Re-motoring a postwar 218

The 218's that I have came with magna-traction. I was able to find a good replacement truck on ebay for a decent price. The motors can be swapped out easily enough if you don't want to replace the entire truck.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0...2Fitm%2F323066420982

I did come across this and it looks like what I’m after. I don’t follow how you change the motor when the motor base plate is part of the truck frame and all the parts are tabbed and bent?

You can put a motor designed for a two position e-unit into a locomotive that has a three position e-unit. Just leave one of the two field windings disconnected, and wire like a three position motor.

That written, what is wrong with the original motor?
Most times they can be fixed.

C W Burfle posted:

You can put a motor designed for a two position e-unit into a locomotive that has a three position e-unit. Just leave one of the two field windings disconnected, and wire like a three position motor.

That written, what is wrong with the original motor?
Most times they can be fixed.

It doesn’t like to run in forward. It takes a very high transformer power level 16-18volts to get it to move and then it only creeps off very slow. The longer it runs it will slowly speed up but it never goes as fast as an equivalent voltage in reverse. There is excessive end play in the motor and where it pulls into the thrust bearing to go forward I’m thinking it’s just shot. The engine had lots of hours on it the pickup rollers have big grooves and the wheels on the train set are very grooved. The previous caretaker said it did the same thing running slow in forward with a lot of extra power needed. 

Well I did stumble across the parts lists for Olsen’s for the 218 and figured I’d search the “thrust bearing” part on eBay. 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0...2Fitm%2F401490690349

Well I was under the impression that the thrust bearing was the ball torrington like my 624 but it turns out it’s just a nylon washer. I guess I’ll give that a try before committing this motor unit off to the dead. 

I guess I’ll re-surface the commutator while it’s out and de-grease the motor to see what that nets me. 

Sounds like a good servicing is all it needs - possibly new brushes or brush springs as well as looking into thrust washers. I have a few 218 Alcos, and many other 200 series Alcos and have yet to meet one that I couldn't service the motor. I would definitely look to replace with a like truck that has dual axle magnatraction and a single field for the 3 position e-unit. However, the price may be alittle off putting and so you may actually be better off finding a beat up Alco with the correct power truck and cannibalize it for parts. This could also address your wheel issue if they are deeply grooved.

Pickup rollers (Lionel  2328-95) are generally available from parts suppliers.

bmoran4 posted:

Sounds like a good servicing is all it needs - possibly new brushes or brush springs as well as looking into thrust washers. I have a few 218 Alcos, and many other 200 series Alcos and have yet to meet one that I couldn't service the motor. I would definitely look to replace with a like truck that has dual axle magnatraction and a single field for the 3 position e-unit. However, the price may be alittle off putting and so you may actually be better off finding a beat up Alco with the correct power truck and cannibalize it for parts. This could also address your wheel issue if they are deeply grooved.

Pickup rollers (Lionel  2328-95) are generally available from parts suppliers.

 

Do you have any pictures of a 218 motor disassembled? The thrust washers I bought came in a 4 pack. I’m guessing maybe it uses 2? Or just one on the bottom for ahead running. I’ve done all the other things to it: brushes and e-unit. When I strip it this time I’ll have to get some electric motor degreaser to clean it up and spin it in a dremel to flatten the commutator. 

I’ve been having good luck using tetra gun grease on my other engines and used it after I degreased a bound up 624 I picked up. It’s a white grease but temperature stable over a wide range. 

Yikes! Keep the Dremel away! Some CRC 2-26 with q-tips is all you need to clean the commutator. If it has deep groves, replace the armature.

The Lionel service documents are available online at Olsen's:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm

Navigate to postwar locomotives and look at the 200 series alcos and the 218P pages.

This particular page has an exploded view:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/lc200p11.pdf

When I strip it this time I’ll have to get some electric motor degreaser to clean it up and spin it in a dremel to flatten the commutator

I did that once with a Modern era armature. It was the style that really doesn't have much holding the commutator segments . They broke free and went flying.
However, I doubt that would happen with a postwar armature.

What kind of thrust washers did you get?
the washers for the top and bottom are different.
On a 218 motor top, I think I'd use a 600-129 and a con-8, as shown in the manual.

There was a major redesign on 200 series alco motors. Does yours have a bearing between the armature head and worm? That is the newer style.

Here is a link to the factory service manual pages on your motor:  200 Series Alcos.
I think it covers both styles.

bmoran4 posted:

Yikes! Keep the Dremel away! Some CRC 2-26 with q-tips is all you need to clean the commutator. If it has deep groves, replace the armature.

The Lionel service documents are available online at Olsen's:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm

Navigate to postwar locomotives and look at the 200 series alcos and the 218P pages.

It’s pretty badly grooved. It needs to be cut with Emory paper on a backer. I mean using the dremel to turn it. It won’t fit in my old rc motor lathe.  

I got the part number from Olsen’s for the thrust washers but couldn’t find an exploded view anywhere. 

I updated with an exploded view: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/lc200p11.pdf

http://www.olsenstoy.com/218p.htm

This is the page I was using. I ordered the 611-129 thrust washer. My engine does not have the ball on the bottom of the motor shaft. The gear cover on the truck has a hole that says oil. The motor plate is aluminum with a bronze bushing in it and the top cover has a bronze sleeve with an oil wick. 

BMORAN4 gave you the correct page.

bmoran4 posted:

I would definitely look to replace with a like truck that has dual axle magnatraction and a single field for the 3 position e-unit...

As Burfle points out above, single or double field, it doesn't matter. Whichever one comes up first will work.

ADCX Rob posted:

bmoran4 posted:

I would definitely look to replace with a like truck that has dual axle magnatraction and a single field for the 3 position e-unit...

As Burfle points out above, single or double field, it doesn't matter. Whichever one comes up first will work.

The availability of the correct 218-101 is high enough that I wouldn't sacrifice originality or risk loosing magnatraction axle count, but yes, a double field motor can be used with a 3 position e-unit as stated.

The availability of the correct 218-101 is high enough that I wouldn't sacrifice originality or risk loosing magnatraction axle count, but yes, a double field motor can be used with a 3 position e-unit as stated

We don't know anything about the condition of Tug Driver's 218.
Those engines are commonly found with the front aprons damaged.
And he is describing a lot of wear in the mechanism, which often means lots of boo-boos on the shells.
Personally, if the engine isn't in great shape, I wouldn't worry about keeping it original.

Here are some pictures of the unit. I got stored in an attic of a business for a while and when the business was closed it was rediscovered. It went with my Father In Law's Brother In Law at that point. It had been left with a battery in the horn and there was the typical damage. A friend of the Brother In Law got it running and removed the battery box and relay and painted the frame. It was used periodically but even then it would run slow going forward for the same throttle setting in reverse. When it was given to my son (he's 3, so I'm the current caretaker) I gave it a good lubrication with some electric motor ball bearing oil. I changed the e-unit for some bad gouges in the plastic part of the drum then the motor brushes. I removed the horn to do the e-unit swap and have just left it off for now in storage. The body shell's are great surprisingly, it's just a mechanical dud right now.

I see fresh brushes and the brush springs appear to be strong. The shell looks marvelous!

The wheels don't look terribly grooved to the point of concern. Some GooGone on a q-tip (okay, probably numerous q-tips) should clean them up nice.

Did you add the thrust washer(s) like you intended?

Did you clean the commutator with some CRC 2-26 or TV Tuner Cleaner? You can use the same to clean and lubricate the pick up rollers and assembly.

bmoran4 posted:

I see fresh brushes and the brush springs appear to be strong. The shell looks marvelous!

The wheels don't look terribly grooved to the point of concern. Some GooGone on a q-tip (okay, probably numerous q-tips) should clean them up nice.

Did you add the thrust washer(s) like you intended?

Did you clean the commutator with some CRC 2-26 or TV Tuner Cleaner? You can use the same to clean and lubricate the pick up rollers and assembly.

I’m away on my tug boat until the 28th so this is all planning until I get home. I have the plastic thrust washers on order so they should be waiting for me. I’ll have to get another can of CRC I finished mine off tuning up my 624 right before I left for work. 

I did score a B unit on eBay the other day so I really want to get this up and running right. 

Tug_Driver posted:

... The body shell's are great surprisingly, it's just a mechanical dud right now.

I know what the problem is now. That motor will run just fine with a minor repair.

The problem is the lower bearing plate is floating in the stamped aluminum motor side frames as the factory staking has worked loose over the years.  The old Lionel fix for this was to "dent" the side frames with a punch, some shops used cardstock jammed in to firm up the plate.

I have had good luck using tiny black anodized self-tapping screws into drilled pilot holes to hold the bearing in place.

For a non-destructive fix, my latest method, though, beats them all.  Using the CRC QD or any non-residue contact cleaner, clean ALL oil & residue from between the sideframes & the bearing, using the nozzle to spray into the crevice.  Dry it out well, several hours or overnight.

Now use the regular "thin"(not gel) CA adhesive("Super Glue", Eastman 910, etc.) and flow the cement into the crevice on both sides, letting it creep in by capillary action to fill the gap.

In about 10 minutes, the loco is ready to be lubed(grease on gears, oil on pivots & bearings/axles) and will run like new. 

To confirm this will work on your diesel, run it upside down in a foam cradle and squeeze the stamped aluminum motor side frames tight to the lower bearing plate firmly with just your fingers.

Sometimes you need to shift the gearbox to one side or the other too. I've done "the wedge" on a few pulmores, with styrene, fireplace matches,toothpicks, Gel-superglue, and JB weld too. Test which side to wedge, or choose center, it can make a difference.  If it has one, back the brush caps armature screw out before shimming and readjust it again to test.

Four set screws and your fully adjustable though...nice 

Isn't the bottom plate fix you guys are describing for the older motors that use the lower plate as a bearing?
He has the revised motor with a bearing in the plate between the armature head and worm.
The lower bearing plate is just a dust cover on the revised motor. Eventually Lionel started leaving it off.

C W Burfle posted:

Isn't the bottom plate fix you guys are describing for the older motors that use the lower plate as a bearing?
He has the revised motor with a bearing in the plate between the armature head and worm.
The lower bearing plate is just a dust cover on the revised motor. Eventually Lionel started leaving it off.

I was wondering the same thing. This motor appears to be the post 1958 frame. My lower cover is just a hole that says oil and there is a bronze bushing in the base plate. 

Tug_Driver posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Isn't the bottom plate fix you guys are describing for the older motors that use the lower plate as a bearing?
He has the revised motor with a bearing in the plate between the armature head and worm.
The lower bearing plate is just a dust cover on the revised motor. Eventually Lionel started leaving it off.

I was wondering the same thing. This motor appears to be the post 1958 frame. My lower cover is just a hole that says oil and there is a bronze bushing in the base plate. 

If this is an original 218 motor, it pre-dates the 1960 change to  the dust-cover-only models with the bearing just under the armature poles and if the base plate is original and has the "oil" hole, it should be a bearing plate version.

I checked the Lionel service manual. It says the motor change was made for the 1958 line. ref: Loc-200, page 5, 10-61.
Tandem associates says the 218 was made between 1959 and 1963.
So one would think the 218 has the center bearing.

Tug Driver has posted that his motor has the center bearing, and I can see in his pictures that it does.

I also looked at my 1990 Greenberg postwar guide. It has some information on motor variations, but it does not cover the early center bearing motors with the non-functional lower bearing plate.

These later alcos are often found with combinations of chassis and shells that were not created at the factory. Operators and collectors used to marry good chassis with good bodies without paying attention to being accurate to factory production.

I thought the "oil" hole was eliminated when the bearing location changed. Close inspection of his pics shows it is the later design, although retaining the hole - leftover stock being used.

I can't look at anything I own for reference as I am quite far removed from original ownership on my 200 series Alcos.

My 218 is long gone.

Over the years, I know I've had 200 series ALCOs with the revised motors and oil hole/markings. As Rob wrote, Lionel probably was using up the old part.
The armatures on the revised motors are slightly different. Usually they don't have the tip that rides in the lower bearing, and more importantly, the collar under the armature head is longer to ride on that center bearing.

Lionel did offer a ring that could be slipped on the old style armatures so they could be used with the revised motor.

I have a couple of these motors, one in my 218, the other in a 1055 I think. Because of the leverage the worm gear could exert on the armature worm shaft, the bottom bearing takes a lot of abuse and eventually gets pretty sloppy. Both of mine are worn to the point of causing poor running, directional binding, and just plain noisy. I can move the armature shaft using my finger (while running) from side to side and fore and aft - tit makes a HUGE difference in the engine rpm and noise level. I considered putting a new bushing in the motor plate, but that's waaaay beyond my pay grade - the soft aluminum in the bottom plate wouldn't tolerate my tortuous hands for long, and that's assuming I could even find the (bronze?) bushing/bearing.