Pull out the MPC!

dogdoc and others...I have to say, despite many opinions to the contrary, that MPC remains,esp for the small operator, a fantastic buy.  I just left a train show in Plano Tx and as you can imaging there was lots of MPC for sale.  When you can get box cars (new in box) for $15-20, switcher locomotives also nearly new for $75 and I got a really neat chemical tank car ("White Pass") with die cast frame and fully sprung die cast trucks for $10.  I tell you that you can't touch these prices with the modern stuff.  OK its not as prototypical and it doesn't make noises or talk and yea you have to put up with the "e" unit but hey...these are hobby items.  Anyway I like this stuff because it makes for reasonable cost hobby fun.

Don

dogdoc - I'm with you. This post has me digging out my MPC stuff for a Sunday after Church run session.

Don't forget the colorful cabooses offered by MPC.

View from my desk.

This thread got me thinking... I knew I had this (a 6-18003 4-8-4... inherited from my mother from whom I got my love of trains!!!), but it hasn’t seen the light of day in over 30 years. And even at that, it has probably only seen, at most, 30 minutes on the tracks. So off I went digging and found it. According to the label on the end of the box, it has magne traction, the infamous electronic mighty sound of steam, and, long before modern times, “steam emissions from the steam chest” My understanding is that the DL&W referred to them as Poconos, not Northerns - and living in the Poconos for the last 25 years, it is so appropriate!!!

Apples55

run that engine! If I had one from my mom, it would be my treasured !

I don't know Pocono's or Northern's, but that is a beautiful engine.  The MPC era was fine for me, aside from the nefarious Sound of Steam.  Those were the years when we dusted off our post-war trains and rebuilt the train table.  My wife purchased FARR #3 (late 90's) and gave it to me for Christmas, it came with a Berkshire #3100 in dark green with Elephant Ears (?) and a nice set of cars.  Last year I picked up several other MPC engines because as others have said, the prices are good.  I found another  #3100 GN with box; a #6200 PRR Turbine (no box), a #8210 "Joshua Cowen" Hudson with box; and the #8006 "Silver Shadow" Atlantic Coast Line Hudson without a box.  What I like about these engines is that they are colorful, most are two-tone, have a touch of detail and run great.  You can't go wrong it if runs and the price is right.  Except for the silly noise.  So, the Northern is 4-8-4, and the Berk is 2-8-4, is that about right?

Hi Jim

Thanks.  There are doubles and triples of some of them.  I think I have a whole case of the NKP's.  The CP was a recent addition.  The ICG I think came out of the Rocky Mountain set.  There are a few cars I missed in the day that I have been looking for.  Right now, I am waiting on delivery of my first couple prewar large 800 series cars.

I think of all the cars, I have more boxcars and reefers than anything.  Going to take a big yard to hold all of those cars.  I also have painted a few cars over the years. 

Harold

@Apples55 posted:

This thread got me thinking... I knew I had this (a 6-18003 4-8-4... inherited from my mother from whom I got my love of trains!!!), but it hasn’t seen the light of day in over 30 years. And even at that, it has probably only seen, at most, 30 minutes on the tracks. So off I went digging and found it. According to the label on the end of the box, it has magne traction, the infamous electronic mighty sound of steam, and, long before modern times, “steam emissions from the steam chest” My understanding is that the DL&W referred to them as Poconos, not Northerns - and living in the Poconos for the last 25 years, it is so appropriate!!!

That's a beauty Paul, plus a great backstory. Clean it up and run it.

Bob

I have the Rock Island version of that engine.  A good clean and lube and make sure the board in the tender is not loose.  Not sure if they were still using the sticky foam at this time or not.

I blocked the steam chest emission on my engines.  All it ever did for the J and others was blow oil all over the sides.  Kept the rods lubricated.

Time to start collecting DL&W hopper cars.

Paul that's a beauty and one I haven't seen very often if at all.  I think it will fit right in on your layout.  I'm sure there's some Phoebe Snow passenger cars around your place somewhere looking for that engine.

That New York Central passenger train is running at just the right speed.  I've got no idea what mph it scales out at but in my mind it looks right for interurban passenger travel.

Let’s not forget about these…..The Trainmaster’s

Or the other end of the size spectrum….a few motorized units. Always fun to have running around the layout.

I could probably Google this and get some answers, but some of you folks who collect MPC would likely know the answers.

Is the MPC era from the early 1970s to the mid 1980s?

Is top of the line MPC very good, but most of it cheap plastic and not so good?

How does top of the line MPC compare in quality to top of the line post war from the early and mid 1950s?

What are some examples of top of the line MPC, and how much does it cost compared to top of the line post war?

Hi Paul

Here is the Rock Island version of your engine

Arnold...here are a few answers to your questions.  NOTE...some of your questions like "quality" etc depend on your point of view.  I am a simple operator.  Stop,Go, Reverse, lights, smoke, and reliable operation make "quality" to me.  If you are into extensive electronics, crew sounds, special steam effects you won't find them in MPC (after all it stops in 1985).

a.  MPC era...1970-1985

b. I don't agree.  Much of MPC especially the early versions is really later Lionel post war but with "fast angle" wheels that makes the pull load much lower.  Graphics all around are top notch, prototypical dimensions not so much.  Yes there is a lot of plastic but then there is a lot of great molded in detail and the plastic used (at least in my view) seems quite durable.  So, my view, like any product line you sort of get what you pay for.  Lionel in those days made some dc only very cheap trains (sort of follow on to the "Scout" idea) and they were not very good.  But their GP's, larger steamers, early diesels were quite good.

c. The answer to this is sort of "it depends"...remember Lionel in the 1950's was at the peak of its popularity and developed much of its best line...the 736 for example, dual motored F-3's, etc.  MPC took quite awhile to come up to speed and in the early days (say up to 1975) concentrated on the Lionel of the 1960's which was not the same.  I personally think the quest for what may go to quality is over rated.  The MPC I run on my small layout (which is about the same scale as yours) runs great, stops, goes, reverses and runs on and on.  I like the great graphics and the ability to run short trains (can't run long ones anyway).  So to me, that's high quality especially when compared to what I paid for most of it.

d. I really can't answer, MPC did make some really good steamers which are probably top of the line, but they are not my focus. I leave that to others.  I like the diesels, switchers, and freight and passenger cars.  The short passenger cars, equivalent to the Lionel 2400 type post war cars are really great and came in some neat color schemes.  The diesels and trainmasters were very good and came in a large number of liveries.  My humble opinion (ok so not so humble )is that the MPC line sort of matches the Lionel of the late 50's or early 60's except the choice of RR and liveries is much greater and the color schemes available are much better.

Well anyway Arnold, that is my opinion and I am sure you can find those on both parts of the question.  Its really a question of what you want to do and how much you can invest.  I have small level layout , and like to see trains run around.  I can't pull much more than 8 or so freight cars and maybe 5 passenger cars.  I have some "Lion Chief" type engines but that is about as far as I got with non transformer control and normally rely on my ZW.  I like the fancy steam sounds ... but made an inadvertent discovery recently...all those sound effects are in the tender!  So now my MPC steamers (and my Marx steamers) sometimes pull a modern Lionel tender and I get all the steam sounds I want!  I simply cannot invest in some $2000 for a new Lionel top of the line engine and I could not run it anyway. I do have (products of a more cash free youth) a MPC GS-4 and Hudson but they can't run on my layout anyway (radii too small).  I have the MPC Blue Comet that I think of as sort of top of the line and it will run on my layout and I like it but that's about as elaborate as it go.

Best wishes, by the way, I always enjoy your posts and I really liked the series you did on constructing the baseball park.

Don

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Is the MPC era from the early 1970s to the mid 1980s?

Is top of the line MPC very good, but most of it cheap plastic and not so good?

Arnold,

You have the date range pretty much correct:  about 1970 - 1986.

Now, I am going to talk about one of the "cheap" sets and show you why MPC detractors deserve nothing but low-quality, high sulpher coal in their stockings.

First, an over view of a set my grandfather gave me in 1972.  The first train he gave me was Marx (in 1965); this was my first Lionel. I was 8 years old.  It was leftover inventory from the previous year, so far as I can tell, a Double Diesel set,  repacked by either Sears or Lionel, without one of the cars and the B unit and a Wheaties boxcar substituted for a bigger boxcar.  If Grandpa got a box, I never saw it.

(Sorry about the picture quality:  my camera hates looking into a bright light, and I can't extinguish the sun.)

Now, let's look at the engine, a run-of-the-mill 8020 Santa Fe Alco, dime-a-dozen.  This engine has I-have-no-idea how many 100s of hours on it.  The brushes have been replaced once.  Once, when I tossed it into my toybox (yes, I was a kid, and it was a toy), the rear (metal) coupler broke off.  A quick trip to the Service Center (remember when MPC actually maintained the Postwar service Center network, which is more than we can say for today's Lionel) set that problem to rights.  I also had to buy a replacement horn.  There are scratches on the paint and decals, and the luster of the silver suffers from dust.  But this engine runs Every. single. time. I put power to it, and it can haul quite a bit more than its own train.  I cannot say as much for ANY of my TMCC or Legacy engines.

Next, the first car (this train ALWAYS runs in this order simply because this was the order Grandpa set it up ion the first time I saw it).

The 9140 Burlington Gondola is derived from the bigger of the PW gons and has a sharp green paint scheme.  One coupler is a dummy, but the trucks have metal wheels.

The next two cars.

The 9040 Wheaties boxcar is derived from the Scout boxcar and has no working coupler, but it does have metal wheels.  Its paint scheme was General Mills tooting its own horn a bit, but it is certainly colorful!

The PC 9300 Log Dump Car still has its original three logs.  The mechanism works just fine and has survived unbroken.  It has 2 working couplers and metal wheels.  Because of the stripped-down nature of the set, I never had the activating track and had to dump the car manually.  I do still have the plastic tray into which the logs rolled.

The last two:

Knowledgeable collectors' eyes will see that the GN 9011 hopper is a rare car.  About 3 billion of them were made in sky blue, but this much darker, brighter, Royal blue is genuinely rare on this car.  Roland Lavoie labels it "Very rare" and notes a $120 (EXC)/$265 (MNT) value (p 243 of the 1970-1991 Motive Power and Rolling Stock guide).  It is by far the "cheapest" car, with one dummy/one working couplers and plastic wheels.

Finally, the 9061 Santa Fe caboose; again, one of many, many.  I really admired the car when I was a kid because it had end railings and ladders.  It has only one coupler (though it it works).

None of these cars has ever needed any repair.  The wheels--even the plastic ones--are the fast-angle profile, a significant contribution MPC made to the model RRing world.  It came with a blue 4150, 50-watt transformer and a figure eight of track.

Yes, it was cheap.  Some plastic wheels, plastic gears on the engine, 2- position e-unit, many dummy couplers, derived from the near-bottom of the PW line. Only one car sparks any interest among collectors.  The others are literally common as dirt.

But "not so good"?  Oh, my friend:  this set is very, VERY good!   It has given me untold hours of enjoyment, taken all the abuse I have thrown at it nearly without complaint, and it retains most of its vibrant colorfulness and all of its functionality.  No postwar set would have given me any more fun or joy.  No modern (Digital Era) set would have been remotely as trouble-free and reliable.

MPC deserves a much better reputation than PW snobs and later-era electronic junkies have given it.   Long Live MPC!

palallin :  YEA!  I am with you.  See my answers to Arnold, just before your post.  I think that we may have to recall that this a "hobby" which means many things to many different users and that for "hobby" /  TOY trains  MPC is a great supplier at what is today very modest cost.  I can take my $75 MPC GP9 and run it till the brushes disappear  then put it on the shelf and buy another.  I can do this 20 X for the price of one modern Lionel $2000 top of the line diesel. Given that I am 77 and that my current GP9 has been running fine for nearly 50 years, doing this 20X is unlikely to happen. As I posted above, my 8351 Santa Fe Alco A which a the similar vintage as yours, which I just purchased for $40,  runs great 47 years  after manufacture and still pulls my little trains around my simple layout.

Don

Running a store for thirty years means I have a lot of great MPC memories. I also have a lot of great Weaver and MTH memories. At one time I ate this stuff, drank this stuff and slept with it. Trains were my life. I loved it.

Don and Pallalin, I very much enjoyed reading your replies. You both make a great case for MPC, and you educated me about its virtues: economy, reliability, durability, fast angle wheels, good quality plastic, good graphics, etc.

Since I prefer the Lionel Postwar of the early and mid 1950s to the Lionel of the late 1950s and early to mid 1960s, MPC (which has much in common with the later post war), is not that attractive to me. I like the dual motors, metal and heft of the earlier Lionel postwar.

I love the moderately priced modern Lionel including LC+, LC+2.0), MTH Railking PS 1, 2 and 3) including DCS, and some Williams and K Line.

However, I keep a lid on the modern technology because too much technology makes me anxious. For instance, I limit my DCS operations to speed control, horn/whistle, bell, smoke and elecrocoupling, running my MTH PS 2 and 3 like they were LC+ locomotives.

Arnold

One more thing: I try to keep costs under control by purchasing early postwar that is in good working order, not mint, and limit my pricey modern to just a few.

For instance, I have no Visionline and only 1 Legacy. My Legacy is a $750 NY Central 10 wheeler with whistle steam, which is the perfect locomotive for my layout that has features in common with The Put.

I have no plans for purchasing any more Legacy.

Would I love a Visionline steamer that has steam/smoke coming out of every crevice and runs well on 031 curves? Absolutely. But, if I ever get one, it will be my 1 and only Visionline to keep costs under control.

Arnold

Arnold, you are the perfect reason this hobby appeals to many.  There is room "at the inn" for many guests with many preferences.  Thanks for responding and please continue to post on your layout and projects I always enjoy reading them.

Best wishes

Don

Well, this thread has been a wonderful trip down memory lane!!! Thanks for all the kind comments on my Pocono steamer. In keeping with this Forum’s tradition of been full of bad influencers, after clearing a ton of heavy, wet snow earlier, I felt obliged to open up the tender for a look-see (not an easy choice for an admitted Techno-peasant!!!). Fortunately, I found that the sound board was supported by a plastic base, so no problem with disintegrated foam. As a consequence, tomorrow, I will (may the Train Powers-That-Be forgive this unforgivable transgression) disconnect Legacy from my layout (Mea Culpa... Mea Culpa... Mea Maxima Culpa...), and give the Pocono a run through the Poconos!!! Film at 11

I have to agree with those who think that MPC has gotten a bad rap. In my opinion, part of the issue is that we are looking at those golden oldies through the prism of current trains. For those of you who, like me, remember when MPC was the rage, I think you will have to agree that, when they came out, they were really the bees knees (did I just say that???). Remember the vast improvement that the much maligned Electronic Sound of Steam was over the post-way “sounds”??? Were there clunkers amongst the gems??? Of course - but you have to admit, somethings never change!!! I admit that I have been totally taken in by the lure of the new, more detailed, scale offerings, but that doesn’t mean that that I completely reject the trains of my youth. While I have gifted a number of my MPC engines to other who have the need for items which will run on small curves, I still have a number of them that have sentimental value (my first GG1, the Pocono, two sets of F3’s with aluminum passenger cars, etc.). Long live History

I seem to remember a problem with the DL&W and its sister Rock Island Loco. The problem had to do with the motor armature shaft bushings. These were delivered out of tolerance. If I remember correctly this motor is essentially the same as the post war 736 motor. When MPC Lionel re-manufactured the motor they updated it motor with out of spec bushings. I believe replacing these bushings with the original postwar 736 spare part bushings solves the problem. There may be others on the forum that have a better memory on this issue than I. If so, please comment.

Denis

Hi Paul

Glad to hear that someone is going to unplug the electronics  and take over the ship.  The modern control systems are great but there is nothing like being in front of a couple Z's and KW's trying to keep everything moving and under control.  Once the engines make a few rounds and warm up,  everything starts to run good.

I always noticed that the  Pullmore's run better after they are warmed up.  Only have one can motor in the first WM shay and it's never been run.

Harold

@Bob Paris posted:

Beautiful train room and collection. The lighted cabinets are a nice touch.

Bob

Hi Bob

Is that Railrax shelving?.

Yes, it is RailRax

Bob Paris, your train room looks great. Nice work. I love your cabinets.

So far this is my only MPC era engine, the FARR Southern 4501. I had the IHC model as a kid in HO and after moving to O had been hunting for one of these for awhile till it showed up on my 21st birthday. Only other car I have from the set aside from the tender is the caboose, which I intend to repaint to resemble an actual Southern bay window that's parked outside a school near where I live. I do have all 5 of the MPC era Crescent Limited passenger cars though, which make an excellent pairing with 4501. The wreath was just for the holiday show at the Greenhouse.

@joe krasko posted:

Canada only,uncatalogued  OB with English /French inst.

I think those CN units came out about thevdame time as the Daylight SP's.  The SP's had EMD road BB trucks.

Lionel should have made CN SUPERCONTINENTAL and SP DAYLIGHT 2400 sized passenger cars for these.

A blue and yellow VIA Alco Diesel and 2400 set would sell.

And D&H 2400's with those Alco's would be nice.  Odd, because at the time, D&H was running a passenger train for Amtrak with a PA and D&H cars.  Not scale, but would make a nice O27 set.

The 8025 CN Alco is an uncataloged item from 1971. It actually appears in the 1972 Canadian catalog. In 1976 the three piece CN Alco A-B-A set was offered, item numbers 8656, 8657 and 8658.

@ed h posted:

The 8025 CN Alco is an uncataloged item from 1971. It actually appears in the 1972 Canadian catalog. In 1976 the three piece CN Alco A-B-A set was offered, item numbers 8656, 8657 and 8658.

right you are Ed...

My favorite MPC...it took me forever to find the B unit.

John

Palallin - Your 1972 set may be Sears set 1292, as it had just an Alco A unit powered. The rest of the rolling stock matches closely to your set. Keep in mind in the early days of MPC is wasn't uncommon for Lionel to swap out a piece of rolling stock with a different road name. I've attached the 1972 Sears catalog info.

Could be wrong...usually am...My understanding was that the car swapping occurred at the point of sale to accommodate customer whims. LHS's were loath to let a customer walk over rolling stock quibbles. That's why you sometimes have wonky sets.

John

@Don McErlean posted:

dogdoc and others...I have to say, despite many opinions to the contrary, that MPC remains,esp for the small operator, a fantastic buy.  I just left a train show in Plano Tx and as you can imaging there was lots of MPC for sale.  When you can get box cars (new in box) for $15-20, switcher locomotives also nearly new for $75 and I got a really neat chemical tank car ("White Pass") with die cast frame and fully sprung die cast trucks for $10.  I tell you that you can't touch these prices with the modern stuff.  OK its not as prototypical and it doesn't make noises or talk and yea you have to put up with the "e" unit but hey...these are hobby items.  Anyway I like this stuff because it makes for reasonable cost hobby fun.

Don

Agree completely with your assessment. One correction: the White Pass tank cars were cataloged in 2013, a long time after the end of the MPC period, but the mold is the same. Like many of these from the MPC period, this is an 8,000 gallon tank car. A lot of folks don't realize it, but - although they seem compact, they're actually scale in size.

@ed h posted:

Palallin - Your 1972 set may be Sears set 1292, as it had just an Alco A unit powered. The rest of the rolling stock matches closely to your set. Keep in mind in the early days of MPC is wasn't uncommon for Lionel to swap out a piece of rolling stock with a different road name. I've attached the 1972 Sears catalog info.

Interesting!  Thank you for that image, Ed!  I have never been able to find a copy of that year's catalog.  This may indeed be the right one.  Never had any canisters or the uncoupler.  Wish I had the box!

I have seen about a dozen boxed variations of the Double Diesel and the Twin Diesel sets from that early-'70s period.  Obviously, all were made up out of the same limited selection of rolling stock.  Smart use of limited assets to create the highest level of variety possible.

@John Meyncke posted:

Could be wrong...usually am...My understanding was that the car swapping occurred at the point of sale to accommodate customer whims. LHS's were loath to let a customer walk over rolling stock quibbles. That's why you sometimes have wonky sets.

John

I have seen the leftover pickings after store clerks and customers sort through the stock to get what the customers want, and I have no doubt that, sometimes, the leftovers really are slim pickings.

Related:  went to the same Sears store with my grandparents in 1976 in late December to select my train for that year (ended up being my grandfather's last Christmas, and I think he knew it).  Anyway, on the shelves were a few odd cars, some individual track pieces, and a pair of Santa Fe 8351s (I will swear that one of them had a front coupler, but that story is for another day); slim pickings, indeed.  I told Grandpa I would be very happy with the 8351s, but he insisted that I get a full set.  We ended up at JC Pennys with a TYCO Chattanooga Choo-choo.  I will forever be grateful to him for getting me into trains, but I sometimes grouse about the detour into HO interfered with playing with real trains