Semi scale 0-27? huh?

Semi-scale means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean.  LC+ locos are semi-scale as far as I am concerned.  I think they are a better buy than WBB but that's just my opinion.  Depending on the specific model, both company's products generally look good, go on O-27, and are about the same size. I just like the sound on LC+ a bit better and the control of speed, particularly at low speeds, is far better.

Semi-scale was a term originally used by Lionel in the prewar era to describe the less-detailed but fully scale-proportioned 763E that was offered as a lower-cost alternative to the 700E Hudson (in reality they probably should have just called it scale sized with economy detailing)

Nowadays it's collectively used to describe trains that are near-scale in proportion to a particular prototype but compressed in certain areas like length or height but not O-27 (traditional) sized.

My own thoughts on that terminology as used today reflects that of forum moderator and railroad engineer/pilot/curmudgeon Rich Melvin that saying something is "semi-scale" is like a woman saying that she's "a little bit" pregnant.  An O gauge train is  either scale or it isn't. 

In some wheel arrangements, like 2-8-4, Lionel offers three sizes.  Scale and two semi- (or not-scale, if you will).  Long ago, my uncle and grandfather would've called the larger of the not-scale version "O Gauge" and the Junior Berk "O27".  Not sure that lingo has survived.  The "O Gauge version" remake of the 726 and 736 Berk is larger than the Junior Berk. 

WBB has just one 2-8-4 and is approximately the same size as Lionel's middle version.

Hope that helps.

Oh, by the way, if you're running O27 tubular track, you're not limited to tight 27" diameter curves.  The manufacturers make 42" and 54" curves in O27 as well (odd as that may sound).  Long ago, Marx made 34" curves in O27.  If you have room for wider curves, it's well worth doing. 

I have only semi-/non-scale engines, and they look much nicer on the 42" curves (or 36" and 48" fastrack curves I have for our Christmas Tree layout).

I am going to vote with Rich and Lee - it is either scale or it isn't.  That would include 3-rail scale and incorrect track gauge.  There ought to be a more descriptive, yet non-pejorative, adjective for the smaller models.  Non-scale?

And O-27 is a diameter, not a track style.  Or did I get that wrong? How can you have 27" diameter in some other diameter?  String theory?

O-27 is diameter and a different track profile than O gauge tubular.

Really, whatever Lionel or whoever used it the first time intended, what "semi-scale" means today is "not scale."  You have to judge each toy locomotive, etc., on its own merits. Some of them (MTH's beautiful Imperial line) are detailed and often not inexpensive) and some are, well, just crud.

Some postwar Lionel engines, like the PRR K4, were sold as "O" #675, and as "027" #2025. Except for the cab number, they were exactly the same. However, the "O" version was priced 50 cents higher. Of course, both were "semi-scale", meaning in this case 3 1/2 inches shorter than a scale version would be.

Boy, here it is again - a pet peeve of mine.

Semi-scale - nice detailing, too small for proper O Scale/O gauge - relationship; typically a

price-point/small layout room solution.

OR

Semi-scale - full 1:48 O Scale and O Gauge compatibility, but lacking in detailing, usually the hand-applied stuff, which costs more to make and handle; typically a price-point solution.

(I'll ignore the 17/64 or 1:43.5, 5-foot O gauge issue here.)

Nothing wrong with either solution above; not everyone has as much money or room as

others, but these guys are still valuable members of the O-gauge world. LM or RK equipment can be exquisite, and I buy it sometimes because I like it - and I have 072

curves.

My gripe is with the inexact and actually contradictory terminology.

Why not call it what it is (K-line started to - right on

their Allegheny box it said "1:58" - O gauge, but not "1:48"): O gauge built to

scale 1:48, 1:58, or 1:68, etc. They could be scale models, just running on O gauge

track, which may or may not be "proper" for the scale. "O gauge - scale A - or B or C..." 

Mainly because most of the engines we call traditional size or semi-scale are not built to any one scale. That K-line Allegheny was close to true 1/58 in all dimensions.

But, most of today's semi-scale items are compressed by different amounts in different dimensions. The height may be 1/58, the width 1/60, and the length 1/64. No one scale could be assigned to it.

The best way to go is to look at the various offerings next to each other and make the decision as to what looks good with what. Like weathering, it's a very personal decision as to what is acceptable.

Jim

WHAT???  "Nothing wrong with either solution above"??

If the proportions are correct, it is scale END OF STORY.  We are talking about a dictionary definition here.

What the heck is "nice" detailing?  What is "proper" o-scale/ogauge?

Both of the definitions above are, in my opinion, a train-wreck (sorry for the pun).

Detail level has absolutely nothing to do with scale.

I look at it this way:

You can either worry endlessly about the terminology and try to define it to the ultimate degree...

...or enjoy the hobby of model railroading in whatever form it takes.

Rusty

John K said it above. It was Lionel that originated the term semi scale with their scale size but less detailed pre war alternatives. Its obviously lost its meaning over the years. You can define it any way you want. To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart most of us know semi scale when we see it.

As for bringing 027 into the mix I think its safe to say 95% of the equipment that will run on 027 is semi scale. Some scale steam and diesel switchers may also negotiate 027 and comprise the other 5%.

Pete

The term "semi-scale" has nothing to do with detail, as previously noted.  I give a good example below.  

However, I will quibble with "If the proportions are correct, it is scale END OF STORY."  No, not quite.  If the proportions are correct, then the loco is some scale - it might be all nicely proportioned at 1:55 instead of 1:48.  But when you see the word "scale" used in O-gauge, I think it does (and should) imply 1:48 scale, unless it says otherwise. 

Regardless, maybe the best example of "semi-scale" I have seen recently is shown in the photo below.  The top model of 3462 in the photo is an MTH PS3 Premier model that is both scale in all dimensions and quite well detailed and prototypical.  The lower 3462 is a K-Line model that "screams" semi-scale to me.  It runs on O-27 curves and it is smaller than scale in every dimension, but reduced more in length than in height, in a way that tries to preserve the look as much as possible.  With its blind center drivers, shorter wheelbase, shorter body, and long tender-loco gap, it is also O-27 capable.  

The K-Line model was, at the time it was made, a premium product despite its "semi-scale nature - it has TMCC, Railsounds, and lots of detail: many "separately added" parts - that detail is not always prototypical, but quality parts and assembly and a lot of them make for an impressive looking loco.  This toy train does not look cheap.  

The tender is more interesting still and the reason why I picked it up at a TCA meet this morning.    First, note the K-Line tender looks "too big" for the loco, because it is: it's not reduced in size quite enough to match the loco, and it looks a bit out of place with it.  And it is -- it's very wrong for the 3460 class (see the MTH model, it has a correct type of tender).  But the K-line tender is almost an exact scale model of the smaller tender of an earlier ATSF class Prairie, as converted to oil during the 1940s.  Why K-line included it with their model here , I don't know, but when modified, this tender will go with a scratch/bashed scale model of an ATSF Prairie that I made some time back.   The loco - I'm not sure what I will do with it . . . probably put it in a box and use if for some future project.

Gentlemen.....Gentlemen  They're all toys and we know that to be fact. These threads are amusing in these days of high tech. Just think that this mess started in the late 1930's. And it has been beat to death ever since.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Lee, what about the MTH Euro-offerings?  They are 1:43, so would you consider then not scale because they are running on o-gauge track but are not 1:48?

I have several MTH Euro locos and some other 1:43 O-gauge (Darsted, etc.).  They are O-gauge but 1:43, not 1:48 scale, and I generally don't mix them with 1:48. 

And they are really good locos, by the way. 

Pappy, you're correct, and this "issue"/debate certainly isn't anything worth losing sleep over.  But, I can tell you as a newbie to the hobby about 10 years ago, reading through the discussions and definitions has been very helpful.  And, frankly, had I done a little more homework on the forum, I might have avoided a couple of purchases that I some (somewhat) regret.  Life-altering? Of course not.

I love the scale stuff and, as someone above pointed out, "scale" usually means "bigger".  My brother-in-law started in the hobby with traditional/semi-scale but quickly converted to scale after seeing the difference.

I was blessed to start in the hobby by inheriting my grandfather's postwar stuff which he always referred to as O27 gauge.  Since I knew I'd never sell them due to the sentimental value, I decided to buy the smaller, not-to-scale when adding to the collection. That, and I like the prices of the not-scale products better.

That decision was, in large part, of getting O27 track and O27 switches in the inheritance. Free is good.  As a result, my first purchases were two Baby Berks and a Baby Hudson.

Had I done my homework, I'd have known that the modern world offers 42" and 54" and 42" switches in O27 profile.  Only later did I find that I could buy some bigger, not-scale products by going with these bigger curves that still look fine with the postwar products. 

So, while I agree this dead horse seems to rise a few times each year, it's a worthwhile primer for those coming into the hobby.

Tell you what....

When I first got back into this hobby with a medium size bedroom around the wall layout, I noticed my MTH 0-27 NYC Passenger cars looked too small for my MTH RK PS2 NYC Alco PA ABA set.

Thus, I started to buy a bunch of MTH scale products (Premier).

Roll forward 14 years and several incomplete layouts later, I recently purchased last year the Lionel 100th Anniversary GCT, the small one, because there was no way the larger one would look good on my size layout, it is too big.

However, the smaller version is too small to look good with all my scale locos.

O-27 to the rescue!

I had purchased a few years back a bunch of RMT NYC O-27 passenger cars, and recently 7 Lionel Anniversary set UP O-27 passenger cars.

Guess what?

They look PERFECT under Lionels smaller GCT, and that narrow but long part of my layout.

So good in fact, that I bought a couple of O-27 locos to go with them all!

I even bought a bunch of those lovely Lionel Green Pullman O-27 cars.

Now the Chicago side of my layout is all scale or close to scale, so the proportions are kept, and since I cannot run more than one train on that part of the layout, I can still run what I want without affecting the scale looks of my scale items.

In the past, I have cringed over O-27, and gone the scale route...but I have come to the realization that my size layout just doesnt do as much justice to scale as i would like and vice-versa.

Thus, my O-27 New York staging and my Scale Chicago staging, with the layout taking up the remaining 80% of the room makes it all look just perfect.

These are the photos provided by OGR member Norton of HIS modular layout that set me on the O-27 kick, its beautiful!