Rerailing a Steam Locomotive

Railfan Brody posted:

No I mean for the younger guys. I know that you need at least a drivers license, but is there a certain age?

Not according to the FRA. However, I wouldn't think that any host railroad, nor any operating organization of a main line steam locomotive, would allow anyone under 21 years of age. You should probably be checking with the organization that YOU belong to, i.e. the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society.

Then again, it generally is always about age, but how much one has studied & learned.

I have tried emailing them, but it won't work, and I knew that Kelly and Rich were on this forum, so that's why I ask. Also I don't get out to the shops very often, though I would love to. Thanks though! Looks like I have some time to wait! I know you have fired 844 and 3985, is there a difference between firing a coal locomotive and an oil locomotive except different firing valves?

Railfan Brody posted:

 I know you have fired 844 and 3985, is there a difference between firing a coal locomotive and an oil locomotive except different firing valves?

There is a HUGE difference in firing a coal burning steam locomotive (like NKP 765 or UP 3985 when it WAS a coal burner), as compared to an oil burning steam locomotive ( like SP 4449, UP 844, UP 3985 after it was converted to oil burning in 1990, and Santa Fe 3751). With a coal burner, there is a real fire, with a slow reacting bed of very hot coals. Conversely, with an oil burner there is no real "fire", but just a large oil flame, which reacts instantaneously to changes in throttle and/or valve gear setting. The Fireman on an oil burner MUST be constantly aware of EVERYTHING the Engineer does.

Thanks Hot Water!

Railfan, if you are passionate about this, you have GOT to get yourself a good basic education about steam.  Hot Water and Rich and others are not here to offer a steam locomotive primer. They are not going to have the time or patience to answer every single question you have, because they've answered each question you have multiple times already on the Forum over the years, and you may frustrate them by asking similar questions over and over. And while their answers will be helpful to you, by the very nature of this Forum they will only be able to cover the very basics in them. If you really want to know about a topic, you're just going to have to study it. This Form represents a very tiny percentage of information available about steam.

Example: Hot Water answered your very basic question. He is, of course, able to write scores of pages on the subject, but do you think he wants to do that here? Do you think he has the time to write the definitive master class on steam locomotive firing?

You thanked him for his answer--that was very kind. However, Hot Water may sense in you a lack of interest, because you seemed to have been satisfied with the answer, and gone on your way--and perhaps you were. But...Did you really get everything you wanted to know out of his answer? Or did his answer make you think up other questions? Like...what's the BTU difference between coal and oil? What's the BTU difference between different coals, and different oils? What does he mean when he says there's a "very large flame" on an oil burner? What does "slow reacting" mean? How does the oil even get into the firebox? Does it just flow out in a stream like when you turn on a hose?

It's great that you asked the question, but I think follow-up questions based in the information given previously might make it seem like you have a deeper interest. Asking educated or intelligent questions of these folks might lead you to more understanding. Asking questions just for the sake of asking questions might not get you far with some folks.

Listen--do yourself the biggest favor you can: Buy this CD for 20 bucks and READ the answers to every single question you've ever had about steam locomotives. There will be some subjects here you just don't understand--but then you can come here and ask for clarification. This will enable you to ask intelligent questions that will lift you above the fray.

Trust me, I'd love to go out to the FWRHS shops, but like I said, I have school, and I'm only 15. I'd be there every weekend if I had a way to get there. And I was satisfied with the answer I got, because I know that it will be at least a year before I can volunteer. But I am asking questions because I am dead set on becoming part of the engine crew. I just want to get some basics about steam locomotive, because it will be at least 6 years before I can fire at track speed on a Class I. I will look  in to the CD, though I may not buy it until school lets out, because I rarely get a free night. I will take it easy on the questions.              

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks Steve!                                                                                                                                                                Brody

Stop the excuses.

If you have time to post questions to this board and read the answers, and play on your train simulators, then you have time to read the ICS courses. It's as simple as that. And--please feel free to correct me--it seems like you're making up every excuse you can to avoid having to "read a book" about the very subject you claim great interest in.

These books aren't for everyone on this board. They're the "real deal" if you want to have a working understanding of the steam locomotive and all of its sub-systems. These aren't books that will appeal much to the typical model railroading crowd, but for someone in your shoes, they are absolutely required reading. You will still need to have tons of hands-on learning, but at least you will understand what is expected of you as a fireman or engineer.

If you don't have the patience to read, then at least save up (or ask for them for Christmas) and get these videos: Running a Steam Locomotive Vol. 1, 2 and 3.

RAILFAN BRODY,

You had REALLY better take note to what SMD4 says! I began "learning" from the old guys in the early to mid 1950s, however nothing, and I mean NOTHING is a substitute for "book learning" on steam locomotives. I first began reading based on suggestions from there old guys, and then learned "hands on" at the PRR New York and Long Branch locomotive facility in South Amboy, NJ. They touch me how to clean fires, re-lay fires, lubricate the running gear, take water, and take sand (they would NOT let me take coal from the coal dock, as they were way too worried about a 16 year old getting hurt, who wasn't even an employee). I was getting pretty good at reading and learning from hands on.

Dear Steve,                                                                                                                                                                               Where can I get the books at? I would love to get started right away. I was actually looking at a book written by Top Gear presenter James May that describes in great detail, how to operate British Rail 60163 Tornado. If you can link me to the books, that would be excellent!

Thanks for the help.

*sigh.*

OK, let me be as gentle as I can be.

See that first link to the CD I linked to? That's a CD that actually has books *scanned in* on it--they're not "real" books, although you can buy the real books if you want to spend a lot more money and can find them.

(If you prefer actual books, you have to look for them. You can get them on places like abebooks.com. Here's a good one to start: Firing of Locomotives. But you can see just this single book is more than the cost of the CD which has 14 books on it)

I'd forget any book written by a "Top Gear presenter" as a rule of thumb.

The books were published in the 1920s - 1940s as a "Correspondence Course." Sort of like "online learning" today. You'd get a book every few weeks in the mail ("correspondence"), then after you read it, you'd take a test and mail the test back to get it graded. Then you'd get another book. Men could take the entire course and learn to be enginemen before they applied to the railroad.

These are the books available on the CD:

But like I said, even after reading these books, you will understand what you are supposed to do, but you won't necessarily know when or how you are supposed to do it. That will come with hands-on experience.

Example: I can explain to you what an injector is, who invented it and when, the theory of how it functions and it's various parts and how they worked. I knew to turn the valve for water and pull the lever for steam.

When I started learning to fire, that didn't stop me from spraying all kinds of steam and hot water on the engineer when I forgot to shut off the steam before I started shutting off the water. I had to learn that by experience.

So, to sum up: You will greatly benefit from the book knowledge AND the experience. You can't get the experience now, but you can give yourself a head start with the books.

Brody,  As a 15 year old, make sure you put things in perspective. Your regular schooling is a valid "excuse." You are entitled to move at your own pace. 

Winston Churchill had a quote which maybe fits from 1935:                  .     "Nourish your hopes, but do not overlook realities."     

 Tom

Thanks everyone for the help. Signing off for the night!

 Brody  Again don't let theses guys get you down. Yes reading up is one thing but experience is the one that counts.   I know lots of crew members that have been almost perfect with written tests but couldn't  run a sewing machine let alone a engine. As Tom pointed out, your school work is your first priority.

I also think HW likes to answer questions about steam engines. ( he's a steam nut and knows just about everything about  them) I'm impressed on his knowledge about steam,  and  then again he started  learning from the old guys in the early  to mid 50s. He would be about your age since he was born in 1942. 

Gregg posted:

 Yes reading up is one thing but experience is the one that counts.  

Aren't you paying attention? The kid can't get any experience! What do you want him to do? Sit on his thumbs for the next six years??

Hi I'm back!                                                                                                                                                             I have some questions: 

Rich, after watching some old videos of the New River Train, I was wondering, what ever happened to Tom Stevens? Is he still a part of the crew? My next question concerns Steve Winicker. I was wondering if he was an engineer, or just a fireman.

Also, when is hand shoveling necessary on a coal locomotive with a stoker? And on oil locomotives, why is sand poured into the firebox occasionally?

Sorry for being kind of a pest!                                                                                                                          Just curious! And I love railroading!  

Smoke is unburned fuel. On an oil burner, any time you make a lot of smoke, some of the oil soot in that smoke coats the tubes. It's nasty stuff. It's an insulator. It prevents the transfer of heat from the tubes to the water surrounding them. Your steaming ability will be diminished.

The fireman pours sand in the firebox when the engine is working hard (sometimes with the blower turned up). This draft pulls the sand through the tubes, scouring the oil soot away, helping the engine to steam better.

Coal burners make smoke and soot too. Why do you think coal burners don't need to use sand?

Thanks Steve!

Man, they're probably going to need a lot of sand when 4014 is operational!

Never heard of anyone sanding the flues in a coal burner. I'm going to speculate that because the cinders are abrasive that it's not necessary.  Tom Stephens retired. Steve was the CMO for a long time, not sure if he still is.  

Railfan;  I'm not a railroader.  I have little hands on full size railroad experience so I can't speak with the authority of SMD, Hot, Rich and others (I'm here to learn as well!).

But I've read a courses similar to those you've been pointed to.  

Your school work has to be tops in your life, but you are at a good point in time in that you likely can still steer your education into math, physical and chemical sciences.  You will need good math skills and basic knowledge of physics and chemistry to understand fully comprehend what is in those courses (I think sometimes back in the day, we did a much better job at educating these basic skills then we do today where more focus is put on modern technology).  If you have a chance to take metal/wood shop class (does that exist anywhere today?), run, don't walk.   So if you can still steer your high school experience, do so; as it will not only benefit your dream of firing steam, but the rest of your life as well.

Bob

I'm pretty sure that Steve is still CMO. He was at the shops over the winter when I visited and was firing at Steam In The Valley.

Railfan Brody posted:

Hi I'm back!                                                                                                                                                             I have some questions: 

Rich, after watching some old videos of the New River Train, I was wondering, what ever happened to Tom Stevens? Is he still a part of the crew?
Tom retired several years ago. He and his wife Liz are in their early 80s now and doing well. They travel a lot in their motor home.

My next question concerns Steve Winicker. I was wondering if he was an engineer, or just a fireman.

Steve is our Chief Mechanical Officer and a fireman. He is not a qualified engineer.

Also, when is hand shoveling necessary on a coal locomotive with a stoker?

The scoop is needed when standing still and you just need to "trim" the fire. In other words, you just need a little coal here and a little coal there to keep the fire burning even and bright. On the road we will occasionally use the scoop to put a couple shots in each back corner. The stoker does not get the back corners too well and over time it gets a little thin back there. So the fireman will shoot a couple of scoops into each back corner every once in a while.

And on oil locomotives, why is sand poured into the firebox occasionally?

There is nothing abrasive in oil smoke. Consequently a layer of soot will slowly build up in the flues. This soot acts as an insulator, hindering the transfer of heat from the firebox to the flues.  "Sanding the flues" in an oil burner introduces some "grit" to the flue gasses in the form of the sand. It will clean the soot off the flues and the exhaust carries it up the stack.

Cinders in the coal are abrasive enough to keep the flues clean. Consequently there is never  a need to sand the flues in a coal burning locomotive.

Sorry for being kind of a pest!

Just curious! And I love railroading! 
You are not a pest. You are a young student of steam. And the lessons continue...

Thanks Rich! I appreciate the information.

Hey Hot Water, do you recognize any of these guys? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like they are testing the cylinder cox and valve gear. Let me know if you know whose all there. The only person in the UP steam program that I can recognize is Ed Dickens, but he's not in this video. Enjoy!

-Brody

From the webmaster:
Here's something else you could learn how to do...EMBED your video instead of just pasting a URL here. You're welcome. 

Railfan Brody posted:

Hey Hot Water, do you recognize any of these guys?

Yes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like they are testing the cylinder cox and valve gear.

First, they are "Cylinder Cocks", and second the Engineer, Bob Krieger, is blowing the condensation out of the cylinders, through the Cylinder Cocks. Note how he cracks the throttle in forward, then shuts off, pulls the reverse gear to reverse and cracks the throttle again.

Let me know if you know whose all there.

Well, that video really only showed one guy clearly, and that was Bob Krieger, in the Engineer's seat. The rest of the guys on the ground were the Mechanical Crew.

The only person in the UP steam program that I can recognize is Ed Dickens, but he's not in this video. Enjoy!

This video was taken well prior to his "involvement". 

-Brody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJVJf4vAtk

A lot of potential for injury.  One assumes a big safety meeting before, this all started.  IMO.  Volunteering, one thing, volunteering and getting injured a whole other ball game.    " Safety meeting of the day".

Mike CT posted:

A lot of potential for injury.  One assumes a big safety meeting before, this all started.  IMO.  Volunteering, one thing, volunteering and getting injured a whole other ball game.    " Safety meeting of the day".

I can't speak for the current steam crew, but the guys in this video certainly knew what they were doing.

smd4 posted:

I'd forget any book written by a "Top Gear presenter" as a rule of thumb.

This is James May we're talking about, and unlike the other two presenters, he actually has a great deal of respect for the steam locomotive and the crew that operates it, unlike Jeremy Clarkson who complained the whole time when he had to hand shovel Tornado from London to Edinburgh. James actually helped with the smokebox door on the new P2 locomotive being build by the Darlington Locomotive Works. So I would accept his information.

Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17pZp9IlyNI

Mike CT posted:

A lot of potential for injury...

Where? What injury?

This is nothing more than routine servicing of a steam locomotive. It's not a big deal. It's done at least once every day on every steam locomotive that runs.

Good grief...we are becoming a nation of wimps. 

Railfan Brody posted:

This is James May we're talking about...So I would accept his information.

That's fine. It's just that I prefer to get my information from books, catechisms and manuals that were actually written to train steam locomotive firemen and engineers at the time that steam locomotives were the predominate form of motive power (or experienced engine crew members), and not someone who helped make a smokebox door.

But again, that's just me. 

Do you have a link to his book, or the title? I haven't been able to find it.

Steve,

I have the book title, it has a lot of different tasks like a Worst Case Survival Handbook.

How To Land An A330 Airbus and Other Vital Skills For The Modern Man

OGR Webmaster posted:

Mike CT posted:

A lot of potential for injury...

Where? What injury?

This is nothing more than routine servicing of a steam locomotive. It's not a big deal. It's done at least once every day on every steam locomotive that runs.

Good grief...we are becoming a nation of wimps. 

A lot of un-controlled force, small wood pieces, metal re-railers that could easily move.  The spread rail and poor ties could fail at any time   Cable/chains could easily break, No one has a hard hat.   I would question some of the work clothes and shoes and lack of safety glasses.  Basic work coordination, I assume there was one in charge, directing several workers.  There's a lot in the video that a safety inspector would question.  Consider that the beginning of the "Safety meeting of the day".  I might be a wimp, but my employees never had a major workmen's comp. claim.  Most injuries occur with something that is "routine".  IMO.  Mike CT.   

I believe you are referencing the video of the re-railing at the start of this thread. It would appear that if you were in charge, the engine would still be on the ground.

And exactly how many steam crew injuries throughout the country are reported in any given year?

The answer of course, is pretty much "none."

I am thankful every day that people like you aren't involved in railroading.

-

Brody, this is a thread about rerailing a steam locomotive. If you have questions about other subjects, start a new thread to ask the question.

Your previous post was forked into a new thread.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Brody, this is a thread about rerailing a steam locomotive. If you have questions about other subjects, start a new thread to ask the question.

Your previous post was forked into a new thread.

Will do Rich!