So another York is over.....

I have often told Eastern Division officials that I would be happy to publish a feature story about the largest toy train meet on earth.  I'm not going to strong-arm them.  All they need do is pick up the phone and make the arrangements for coverage of a future event.

Personally, in light of the considerable obstacles the Eastern Div. would be faced with in making it a public event on, for example, Saturday, that's not something I strongly care about lobbying for one way or the other.

let OGR do a photo story on the show with hall pictures showing what people are missing

That would be nice. I think there is more than just me that would like to see pictures of the event.

Larry Sr is right on with getting pictures of the halls out there. I can explain how great York is but pictures are worth a thousand words !! If not in OGR than how about the TCA Quarterly.

Photographs would go a long way in promoting this event.  If the EDTCA is concerned with member privacy with regards to photography, they could hire the photographer themselves and limit the photography to the dealer halls, and then they could decide which photographs would be released to the public (through OGR, CTT, TCA Quarterly and on their own web site) for promotional purposes.  They would only have to do this once and could re-use the photos over and over again.

Andy

It wasn't the issue of mobs of people walking the isles gabbing away but it definitely was the issue of individuals calling one another about looked-for-trains and "holding" the item until the other person arrived.  My sample consisted of three such instances on my one day of visiting.  The things they were "holding" weren't items I was looking for but I'm sure that day will come.

Personally, in light of the considerable obstacles the Eastern Div. would be faced with in making it a public event on, for example, Saturday, that's not something I strongly care about lobbying for one way or the other.

Allan, what obstacles are you refering too?

quote:

It wasn't the issue of mobs of people walking the isles gabbing away but it definitely was the issue of individuals calling one another about looked-for-trains and "holding" the item until the other person arrived.  My sample consisted of three such instances on my one day of visiting.  The things they were "holding" weren't items I was looking for but I'm sure that day will come.

This is the real problem with allowing personal communications devices. Worse would be calling a friend who isn't even at the show.  I don't expect that Operators would have much concern over this issues. Collectors who are looking for difficult to locate items will.  

In my other hobbies, Classic cars and plastic models, all national events that are growing and thriving are PUBLIC events.  Events in those hobbies that are restricted to members only are going away and shrinking in scale. I'd more than likely attend if it became a public event. Have member days only Friday and Sunday but Sat open. I think dealers and manufactures would benefit along with the hobby in general.

Yes I think the event was excellent

I agree with opening the event on Saturday to the public, and as noted by others more publicity with in the hobby.

I spoke with the VP of EDTCA at the show, and yes there is a tax exemption issue,  but that applies only to the members who sell at the show, dealers are already required to pay tax.  The members that display are already in separate halls from the dealers and the displays.

It is pretty straight forward to allow say people with badges (members) in any hall, and those with say wristbands (the public) to the dealer and display halls.

If you are not moving forward  you are really moving backwards.  Together we all need to grow the hobby for the future, and that means including more people.

Stupid to open the meet to the public. If the public want's to come to the meet, let them join the TCA. If they can't afford $35., they can't afford to be there.

I agree that they need to make Saturday open to the public.  The Rocky Mountain TCA shows are completely open to the public and very successful.  I believe that they do a LOT to bring new people into the hobby.  I would think that the manufacturers would want this too and I'm hoping that they are pushing the EDTCA that way.

eddie

don't try to confuse us by using common sense.

what would they do,charge the public $20 for entry to the dealer halls? i can see the good and bad of doing it both ways. maybe best to leave it as is. [open 3 days, tca member only,1 time as a guest].-jim

Well said. NO....a family is not going to spend $70 PLUS admission to get into a toy train show.  That's more than most will spend for the entire event. Growing the hobby needs to be at least ONE of the goals for a train show.

Unless ED sends out a ballot, our opinions, as with cell phones (hey, while I was against it because I figured BIG FOOT would be at the center aisle cross point flailing his arms like a three year old, to block traffic in all directions, and shouting into an electronic toy) will count for naught....not true..I only saw, in my races through all the halls, three dealers in chairs, talking on phones, and that, quietly.  Equals non issue.  I do think that York should either open early Thursday, rather than have people standing around half the day, or stay open later Saturday.  Saturday makes sense for working stiffs....not everybody can get off from work....and it dried up fast this past Saturday.  Many train shows I am familiar with, are Sat. and Sun.  Why not 3 days, Fri-Sun.?  Then people who have jobs would have at least a two day shot at the dregs left over from Friday or would only have to take one day off?

Forget letting in the public....Eddie has that right...the public, if they can't spring for

the membership, have plenty of Greenberg and other shows (in which I have been

finding little lately) in that area to go to.  Serious collectors belong to TCA...transient

once a year holiday shoppers can attend those public shows or find a train shop.

We're trying to grow the hobby.  The public needs to see the show to determine if the hobby is interesting.  Forcing them to become TCA members, before they know if they're interested, defeats the purpose.

I did join the TCA so I could attend York but I also appreciate the security it brings when I make a purchase from a TCA member.

"The public needs to see the show to determine if the hobby is interesting."

I just don't think I can buy into that one. How many of you attended York and then became involved in the hobby after the fact? (You can attend as a guest to rebut those who will say you have to be a TCA member to get in.) I'll bet there are precious few who did it in that order.

Apart from that, how interesting would it be for the general public walking into one of the halls (say the Blue or the Silver) and looking at all those piles of stuff laying on tables?

If you want to let them in somewhere gratis, let them in the layout hall! If that doesn't interest them, they aren't going to care about the rest! If they then express interest in joining, you could have someone there to sign them up.

Simon

Help me out here. When I asked about attending as a 'guest' I was told it was possible to do so. So when I aksed about cost it was going to be the same as joining the TCA. Why??? It's a catch 22. I can't go unless I join....don't want to join unless I can see if it's something I can benefit from.

Your right about plenty of shows open to the public and I will continue to go to those. If York ever becomes public I will more than likely attend as it's closer than iHobby in Chicago. But I am not sitting here 'wishing' TCA would change for me....just thinking how the best of the best might grow the hobby .....thus more potential TCA members. BTW.....what's the average age of a TCA member???

The "average age" is "old."  Look at my lovely hairline!

Yes, perhaps (depending on what you define as "old"), and in most cases reasonably "settled" in life and having the discretionary funds to sustain and support the hobby.  Some in the younger crowd need to be cognizant of that simple fact.

This hobby--and I mean ALL scales in the hobby--has always been supported by a somewhat older demographic.  Simple fact as well, and it is not likely to change.

And if you're sincere about wanting change, you need to become actively involved.  No excuses and no simple rantings on an online forum.  Get off your rear and get active in the organization if you want to see changes made.  It has to come from within.

Are you sure it is $70+

I thought when I joined it included the wife and kids as well.

Is that wrong?

This hobby--and I mean ALL scales in the hobby--has always been supported by a somewhat older demographic.

Not true, the industry is aging. I have been going to York for over 40 years and back in the seventies it was in the 30's now it is in the sixties. Show me a 20 something buying a tinplate or postwar item. Or a modern item for that fact. They are far and few!

Question, concerning things at the York show, does the ED rank and file vote on how the meet is run, cell phones, strollers, pictures, meet schedule, etc. or are these things decided by a board of some sort? I seem to recall in another thread that the York Meet Event Director lobbied the ED board for 18 months to get the cell phone rule relaxed:

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/16353414147282386

If they are decided by a board how do they receive any input from members?

Do we have to go to some sort of meeting at York, a letter writing campaign, have someones ear? I've written several times about York and I've never received so much as a "Thanks for your letter" from anyone other than someone telling me they have passed this on to so and so. Seems this would be the logical way to get anything to change other than us butting heads here on the forum but if no one responds to a letter or e-mail how do we know anyone is even paying any attention to us? And worse would be an elected official ignoring a member simply because they don't agree with them which I hope doesn't happen. I know Mr. Edgar used to weigh in here on various things TCA but how many other TCA officials even just lurk in here and the other forums out there just to gauge what is being discussed out here?

Jerry

I don't know who told you that the cost of going as a guest was the same as joining.  The cost of a guest to attend is the same as that of a member: $13.50 ($12.00 if done by mail) if pre-registered or $20 at the door.  At least that was the case the last time I took a guest.

Andy

There are plenty of regular train shows for the "general public" to attend if they wish (in that area) especially Allentown, Gilbertsville and the Greenberg shows, to name a few. I believe there's even a few regular TCA shows held at the York Toyota building throughout the year that they can "open up" to the general public (maybe they already do?). The twice yearly York meet is a wonderful perk for being a TCA member, join and go as often as you wish. Joe

WHOA!!! I have no desire to change the TCA. I have been at the top of a number of national hobby type organizations. I don't need that any longer. All I am saying is if an organizations stated goal is support and promotion of a said hobby....they need to be a bit more public. If TCA wants to toughen it's admission policy's that's their business.  I just feel this hobby could use the exposure the TCA could offer. BUT change the TCA.....that's up to them.     (they may want to look at it as part of a survival plan BTW)

Yes, another York is over. My family and I had a blast and managed to find many many super items at very fair prices to load the trunk full with. It is an incredible event for all us tain hobbyists. I am thankful that it happens, and twice a year. I'm sure it takes a tremendous amount of planning, origanizing ans good old cash to run a show of that size. As always it was run very well.  

Ogaugeguy, the members only closed to the public status of the meet allows the members to sell without collecting sales tax, the dealers still have to collect sales tax, there is no chicanery here. This is how it was explained to me why the public isn't allowed, it would change things for all the selling members if it were open to the public. Now this may change one day if the revenuers decided this is an untapped resource...

Jerry

I don't know about the York Meet 40 years ago (I was in N scale at the time), but several surveys of the hobby in general done in earlier decades including the 1940s and 1950s (none recently that I know of) clearly showed the average participant's age to be 50+.

Certainly there were/are younger folks also involved, and that's great--heck, I was in my 30s when I got back in the hobby with N scale--but I recall being in the decidedly younger minority at events and conventions I attended at the time (NMRA Nationals, N-Trak conventions, etc.).  I haven't seen that change one bit over the years.

Jerry has it correct.

Sorry for the confusion with my post.

TCA members who are dealers, those showing in the dealer halls are required by the state, and required by EDTCA to be registered with the PA tax agency, and to pay sales tax.  Even if they choose not to collect it from customers. (6%)

TCA member who are not dealers - selling in the other halls, do not need to collect or pay sales tax because only other members are purchasing from them (it is a closed event).

The red herring that is pointed out about making the event open to the public is that everyone would have to pay sales tax - which based on my discussion with the ED officer would not be the case.  

My point is that the event already splits member/dealers and member/non-dealers into separate halls to sell their products so it would be pretty straight forward to allow a broader access to the dealer and display halls and and retain the member only access to the member halls and not impact the tax status.

I hope this clarifies my tax statement.

IIRC, it cost me $10 or $15 to register the entire family, myself included, in advance.  Where's the $70 come from?  

Dave,

It was quite awhile back when I went the first time as a guest (you can only do so once), but I think I paid about $8 or $9. Seems to me that annual membership was $25 back then. It DEFINITELY DID NOT cost me what it cost me to join, just to attend that first (for me) show. If I paid more than a regular member did for admission, it was no more than $1! Obviously, things have gone up since then, but it doesn't make any sense that the cost of entry to the show should be the same as an annual  membership.

Simon

I agree with Rich 883's comments.  There is a clear split between dealer halls and member halls ( members selling to other members ) Taxes being collected at the dealer halls and allowing public to have access to those halls only.  Member halls ONLY admit members and trading goes on as it always has and hopefully always will.

Yes there are regional train shows around, throughout the country, which the public can attend .... but face it, none of them come close to the York show.  I have attended regional shows and never have seen all the major train manufactures ( only Weaver at two show in Timonium) under one roof.

If the public were allowed access to the Orange Hall alone they would be amazed at all the wonderful possibllities this hobby has to offer.   The energy in that hall is infectious for anyone attending. I feel the excitement every time I walk in the Orange Hall.   I think that alot of people ( younger ones and older alike ) would get hooked on this hobby by opening the dealer halls and display layout halls to the public on Saturday only.  Thursday and Friday are for members only ... no public.... and open the show Thursday morning so members can have more time.

TCA could set up a booth in the lobby of Orange and take/distribute membership apps. and grow the membership.  ED could grow leaps and bounds because most of the people attending on Saturday would be within their jurisdiction.  Ill bet there would be many in the public who would like to get those great deals in the members halls ... and of course to do so they would have to join TCA..... if not right away perhaps at a later date.

As for the manufactures .... where on earth are they going to have the opportunity to have their products checked out up close and first hand by thousands of newcomers just attending to "check out" the hobby.  Young folks could see all the new cool train technology and yes they could even run trains from their cell phones and computers ... and for todays younger folks that is BIG! ( how bout Lionel's new video game advertised in the latest catologue! )  There are alot of young folks who have no idea of what this hobby has to offer in the way of the latest technology and they could see it ALL at York in the Orange Hall.... and interact directly with the manufacture's reps.

As for dealers .... they will sell more product .... at least the ones selling trains and accessories ..... maybe not the ones selling the high end turn tables and bridges ... but who knows these high end dealers may get residual sales.... and so might the custom layout builders too! 

As for ED .... they would make ( hopefully ) thousands of dollars by admitting the general public for one day only.  I realize too .... that by extending Sat. hours  to 5 p.m.( or whenever )  for the general public there would be additional costs incurred by ED .... but I would bet after the additional expenses were paid, the admission price to the public would rake in a sizable profit for ED.

This one day event could be promoted through social media, regular network TV, and cable stations... plus good old fashion newspapers.  Newspapers would probably love to do an advance story on the worlds largest train show now opening it's doors to the public for one day only.  Again ... free advertising and a great way to promote the hobby.

Why not invite the news crew of several TV stations with outlets in all major metropolitan areas within 2 hours of York to come on Thursday.  Nothing like free advertising.

As for Saturdays at York ... there would be a beehive of activity, excitement, dealers selling trains, and new folks coming into the hobby. It look like a win win to me.  

I'm sue there are obstacles that I may not be aware of.  I do know that there are creative ways to working around and through obstacles.

Can't hurt to try it.!

Cheers and Happy Railroading!

Patrick W

Free State Junction Railway

"A Conduit Line for Maryland's Class 1 Railroads and Short Lines of the Transition Era."

Some York Meet Sudden Thoughts and Second Thoughts:

*Here is my attempt at the impossible; to try to make everyone happy.  Have the Member's Halls (Blue, Silver, Red & White) open only on regular hours Thursday & Friday, and 9am to Noon on Saturday.  Dealer's Halls (Purple, Brown & Orange) open regular hours Thursday, Friday and extend the Saturday hours to 5pm, allowing the public to attend from Noon to 5pm.  Have a few kiosks in the Orange Hall entrance with TCA applications and a brochure explaining the benefits of membership.  This way TCA members still get first shot at available product and the public gets in to check it out so dealers can make more sales.  The kiosks could possibly entice the public to join and grow membership numbers.  Probably a feasibility study is needed on this.

*It's fascinating to me that the TCA and/or the TCA Eastern Division would not jump through hoops to have an all encompassing article in any of the model train magazines.  Especially when they are trying so hard to grow membership.  Imagine someone new to the hobby, or an interested child seeing the pictures and reading about the Meet as the place to be, to see, learn about and buy trains of all types.

*One issue that the Meet lacks in attracting kids and new members are the lack of operating layouts.  Of course, the York Meet was originally meant for collectors, but to really attract people to the hobby, they have to see the product in action.  Is the York Meet a good venue for that?  I don't know, but it could and should be with the current aspect of operating trains.

*If my scenario for the York Meet operating hours above isn't feasible, is there a dealer or group of dealers who could organize and negotiate with the Eastern Division / York Fairgrounds to rent out the Fairgrounds for the whole day on Saturday for the public, since they are there already anyway?  I guess the hardest part of that would be to get the volunteers necessary (security, registrations, bathroom facilities, etc.) to make it work.  I know there's been talk in the past of dealers having their own show, but I haven't seen it or heard anything for awhile.

*If the Meet was to be open for the public at any point, where does this 'public' come from?? Aren't most people who are train enthusiasts already attending?  Would that many more people attend from the surrounding region??  Is the city of York big enough to draw in additional attendees?  And without operating layouts, what other than rows and rows of tables and booths of items for sale is there to get new people interested, retain that interest and make them want more??  Maybe the Eastern Division is happy with the way it is as a gathering of members only to buy and sell amongst themselves and not turn it into a "World's Greatest Hobby" show.

*Probably what is needed are more frequent "World's Greatest Hobby" shows in more regions of the country to promote the hobby to the unknowing public.  Or would that be too much saturation?

* The relaxing of the cell phone rule in the Halls is just ghastly!  A phone call I received in the Orange Hall caused me to be 10 minutes late to the OGR Grandstand meeting!!    

Time's yours.

If the "public" does not want to join the TCA, they can attend the Greenberg show in the Orange Hall next January...or the 6 shows per year in nearby Timonium.

Some of you seem to forget...PUBLIC=sales tax collection at member tables on Sat.

Also...can I assume the public gets in for free on Saturday, while TCA members have to pay for the privilage of shopping Thursday and Friday?

How does allowing the public into York get us dolls and replacement windows in the halls? I don't follow.

As Rich883 pointed out an ED official told him the taxes wouldn't be an issue with members if so that's off the table as a hindrance. 

Seems to me at least a dialogue with the ED needs to be opened.

Jerry

Public shows like Greenberg have one building and one door to get in. How would you deal with many buildings and doors?