What Gauge Is Semi- Scale Considered ?.
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"Semi" scale to me is a very broad-ranging term. It came mean ANYTHING. In "G" scale models have ranged from 1/22 to 1/32. That's a big separation.
I have "O" scale models. Some are closer to "S" scale than O. A few are over-sized for scale. The term is relative.
O gauge. It is a loose representation that is not to scale.
Are you discussion "gauge", i.e. the spacing of the rails? Or, are you discussing the "scale" of equipment as it relates to the PROPER size when compared to the real thing?
To my understanding, anything Lionel made in the post war period is basically semi-scale. While a few items like the F-3s, SW-1 switchers and possibly other may have been closer to scale than to semi-scale. The GG1s are definitely semi-scale.
It's still O gauge, the trains are just smaller than actual 1:48 scale, same track for both sizes. The 'smaller' can be anywhere from maybe a little larger than 1:64 scale to a little smaller than 1:48 scale, but they are all O gauge.
Dan Padova posted:To my understanding, anything Lionel made in the post war period is basically semi-scale. While a few items like the F-3s, SW-1 switchers and possibly other may have been closer to scale than to semi-scale. The GG1s are definitely semi-scale.
"Traditional" Lionel F-3s, SW-1 switchers, and GP-7s and GP-9s (made in Postwar and on to today, such as in the LionChief line) are essentially full scale in size (1/48). GG-1s, Alco FAs, Rectifiers, and EP-5s were smaller than O scale and may be referred to by some as semi-scale. All the traditional steam engines from the Postwar and beyond period, except for the scale Hudsons and a few scale switch engines, were semi-scale as well. It can be confusing.
In the context of Lionel collecting, Semi Scale refers to a set of cars which Lionel produced just prior to WWII. Lionel made a few cars in full O scale, with good detail and scale trucks and couplers, to go with the scale Hudson and scale B-6 switcher. But Lionel also offered these same cars with the regular tinplate trucks, so that they could be used behind other engines as well--and in that configuration, they are called "semi scale cars".
If you see a listing for something called "Lionel semi scale cars," it is most likely referring these cars, or to their 1990s remakes. The remakes had regular sprung trucks instead of the pre-war tinplate style, though.
So, for collectors, "semi scale" has a particular meaning. In any other context, it can mean just about anything, as the other posters have said.
In time this "gauge - scale" terminology will begin to make sense. As Hot Water said "gauge" only refers to the spacing between the outside rails. It has nothing to do with "scale".
Scale in O-gauge is one foot equals 48 feet of a prototype object, i.e., a 48 foot boxcar would be 12 inches long if it were scale; a semi-scale version might only be 10 inches long.
The way I see it, semi-scale or "traditional" sized equipment is not just smaller than 1/48 scale, its that the overall proportions are fudged. For instance traditional sized GG1s are not only smaller than scale, they do not have the long sleek look of the prototype. An HO GG1 model, while obviously smaller than O scale, retains the prototype's sleek proportions. So semi-scale equipment is typically a compromise in both size and proportion.
breezinup posted:Dan Padova posted:To my understanding, anything Lionel made in the post war period is basically semi-scale. While a few items like the F-3s, SW-1 switchers and possibly other may have been closer to scale than to semi-scale. The GG1s are definitely semi-scale.
"Traditional" Lionel F-3s, SW-1 switchers, and GP-7s and GP-9s (made in Postwar and on to today, such as in the LionChief line) are essentially full scale in size (1/48). GG-1s, Alco FAs, Rectifiers, and EP-5s were smaller than O scale and may be referred to by some as semi-scale. All the traditional steam engines from the Postwar and beyond period, except for the scale Hudsons and a few scale switch engines, were semi-scale as well. It can be confusing.
Breezinup pretty well nailed it. Prior to the modern era full scale (1:48) in O-Gauge, not much made was truly to scale in size and certainly not in detail. Back in the 60s and 70s, my understanding of the differences came from my uncle's O-Gauge track and engines and my grandfather's O27-Gauge track and engines.
O-Gauge (and still has) taller track and a 31" minimum diameter curve. O27 went down as tight as 27" curves and had lower profile track. Because of the track differences, they also had different switches. O27 engines could run on O-Gauge track but not vice versa (most of the time).
I THINK, pretty much all post-war stuff, whether called O-Gauge or O27 back then, would be called Traditional or Semi-Scale today due to the lack of detail. But, as Breezinup states, SOME Postwar items were scale (or nearly) IN SIZE.
I think, it's safe to say that O-Scale, with a few exceptions, seems to be new to the modern era.
nickaix posted:In the context of Lionel collecting, Semi Scale refers to a set of cars which Lionel produced just prior to WWII. Lionel made a few cars in full O scale, with good detail and scale trucks and couplers, to go with the scale Hudson and scale B-6 switcher. But Lionel also offered these same cars with the regular tinplate trucks, so that they could be used behind other engines as well--and in that configuration, they are called "semi scale cars".
Just to add a little more to what NICKAIX said, the semi-scale 0-6-0 B6 switchers differed from the scale version, the #701, which was built to NMRA standards, in that the semi-scale versions had bigger flanges on their drivers (to run on tubular track), the center driver was blind (no flange) and the couplers were the box type (not scale). One could argue that even the scale version was not really "true to scale" as the real switchers had an unequal spacing of their drivers.
Having said all of that...on another thread about basically the same topic, I think it was Prewar Pappy who basically reminded everyone that they are all still toys and to not waste too much of your time on the definitions.
Tom
breezinup posted:Dan Padova posted:To my understanding, anything Lionel made in the post war period is basically semi-scale. While a few items like the F-3s, SW-1 switchers and possibly other may have been closer to scale than to semi-scale. The GG1s are definitely semi-scale.
"Traditional" Lionel F-3s, SW-1 switchers, and GP-7s and GP-9s (made in Postwar and on to today, such as in the LionChief line) are essentially full scale in size (1/48). GG-1s, Alco FAs, Rectifiers, and EP-5s were smaller than O scale and may be referred to by some as semi-scale. All the traditional steam engines from the Postwar and beyond period, except for the scale Hudsons and a few scale switch engines, were semi-scale as well. It can be confusing.
You are correct. I had forgotten the Geeps. Another thing Lionel and other manufacturers did was to shrink some locos and rolling stock in length only. The GG1 is the perfect example.
LGB also shrunk their GG1s length but maintained the scale height and width as did Lionel. MTH and USA Trains make a GG1 in large scale that is truly a scale piece.
I am interested in dimensions LWH, some of you have pretty much answered that. Thank You.
ROZY205
Rozy
If you are interested in O scale freight cars check out the O Scale Freight Car Guide. Some cars in "traditional" product lines, particularly tank cars and coal hoppers, have full scale dimensions but moderate detail and get honorable mention in the O Scale Guide.
Theres some interesting stuff here, but Hot Water's, and rtr12's answers say it all quick & clean.
"Stuff" skipped over somewhat related.
A three digit number on postwar engines is for O track. A four digit is 0-27. But sometimes the number is the only difference and the loco can handle either.
String line overhang bumping the 0-27 turnout motors cover in the turn is the most common limiting factor on a diesel or car.Limited pilot truck or drawbar swing the limiting factor on PW steam. Though kick out overhang plays a part in that. Long roller arms also track wide off center in curves and can fall off the center rail of 0-27.
The GG-1 needs the two truck retaining guide slots made a tiny bit longer on each side (4 spots, 1/32"-1/16"), then it can usually handle 0-27 turns, but the coupler swings wide so it needs a dedicated head end car with a long coupler shaft and/or articulated knuckle and/or shaft.
E.G. on rollers & numbers: The SW in O and O-27 are identical vs a three digit or four digit I.D. on post war. (And it is closer to 1:48 scale than most others of the day) On some, the roller can drop off the 0-27 rail, even if it has the 0-27 number.
In a worst case scenario, a center rail gauging on the tight side of production curve tolerance, and a roller position also at an edge of tolerance, when combined, you will have no joy.
I've had the roller/ track issue twice. I bend the track rail top over sideways about a 1/16" to lean the middle rail towards the outside more. But an Erie, I have to zip tie one roller arm to limit that arms ability to drop more than 1/32" below rail height so it can jump back on during the straights approach.
I am interested in passenger cars.
ROZY205
From what I know, O-gauge passenger cars are available in three different lengths: 15", 18", and 21" ( that scale out as 60', 72', and 84' respectively).
As a modeler, your biggest concern will be the smallest diameter curves you expect your passenger cars to negotiate. If it is O31 or O36, you are pretty much limited to 15" cars. With 15" cars only the baggage type cars would be close to prototypical.
If you have O42 or O48, you could buy 18" cars, where there were some coaches that were only 72' long.
If you are O54 or wider, I believe you could go with 21" cars.
So, for the most part, anything less than 21" passenger cars will put you into the semi-scale area (especially if you are modeling well into the 20th Century era)
"Semi-scale" is an annoying, typically 3RO convention that means one - or both! - of 2 different things:
- a piece of equipment that runs on O-gauge track, but is not built to full US-standard, 1:48 O-scale dimensions. It can be a quite realistic model, however (see the K-line "1:58" Pacifics, for example), or very toy-like in appearance.
- a piece of equipment built to 1:48 O-scale dimensions, but with omitted or simplified detailing. Typically this is done for pricing and/or marketing reasons (the Pre-War Lionel Scale Hudson's 2 versions, for example).
I really dislike the term "semi-scale" as it has no real meaning, so is useless at best and confusing at worst. What I really dislike is catching myself using it. Grrrr.
It should be banned!
The term "semi-scale" was coined by people trying to describe most original Lionel trains, produced as toys. At first these trains, say in the late '30's and 40's, kind of looked like real trains but were too short, often too small overall and had many liberties taken to make them handle the tight curves and close clearances. Sometimes they were simply a matter of too much cost for a high production toy.
Of course, there were exceptions such as the 1935 Hiawatha's, the NYC Hudsons and the B-6 switcher, but those became the exception rather than the rule. Most diesels produced during the post war era were close in scale dimensions, if not in perfect detail. During the re-birth of the operators of 3 rail trains, much closer attention was paid to both details, accuracy and size. However, there were those of us who still needed tight curves with smaller engines and cars. So manufacturer's continued the development of accurate appearing trains but with the ability to negotiate a typical tinplate layout.
These were first called "0-27 scale", then newer names like 'Lionchief" or MTH's "Rail King" or Atlas's "Industrial Rail". These trains exhibit a good fidelity to prototype trains but are usually selectively reduced in size. Other concessions to tight corner operation include the truck mounted pilots on most diesels, undersize wheels with oversized flanges and truck mounted couplers on virtually all rolling stock. Very often small features or details like hand rails, grab irons, horns, etc. are also made oversized to reduce the tendency for breakage
Having said all that, I'm also very certain that modern day locomotives in full scale proportion are better models than those "full scale" models of the 1930's like the Hi, the Hudson or the B-6. Things do seem to improve with age.
Paul Fischer
TMTERRY, I would like to go shorter, running 15's now & having trouble with derailments on the 031 curves. Seem to be ok on the o42s
ROZY205
The 2015 Lionel Signature Edition has some 13" Baby Madison cars in either Santa Fe, Chessie System, Southern Pacific, Canadian Pacific, NYC, or Pullman.
But know, they are far from prototypical scale, being a scale 52'.
The good news is they can be had in 5 different types and numbers
ROZY 205 posted:TMTERRY, I would like to go shorter, running 15's now & having trouble with derailments on the 031 curves. Seem to be ok on the o42s
ROZY205
All of my passenger cars are well under 15". I have a modern Lionel Santa Fe O27 set, 2 sets of MTH O27 Madisons, and a set of MTH O27 Streamliners that are 13" or thereabouts. I also have a modern set of Williams O27 Streamliners and 2 sets of Lionel O27 Postwar streamliners that are about 12" and a tad shorter than the others I mentioned. All of them are fine on O27 curves.
I agree with D500 No such thing as semi-scale.... just like someone else said on the forum no such thing as semi-pregnant. Scale is a dimension nothing else nothing more. I use a ruler.... a machinist call's it a scale.
I think everyone is grasping at what your goal is. Curiosity, running ability, matching scale, matching looks, or true 1:48 that's small? All are possible really. Even these guesses can be figured more closely by comparison of doorways to real life. It's just most folks don't bother because other things are not to scale. If it comes close to looking right, that's good enough.
But don't think we don't want to help, we just don't want to measure like crazy till we know your goals. You may not care either, and it would be a waste of time then. Here's some simple estimates.
Baby Madison's 13" knuckle to knuckle. Seems like a very low 1:50s by eye.
K-line plastic streamliners, also 13" high 1:50s to low 1:60s look
WARR 1800s coaches, 12" low 1:50s
And just to throw a wrench in the works to hear it bang around, you have Marx "3/16th scale" streamliners that would be 11" if it had Lobster claw couplers and trucks added. (1:60s, Maybe 1:64?)
American Flyer is usually a 1:64 very close to scale and looks ok with 0-27 if you want to add O trucks (a slight mismatch in car to truck but doesn't look awful.)
All of the above-mentioned can be run on 0-27.
If you want 1:48 scale but short, maybe consider converting On30 to O gauge trucks. It would be shorter length, and a bit skinny, but doors and windows should be a true 1:48. On30 is 1:48 versions of things run on narrow gauge railroads that have a real life 30" gauge. On3 would be a 36" gauge. HO track is usually the cheapest way to do a whole narrow gauge layout for those scales. The track is very close to 1:48 scale; they only issue with using HO track, and mind you is seldom noticed by a lot of folks, is the size and space of the ties is wrong. (There is also On2, 1:48 on 24" wide track. Folks can fudge it and use N scale track or real On2 track. Again smaller, but doors.are 1:48.
Finding why your cars derail could let you run them. Might need weight. Might need couplers. Might need articulation in coupler shafts. Or shorter coupler shafts.
Heck, your wheels might be dirty. That will do it easier than you might think. Try looking, or better yet, just clean them. The gunk can look like metal and be nearly as hard. Use alcohol & a rag or Q-tips to clean wheels. (keep off body), Sometimes you have to scrape it off with a screwdriver or run a dremel wire wheel on them.
Well, as Clem and D500 have suggested that there is no such thing as semi-scale... there's one not-so-small problem.
Up until the mid-1990's, Lionel WAS semi-scale. When you said Lionel, you were saying TOY trains, of which millions have been made over the years. As we all know, of those millions, some were pretty close to scale size and many more were not. BUT this is Lionel. And it has been this way for the majority of years Lionel has been in business.
If you didn't like it, you most likely went to HO scale because Lionel trains were non-scale toys.
NOW we have true O scale proportioned trains in a 3-rail environment. Though popular on this forum, are a small niche of the otherwise small niche 3-rail market. Production runs are usually very small: Sometimes not even 100 pieces. A large run would be 2,000-3,000.
For Lionel, the scale products couldn't even exist without the sales of the semi-scale... traditional... whatever you want to call them, trains.
Recently, there was a post about the new Lionel 6-pack gondolas. Someone asked "are they scale?" Years ago, the answer would have been "they're Lionel. No."
So maybe the best course is when you say anything Lionel, you mean traditional, not to scale toy trains. IF you are looking for the scale stuff, say "scale Lionel." Problem is, there are people who want the scale stuff but don't say so.
Which seems to be an issue with the OP. What does he want?
You want a Lionel box car? For many, many years that meant two choices: Scout and 6464. Then MPC added the High Cube... three choices. Then LTI added the Waffle box car... four choices.
Now we have the scale stuff with more choices. But I'd be willing to bet there are far more 6464 box cars made than there have been scale ones all lumped together.
So instead of quibbling that there is no semi-scale, when in fact there is, and millions of those products out there, why not just say "scale" if that's your preference. And if you want semi-scale or traditional, just say "Lionel" because that what Lionel means.
And the funny thing is that this is being talked about on this particular forum, when there is another forum for scale 3-rail.
+2 on D500 and Clem. Personally I use Semi Scale to define 1/48 scale size items with minimal or wrong detail. Anything not true 1/48 is "traditional" size in my book. Shorter than scale passenger cars fall in a gray area.
Pete
Prewar American Flyer and pre and postwar Marx offered 3/16" scale trains on 3 rail O-gauge track. They will run on O-27 curves. You might want to look at some of those passenger cars and maybe swap out modern O-gauge trucks and/or couplers.
brianel_k-lineguy posted:Well, as Clem and D500 have suggested that there is no such thing as semi-scale... there's one not-so-small problem.
Up until the mid-1990's, Lionel WAS semi-scale. When you said Lionel, you were saying TOY trains, of which millions have been made over the years. As we all know, of those millions, some were pretty close to scale size and many more were not. BUT this is Lionel. And it has been this way for the majority of years Lionel has been in business.
If you didn't like it, you most likely went to HO scale because Lionel trains were non-scale toys.
NOW we have true O scale proportioned trains in a 3-rail environment. Though popular on this forum, are a small niche of the otherwise small niche 3-rail market. Production runs are usually very small: Sometimes not even 100 pieces. A large run would be 2,000-3,000.
For Lionel, the scale products couldn't even exist without the sales of the semi-scale... traditional... whatever you want to call them, trains.
Recently, there was a post about the new Lionel 6-pack gondolas. Someone asked "are they scale?" Years ago, the answer would have been "they're Lionel. No."
So maybe the best course is when you say anything Lionel, you mean traditional, not to scale toy trains. IF you are looking for the scale stuff, say "scale Lionel." Problem is, there are people who want the scale stuff but don't say so.
Which seems to be an issue with the OP. What does he want?
You want a Lionel box car? For many, many years that meant two choices: Scout and 6464. Then MPC added the High Cube... four choices. Then LTI added the Waffle box car... five choices.
Now we have the scale stuff with more choices. But I'd be willing to bet there are far more 6464 box cars made than there have been scale ones all lumped together.
So instead of quibbling that there is no semi-scale, when in fact there is, and millions of those products out there, why not just say "scale" if that's your preference. And if you want semi-scale or traditional, just say "Lionel" because that what Lionel means.
And the funny thing is that this is being talked about on this particular forum, when there is another forum for scale 3-rail.
After reading your post, I find it hard to believe you read any of the OP's posts. But look the bright side, at least you got your say I'm.
Actually, I am finding this ongoing discussion rather humorous, as it is in the "HiRail, 027 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge" forum. So many arguing about what "Semi-Scale" means. Wow.
To me at least, the term "semi-Scale" reflects on what was called the "Toy Maker's Art' of selective compression to give a Scale Appearance to Toy Trains. Looks very Scale Like but, due to various factors the equipment is reduced in size to fit certain restrictions, such as curves, side clearances, etc.
It's one of the reasons I live in an 036 Curve world. I can have just as much fun and enjoyment in that world without obsessing over "Scale" dimensions and appearances. I don't care if a car or locomotive overhangs the track in, what to some, appears a ridiculous visual . I have fun with my trains. They are toys and that's the way I like 'em. No disrespect to the "Scale" community. They have their own thresholds of enjoyment.
It is also one of the reasons why I bemoan the creeping dimensions of trains being sold nowadays. No reason, as far as I can see, to ignore those of us who don't have massive layouts. To me it was silly to have a Gorgeous SD70 Ace, capable of handling 036 curves and then come out with ES44Ac's and SD40-2's that require 054 curves. I know I am sounding like a "one note Johnnie" but heck, we spend significant monies in the marketplace too.
No, TM Terry, I did. And as is often the case, the original OP has less to say than other posters. I'm late to this parade. And I was responding more to others, which I made clear also.
And the OP didn't clarify until a few posts after his first, where he clarified 031 curves. Which is unfortunately the case with many people, especially newcomers, to the hobby. You want Lionel passenger cars: That's easy. There are a total of 3 choice... the 2400 Steamliners, the Madison ones and the extruded aluminum ones. And it was this way for many, years. This is Lionel. Those are Lionel passenger cars. Period.
Ah, but the times they are a-changing. And now there are more choices, of which the new ones are mostly scale. But even with that there's a grey area, as some of them are shorter cars, based on shorter prototypes, so they navigate smaller curves - as Lionel doesn't want to (and probably cannot afford to) lose sales.
I don't mind the scale stuff. There is obviously some small market for it. But were also talking about this on the "Hi-Rail, 027 and Traditional O Gauge" forum. I would be happy if saying Lionel meant Lionel. So I could say, I want a Lionel passenger car and that would most likely mean the 2400, since I use 027 track.
So if some are not happy with the semi-scale phrase, then let's just call it "Lionel." If you want a scale proportioned car, don't say "Lionel passenger car." Say "recent production scale proportioned Lionel passenger car."
You can say semi-scale was a marketing term (it was) or you don't agree with it, but nobody can say it does not exist when Lionel used it in their own advertising.
From Lionel's website (the archives, probably from around 2008 or so, but it least it shows Lionel used the term up fairly often), note all the instances of "semi-scale" that appear:
From Bruce Greenberg's Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains: 1901-1942, Vol. II: O and OO Gauges (not the greatest screen shot but you can see numerous "semi-scale" references highlighted) :
So, what can we say? Lionel has used it from at least 1939 into the 2000's. Embrace it! 
Tom
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So, what can we say? Lionel has used it from at least 1939 into the 2000's
I was curious as to whether Lionel used the term "semi-scale" to describe any of their trains. I looked at two of the prewar catalogs I have, 1938 and 1940.
I did not see any places where Lionel used the term "semi-scale"
While we collectors use the term "semi-scale" to describe the 2900 series cars, such as the 2957 caboose, Lionel did not. Lionel called them "Scale"
Lionel referred to their 002 and 004 "00" Hudson sets as "Modified scale"
(The 001 and 003 sets were called "Super-Detailed".)
The 763 was also described as being a "scale model"
Semi-scale means traditional-sized trains, usually much shorter than scale counterparts and intended for tight 3-rail curves in the toy train field.
I prefer the term traditional, because semi-scale can be read as "half scale," if you use the first definition of Merriam-Webster's dictionary. But the second definition does suggest it means "partial" or not complete, so technically semi-scale is a valid term.
To my knowledge, no manufacturer ever used the term to describe scale models that had fewer details. That would just add to the confusion.
And you can't call semi-scale trains "Lionel." As in "That's a K-Line Lionel model" or "That's a Williams Lionel model."
So, please, let's all settle on this simple definition and not complicate it with our own interpretations
All 3-rail track is "semi-scale"...1/45 rather than 1/48. With that in mind, donwooryabouit.
It's a shame that operators need to redefine a term that is already in wide use among collectors, and has been for years. I think doing so just leads to problems communicating and confusion.
I agree with C W above. Scale is true to prototype in all aspects. Semi-scale uses a rubber ruler to give the impression of a credible facsimile of the prototype.
As Jim R has pointed out, the first definition of "semi" means half, as in "semicircle of track", which clearly doesn't mean a vague description of a portion of a circle of track. The choice to use the prefix "semi" with scale to describe something not to scale was poor at best.
How about the prefixes: "quasi" or "pseudo"?
And yes, I know the term "semi-scale" has been around the model railroad community for what seems like eons. So, I doubt there will be a change, but it does seem odd that the "precise", true to scale group find the use of the vague term "semi-scale" is a better term than "traditional" to describe less than scale model railroad equipment.
Also, being of a strong mathematical background, I like the use of "scale" to be limited to the dimensions of, say, a locomotive and not to include the degree of detail on the locomotive. In describing the locomotive, you would need to include whether is was to scale dimensions and then indicate the level of detail in prototypical representation, i.e., simply being "to scale" says little as to its level of prototypical detail, but would need to be compared to a known model's level of prototypical detail. And I know that is a mouthful, but I know of no 1:48 model locomotive that is precise in prototypical detail of every part bolted, riveted, or welded onto it.
'Semi-Scale' is like 'Lash-Up', also incorrect, but everyone uses it (except Rich) and knows it's meaning.
Joe Hohmann posted:All 3-rail track is "semi-scale"...1/45 rather than 1/48. With that in mind, donwooryabouit.
You've struck fools gold! I.e. cheap ammo, lol.
2 rail scale in O gauge isn't scale either.
If the gauge is really 1:45 and the loco is only 1:48 2 rail trains are semi scale also. That makes them toys not models by the 2rscale folks own definition, no? Looks like those 1:45 trains from overseas are the only true models around.
Semi scale will always be the smaller than 1:48 to me.
The prefix semi doesn't have a single firm definition. A numerical ratio can't be applied because of variances requiring averages, ie guesses ie the ratio isn't truely defined.
The vernacular is all we have and all this only convinces me Dante must have been an early model railroad fan too.
This is "unwinnable" by anyone, but carry on...rotflmao
