RS2 sound failure in Lionel Hudson "Yellow Belly" 6-18043

A few comments that might help.

The first red flag is between Steps 2 and 3. The power provided to the RailSounds system through the tether to the C&O tender is right off the pick-ups of the locomotive without going through any electronics. Did you try to see if the sound system would work in conventional mode? If the sound system powers-up in conventional but doesn't do anything in command, then the LCRU could possibly be the issue. (In this case, the sound system would be waiting for a command through the serial line, which it isn't getting.) If it doesn't work in conventional either, then the problem is likely localized to the sound board and its accessories (volume pot, speaker, etc.) or in the wiring from the locomotive to the tether.

The PIC and ROM chips should be switchable between the boards (although they should be kept as matched pairs). Sometimes when swapping chips I've found that they don't work on their first installation. I usually extract them again, wipe the chip contacts with contact cleaner, and reinstall to get things working. It's possible your C&O 490 chips could have been damaged by the original board, but I've rarely ever seen that happen.

Another problem is trying to reset the LCRU in your C&O. That LCRU is an LCRU1, which DOES NOT respond to any reset commands. (Your Vanderbilt has the later LCRU2, which does accept them.) You won't hurt anything by going through the steps, but nothing will happen.

If I were you, I'd go back to your working RS2.5 sound board with your Vanderbilt chips in it. Install that in your C&O tender. Test in conventional mode with your command base unplugged. If it still doesn't work, the problem is that it's not getting power through the tether, or it could be the volume pot or speaker.

Good luck-

TRW

I am not familiar with the engine but did you check the tether wiring between the loco and tender?

If you need to replace the LCRU use a ERR AC Commander. It is cheaper and allows 100 speed steps.

Maybe worse case gut the electronics and upgrade to the AC Commander and Railsounds Commander which is Railsounds 4 or 5 based. 

Nick

Yes, the tether was tested and passed.  Moved all the wires in a circle with a VOM attached; all the wires had continuity.  If a wire was bad it would have shown.  Where would I get an AC Commander and AC Commander sound card?

the pod and speaker were tested in the working commodore and both worked.  The tether was tested with a VOM and passed.  I did NOT try placing the system into conventional mode and testing the sound board.    In conventional mode, is the LCRU unit bypassed?

Not likely the LCRU.  The Commodore tender and the Yellow belly tenders are not wired the same. The Commodore tender has a four prong plug and the C&O has six. While both tenders have the same plugs for the circuit board, they connect to different pins in the tether. I highly suspect the power and ground pins. The guys at Lionel service should be able to supply you with a modified wiring diagram with the correct pin-outs from the six prong plug to the 4 prong plugs. Once you get that figured out, you might be able to use your original PIC and ROM chips for the original soundset.

JeffreyJ posted:

Yes, the tether was tested and passed.  Moved all the wires in a circle with a VOM attached; all the wires had continuity.  If a wire was bad it would have shown.  Where would I get an AC Commander and AC Commander sound card?

Here you go.

http://www.electricrr.com/

Sounds like Chuck has the answer with the different pins in the tether.

Nick

JeffreyJ posted:

the pod and speaker were tested in the working commodore and both worked.  The tether was tested with a VOM and passed.  I did NOT try placing the system into conventional mode and testing the sound board.    In conventional mode, is the LCRU unit bypassed?

You essentially eliminate the LCRU as a cause by working in conventional mode.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Not likely the LCRU.  The Commodore tender and the Yellow belly tenders are not wired the same. The Commodore tender has a four prong plug and the C&O has six. While both tenders have the same plugs for the circuit board, they connect to different pins in the tether. I highly suspect the power and ground pins. The guys at Lionel service should be able to supply you with a modified wiring diagram with the correct pin-outs from the six prong plug to the 4 prong plugs. Once you get that figured out, you might be able to use your original PIC and ROM chips for the original soundset.

Chuck, I agree with you that I don't believe it's the LCRU, and that the tenders are not wired the same. One correction though, is that the Vanderbilt has a six-pin tether and the C&O has eight.

The wiring diagrams for the C&O locomotive are here, and the tender here. Scroll down to the last page of each file.

The RS2.5 board gets its power from the black and black/red-striped wires. As you can see, it's a straight pass-through from the locomotive, without going through any electronics. Like Chuck said, start there.

TRW

I have that engine I converted to DCS and can motor.  I saved all the parts in the event someone may want to make it original.  If you need any pictures or to borrow parts let me know.  Everything is good as I found one NIB to work with.

TRW, you are correct, it is 6 and 8 pins/socket. Memory failed me there.

Hello Everybody:

It is the LCRU that is bad.   Connected the sound card directly to track power and it works great with both the Commodore and Hudson sound chips.   When the sound card is plugged into the tether it does not work in either conventional or command.   Placed a VOM on pins 1 and 2  (they supply the sound card power) from the engine and received a reading of about 12v in conventional.  I suspect that the current output is the issue most likely caused by a failed card or an aged solder joint.  I plan on re-soldering the wires to see if that fixes the issue. 

Marty, can you please let me know how much you want for those parts, I like having spares and like you I share a great deal of "classic" parts with others.   I am new to the forum and not really sure about the rules of discussing purchases and giving out email.  As such could you please contact me via the tca-gulfcoastchapter.org website.   Just go to the contact us button in the menu bar at the far right hand side.   I check for emails from this site every morning.

I would like to thank everyone for their help.  You helped me solve a perplexing situation.

Send me a picture of what you want to martyfitz44@aol.com.

JeffreyJ posted:

Hello Everybody:

It is the LCRU that is bad.   Connected the sound card directly to track power and it works great with both the Commodore and Hudson sound chips.   When the sound card is plugged into the tether it does not work in either conventional or command.   Placed a VOM on pins 1 and 2  (they supply the sound card power) from the engine and received a reading of about 12v in conventional.  I suspect that the current output is the issue most likely caused by a failed card or an aged solder joint.  I plan on re-soldering the wires to see if that fixes the issue.

Hold-up for a minute... unless I'm reading something wrong, what you've said doesn't make sense.

1) You've proven that the sound system works when connected to track power. That's good, as it eliminates things like the speaker and volume pot.

2) It doesn't work in conventional or command when connected to the tether, but you're getting a reading of 12v in conventional on pins 1 and 2. If your track power is also 12 volts, then that's good. Track power and the voltage on pins 1 and 2 should be exactly the same.

3) If you're in conventional mode, and you're getting the correct track voltage at pins 1 and 2 across the tether, and you know the sound system works, then there is no reason why it wouldn't work. If you trace pins 1 and 2 (black and black with the red stripe) back through the locomotive, you'll see that they're wired DIRECT to track power. There is no LCRU or any other electronics involved.

We still don't know if your LCRU is good or bad, but the above scenario should work in conventional. I suspect that the tether is not delivering track power to the tender.

TRW

If you definitely had smoke come out of tender, the RS board had to have some damage.  Did you test the damaged board in your good engine?  Just to ensure it was bad.

Regardless, you know the replacement board works with your old chips, so now why not work in the engine.  It very well can be the LCRU.  The RS May sense command mode and stay quiet, but not have serial data getting to the RS board to operate it.

So, swap LCRU from the engine.  If it works the LCRU is in fact bad.  If not, there must be a tether issue oif some sort.   G

Sorry to hear about what happened I have one and have been hoping that lionel will do a legacy version so it sits on my shelf waiting for its legacy brother to arrive, Good luck with yours 

Examined the LCRU board with a bright light and magnifying glass.  One of the components has melted; the surrounding board is burnt and a diode has a burn mark at one end.  The LCRU board  definitely  needs to be replaced.   Maybe you have some parts that I need for another engine.    I need a smoke level bracket (610-8045-505), smoke manifold (600-8306-214), and a smoke lever assembly (610-8045-216).  The LCRU board and  manifold are still available but the other parts are not.   These are for a Commodore Vanderbilt (6-18045) engine.

Would you have these items available?

Sorry I have an LCRU2 but do not have the other parts.  G

You could always convert it to fan driven smoke, that solves the problem of trying to find those parts.

GGG posted:

Sorry I have an LCRU2 but do not have the other parts.  G

If he needs the LCRU from the Yellowbelly, that takes an LCRU1.

TRW

Are you sure that you didn't accidentally reverse the tether connections...

i had a Boston and Albany steamer with tmcc that came out after the yellowbelly.

The tenter connecters if I remember we're not keyed....you had to align by th missing pin or connector....I reversed the wires accidentally. Although, it didn't take the sound board. It sure did damage the Lcru.

I took a close look at the LCRU board and is has melted components and a burnt circuit board.   It was hard to see without a really bright light and magnifying glass.   The circuit board is burnt in two different places.  One is by Q4 and the other is by a diode.  Could not read the number, it was burnt off.   

Whoever said this is a LCRU version 1 board is correct.  The Commodore Vanderbilt has the LCRU 2 board.  The board is still available from Lionel.

I have all three of the smoke unit parts, all are new.  If interested, contact me via email in profile, I see yours is not in there...

Marty