into forward. It you always get a horn sound, try putting a lighted car on teh track with the locomotive to quiet it.
GGG was right on about the battery. I opened the unit up and the negative terminal on the Radio Shack rechargeable battery was corroded right off the battery. ( I will try to attach a picture )
The engine is new to me. I just bought it as used and I have no history on it.
I need to replace the battery clip and get a new battery.
I’m not sure what exact battery to use because its not shown in the owners manual.
I don’t have a local train shop so I will have to order it.
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ReadingFan posted:"PS-1" was not printed on MTH boxes. As Marty posted, "PS-1" was coined here on the Forum to identify those locomotives after PS-2 was introduced. "PS-1" boxes are printed "ProtoSounds by QSI [QSIndustries] ," followed by the QSI black-and white rectangle with a yellow lightning bolt.
PS-1 and ProtoSounds are conventional systems designed for MTH by QSI. They are designed for L.E.O.S. [Lionel Electrical Operating Standards] - postwar transformers that produce "pure" or "full" sine wave AC. "Chopped" sine wave AC produced by modern transformers will damage or fry the circuit boards, even if a locomotive runs at first.
If a PS-1 or ProtoSounds locomotive hesitates or stalls when a Direction control is tripped, turn off the voltage and take the locomotive off the track.
Exactly correct that NO MTH boxes were printed and/or identified as "PS-1/Proto Sound 1." But there was a revised to the original MTH QSI proto Sound that got the colloquial (Toy train) moniker of Proto Sound-1. As you said the original PS was designed from/with the old gold standard of transformers such as the ZW with a pure sine wave. But since the old transformers were no longer made, could not get UL approval New modern power supplies were designed and built. These were not quite pure sine wave. As I seem to recall even the first MTH Z's (design was called Z2000 or Z25000 did not work. So QSI did some redesign to work with these modern power supplies.
I know because I had a SD45 and an AS616 made in mid 90's that run perfectly well with my KW. When my KW needed new rollers etc. bought the then New MRC Dual Power 027 270 Watt power supply with tethered control(s). These two engines would just set there and hum. It was then I saw ads in both major O toy train mags by QSI that they had a fix. Contacted them and sent the SD45 to them as directed. Ran perfect after revision with MRC power supply. It was not till later that I decided to upgrade the AS616. This time QSI said only had to send boards instead of engine. Did so, it also ran perfect with MRC power supply. It was these versions of Proto Sound that got the moniker of PS-1.
Ron
This is the battery you need:
And you can buy it right from MTH on that link. And they last about 5 years. So if you are going to have the locomotive, and not upgrade it, for a long while you might want to look at a BCR instead.
You can also get the same capability for a lot less money, how about $3.79/ea?
gunrunnerjohn posted:You can also get the same capability for a lot less money, how about $3.79/ea?
I bought a number of Tenergy Centura from Amazon, along with a Tenergy Dual Charger. I don't know what the difference is between Premium and Centura.
Premium has more capacity, but the low self discharge models are more desirable IMO for this use.
MAGIC !!! I'm running a ZW transformer and replaced the battery and the engine works like a charm. I did not even have to do a reset.
Thanks to all of you for your advice. I had been worried that I bought a lemon, but now I am very pleased with the way the engine operates. I have only had older conventional Lionel engines before this.
Guys, here is a point of interest. PS-1 (Protosounds) top boards and bottom boards are still stocked at MTH. The C5 board is AE-4500001 and the P4 board is AD-4500001. Back a few years ago when upgrades were in full swing, those of us who were involved built up a good supply of boards. I always priced the job based on me keeping the old boards if they tested as good working boards.
I am sitting on 57 sets of PS-1 boards and they have been getting used up. Lately, people are coming out of the woodwork wanting to get PS-1 locomotives repaired. PS-1 was a good system. Today if you can live without command, it is still a good system.
I took a tinplate 400E first issue lifted above track to run in place. I was going to use Alexa to turn on off and operate. However I discovered for some reason the train does not change direction unless using the throttle lever. If using the direction button or Alexa to go on off on just leaves engine in neutral. I have a fresh 9v battery installed. Also tried at different voltages. When I changed battery I must have pinched a wire and bell and whistle worked when I changed directions. What wires could I use off the ps1 board to jump to track so the bell and whistle will work when I change direction?
your train will change direction every time you power up and down as the E unit cycles the switching gear inside the E unit. if you want to use Alexa just move the E unit lever so the e unit cant be changed and then every time u turn transformer on or off or power down transformer and power on again it will continue in forward because u locked it in forward. that's the easiest way to use Alexa for what you want! ok
Alan
LK posted:I took a tinplate 400E first issue lifted above track to run in place. I was going to use Alexa to turn on off and operate. However I discovered for some reason the train does not change direction unless using the throttle lever. If using the direction button or Alexa to go on off on just leaves engine in neutral.
Not sure if I’m understanding your question correctly.
The normal sequencing for the modern electronic reversing unit is forward-neutral-reverse-neutral-forward. So if the engine is moving forward and you hit the direction button, you change to the neutral state (with the power on). When you hit the direction button again, the engine shifts to reverse. So to change direction, you have to hit the direction button twice, leaving about a second between each push to give the direction button a chance to bring the transformer voltage to zero.
LK posted:I took a tinplate 400E first issue lifted above track to run in place. I was going to use Alexa to turn on off and operate. However I discovered for some reason the train does not change direction unless using the throttle lever. If using the direction button or Alexa to go on off on just leaves engine in neutral. I have a fresh 9v battery installed. Also tried at different voltages. When I changed battery I must have pinched a wire and bell and whistle worked when I changed directions. What wires could I use off the ps1 board to jump to track so the bell and whistle will work when I change direction?
If this is a Proto Sound and/or a Proto Sound 1 engine voltage MUST be less than 10 V AC (and more than 8V AC to come out of "RESET" mode. So so if you bring the voltage up and cycle it out of "Reset", bring voltage above 10 V and interrupt power too long the unit will return to "Reset" mode and NOT come out until 10V or less. But if you only interrupt momentarily (at above 10V) the unit will advance to next mode.
Ron
I will double check with voltage meter but as I said I realized voltage would matter but I forgot the exact voltage that happened.
This unit starts in neutral-F-N-R.
Oh and yea I’m using an old postwar Lionel transformer.
Yes I realized time spacing. Tried tapping and 1/2 second, 1sec , 2sec
Works perfectly with throttle.
Assuming I get past this problem. Any ideas for wiring for whistle and bell to operate when changing direction?
Exactly which “old postwar Lionel transformer”?
