Southern Pacific Daylight passenger cars

Rob,

 

You pretty much have your choice of 15", 18" or 21".  Lionel has made 15" and 18" versions, and I recall K-Line had issued a 21" set about 10 years ago before they fell off the map.

 

I'm gonna assume you're in the market for the 18" models... in which case you'll have your choice of heavyweights (detailed plastic) or streamliners (Lionel aluminum or MTH ABS plastic).

 

Currently stores are still carrying Lionel's newest 18" run of Shasta Daylight cars -- technically made for the PA Alco diesels, but I think they'd look just fine behind a GS2/GS4 steamer 'cause I'm as far from a rivet counter as you can get.    These may be the easiest of the Lionel Daylight cars to find right now.  At York, the big dealers priced the 4-pack plus 2-pack for $635-$650 to give you a nice 6-car set of 18" models, which was a $75-$100 savings off what you'd typically pay.  (MSRP is much more.)

 

Check Lionel's and MTH's website product finders, and you'll get all the info you'll need for anything made since 2000.

 

Happy hunting!

 

David

>>>You pretty much have your choice of 15", 18" or 21".  Lionel has made 15" and 18" versions, and I recall K-Line had issued a 21" set about 10 years ago before they fell off the map.<<

 

If non-prototypical doesn't bother you (SP never ran heavyweights),  LTI Lionel made a beautiful five car Bakelite set of 15" heavyweights back in 1994.

Not easy to find but very nice...

Joe

 

I'm currently looking in my early SP books. It does seem to me that SP used heavyweights behind the early cabforwards, They ran North out of CA. I'm trying to verify. Yes, the GS4 pulled only streamlined cars.

Some head end cars were repainted HW DL.

Quote: "Yes, the GS4 pulled only streamlined cars."

So does that mean cars that look like they belong behind an F7 or similar? I don't know much about passenger cars so please excuse the questions. I want to find the RIGHT cars that belong behind my GS2.

Rob

Are you guys kidding? In 1949 and 1950 I would visit my grandparents, who lived in the Arizona and New Mexico Depot in Fairbank Arizona.  I could look out the kitchen door and watch trains - one every half hour or so.

Double-shotted GS-4s with mixed heavyweight consists were routine.  Less routine, but still once a day, was the Golden State, which often had GS-4 power, and a mix of heavy and light cars, alternately named Golden State or Golden Rocket.  The Daylight Diesels started pulling these trains in 1950, and by 1955 all the steam had moved to California.

I rode in heavyweight "Clover Acres" from Benson to New Orleans in 1951 - we started behind a Mountain, changed to a Cab Forward in Lordsburg, and diesels at El Paso.  The train was the Daily Argonaut.

Here is one of my Daylights:

So actually, I can pull whatever I can buy behind my GS2 and be correct? I found these great pics. Fans of the Daylight Special will want to see them.

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/spdylght.htm

Rob

I think what we have here is the concept that there were matched consit of cars all the time.  Also, the GS did run in valley, the SUNSET route, and to Oregon.

 

The DL GS also pulled TTG trains as the LARK.

Unfortunately, they won't. The colors on the Shasta Daylight are different from the Daylight colors on the Lionel GS-2 and GS-4 and the passenger cars that were made to go with them. Some folks won't care, but to me running colorful engines like the Daylights with cars that have different shades of colors isn't going to work. Just me.

 

All the Lionel Daylight passengers made since the original 15" aluminum cars from the 80s, including the later 14" Heavyweights, 18" aluminum streamliners, and 19" Heavyweights, match the Lionel GS-2s and GS-4s, both the traditional versions and the scale versions. Even though these engines and cars span decades of production, the colors are remarkably identical. Lionel did an outstanding job of color matching with these. The Shasta Daylight PAs and their matching streamliners, however, use different shades of oranges in their colors (which seems prototypical, given SP advertisement pictures from the time.

 

The 18" streamliners that were made to go with the GS steamers are nearly impossible to find, especially by themselves, so some folks use the non-scale older 15" aluminum streamliners behind their scale GS engines. They have passenger silouettes, incidently, no interiors. I'm not sure how hard the scale heavyweights are to find - probably not easy, but I'd imagine a little easier than the scale streamlined version.

 

If you use other manufacturers' cars, the colors won't be a match with those that Lionel used. At least that was true until fairly recently, because I haven't seen the most recent MTH incarnations. But I've seen all the previous MTH, K-Line and Williams cars, and they don't match the Lionel colors. To some it won't matter, but to me it makes for an unacceptable clash of colors.

My Legacy GS-4 is pulling heavyweights, but I bought them and the loco as a set on eBay. GGD made streamliners as did K-line. Pull what you like, the HW's look great and I even have a K-line service express boxcar in the consist. 

 

Yes... the colors are indeed a shade different.  But quite frankly, when I placed the Shasta Daylight cars next to a TMCC Daylight GS-4 at the train store, I could EASILY live with the difference.  In fact I could easily insert a couple of MTH's newer SP heritage color-scheme cars into a Daylight train as well -- just to spice things up!    

 

For those that may be wondering... the GS2/4 Daylight steamers have a brighter orange/red vs. the slightly muted Shasta Daylight colors -- both from Lionel.  The newer MTH offering I mentioned has passenger cars that match the SP SD70ACe heritage locomotive (predominantly black with orange/red stripes).  But thus far they've just catalogued/delivered a few cars (slpr/vista/extra coach) -- not an entire set with an observation.  So if you're gonna use these at all right now, you're probably gonna run them with an existing Daylight train anyway.

 

Each to his own.

 

David

Due to aging because of sun and weathr, plus some differences between batches, paint between locos and cars could be diffent in the wild.

To clarify a couple of the above posts, the SP had plenty of heavyweight cars, but I have seen it written in several sources that no SP heavyweights were painted in Daylight colors. I have a Lionel SP 4-4-2 in Daylight colors (which is prototypical, from the San Joaquin Daylight), and I run it with a set of K-Line 15" heavyweights in Daylight colors (quite likely not prototypical, but hey, it's a toy). 

 

As far as I know, the most prototypical Daylight cars around were made recently by Golden Gate Depot. These were scale size and reproduced the articulated car sets that were included in the original train. 

That's right! As I said before, some folks aren't bothered by the off colors. That makes life easier!  

 

But people who weren't aware of this may want to know that there are color variations, and having a Daylight engine from one manufacturer doesn't mean that they will find the same matching color passenger cars from someone else. I have a friend who spent a lot on a Lionel scale GS engine, and then was dismayed to discover that the MTH cars he bought didn't match the engine. He said that if he'd known, he wouldn't have bought the engine. Of course, some people wouldn't have that reaction.

 

For me, I don't want to spend $1300 (or more) on a scale GS-4 and then have to run it with different colored cars. I have some posters of the GS Daylight trains in operation during their heyday, and they're not running with a bunch of different colored passenger cars. As I said earlier, that's just me. One of my hangups is matching colors on premier passenger trains. Life's complicated.

Someone already posted, above, about the Golden Gate Depot SCALE SP Daylight train set, and I can tell you all that it is the best set on the market, in 3-Rail, if you are able to run scale length passenger cars. I have a number of MTH GS-4 models and the Lionel Legacy GS-4, and all look great pulling the 12 car train set.

 

I must admit however, that we get more positive comments at train shows, when one of my black MTH GS-4 models is handling the train. If you are trying to model early 1950s thru mid 1950s, a "black Daylight" GS-4 is more prototypical anyway, then you have absolutely no concerns about color matching! Since all my steam locomotives are weathered anyway, I have never received any comments about the color of the locomotive "not matching" the train colors.  

I appreciate all the information given here. I will never have enough room for scale length cars, so the shorter ones are what I want.

Breezunup, I would love to see some pics of those Daylight posters you have.

Rob

Just to clarify, during the steam era, most SP Heavyweights were Pullman green, or a shade lighter.  Very few heavyweights were painted orange and red.  The Daylight 4-8-4s could be seen pulling long strings of olive green mail and baggage cars.

 

Only later did they return to gray for coaches.

Rob, I saw on the BuySell board that you picked up a Lionel traditional-sized GS-2. I had that engine once myself years ago. Just my opinion, but a good bet for you is to get on the Bay and check on Lionel SP Daylight passenger cars, either the 15" streamlined version or the 14" Heavyweight version. The streamliners are more available, and usually there are a number for sale by multiple people, so they're easy to find. Lionel made about 8 different cars for this set; the diner and the vista-dome are the hardest to find, or at least they used to be. However, that market has changed a lot in the past 20 years, so all of the cars should be pretty obtainable.

 

Lionel originally came out with their traditional GS-4 (same engine chassis as their N&W J, but with added shrouding), together with Daylight F-3 ABAs, and the matching aluminum streamlined passenger cars. Some years later, they came out with the GS-2. The GS-2 is pretty much exactly the same as the earlier GS-4, except the lettering on the tender is different and the nose has a single headlight instead of the double version on the GS-4. Lionel had Railsounds by the time the GS-2 came out, so R/S are in that engine. Lionel marketed the set of 14" Daylight Heavyweights when they came out with the GS-2. As I mentioned before, the colors on all these engines and cars are identical, so they can be interchanged at will.

 

One more thing about colors. Certainly more passenger trains had mixed cars than didn't, and even some of the big name trains occasionally had things like through sleepers in their consist that belonged to different lines, or baggage and mail cars that were different. However, the classic top passenger trains during the heyday of rail passenger operations were the pride of each of their railroads. They made every attempt to run them with matching cars, and clean cars; in fact, they were often put through washers after each run so they would look clean and bright for their next outing. Santa Fe even went so far as to spray on a fresh dusting of silver paint on the trucks of the engines and cars before the Chiefs hit the road again.

 

Of course, as times changed, and the fortunes of passenger service changed, the railroads became less fastidious about maintaining the appearance of their passenger trains. However, in the day, trains like the Great Northern Empire Builder, NP Northcoast Limited, SP Daylights, NYC 20th Century Ltd., UP City trains, Illinois City of New Orleans and City of Miami, Santa Fe Chief and Super Chief, California Zephyr, CNW 400, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha, and many others were run with clean, matching cars if at all possible. They were the showboats of those lines and were important for publicity purposes as well as transportation.

 

I've seen quotes from various presidents of railroads at that time proclaiming (in often colorful language) that they were not going to allow their finest passenger trains to look like anything but first-class. Even the boxcars and reefers on the lines had slogans proudly saying "Route of the Streamliners" or "Way of the Zephyrs" or "Route of the 400" or "Route of the Super Chief" or whatever. They didn't run those crack trains with a mishmash of different colored, sun-faded, unmatched cars.

 

I had the entire Lionel Daylight set of 15" passenger cars listed on the OGR forum for a couple months... and someone just purchased 8 of the 10 cars last week.  Sorry you missed it, but if you're in need of FULL vista dome cars, I still have two extra that the buyer didn't want.

 

Unfortunately, dealers played a lot of games with the diner and regular vista-dome cars back in the 1980's and 1990's -- mostly to drive prices up to ridiculous levels and make a quick profit.    True... some cars were often part of year-end "collector packs" back then and were typically produced in smaller quantities... but nowadays, you'd be foolish to pay "premium" prices for them.  Don't fall prey to anyone still trying to sell those as "rare" or "difficult to find".  Just look around... they're out there... and you'll likely be able to hold out for ones in excellent to like-new condition.  Since the collector heyday is long gone, you'll even find like-new cars at VERY reasonable prices these days.

 

Happy Daylight hunting!!!

 

David

 

I remember back in the late 80's early 90's Lionel released a Madison Set of

SP Daylight Cars for the GS-2 Daylight with early Railsounds.  The Madison Set

was selling at train meets I attended back then for $500.00 for a four car set.

 

The Market at that time was willing to pay that price.  I have seen these cars and

the Aluminum Cars (MPC, LTI) at meets in recent years going for $250.00 to 

$325.00 for four car sets.  I agree with RockyMountaineer that you should be

cautious if you pruchase these cars.  They are not rare.  Good Topic.

 

Many thanks,

 

Billy C 

A couple of years ago I bought the Lionel #6-11127 Legacy GS-4 Daylight, #4436.  At that time I bought the Lionel #6-25506 Heavyweight 4-Pack Passenger cars to go with it.  The passenger cars are 18" long and were just under $500.  Here's a pic of my observation car, Lionel's catalog pic, and my GS-4.  These cars were most recently featured in Lionel's 2008, Volume 1 catalog.  Matt

>>>>I remember back in the late 80's early 90's Lionel released a Madison Set of

SP Daylight Cars for the GS-2 Daylight with early Railsounds.  The Madison Set

was selling at train meets I attended back then for $500.00 for a four car set.

 

The Market at that time was willing to pay that price.  I have seen these cars and

the Aluminum Cars (MPC, LTI) at meets in recent years going for $250.00 to 

$325.00 for four car sets.  I agree with RockyMountaineer that you should be

cautious if you pruchase these cars.  They are not rare.  Good Topic.<<<

 

 

 

not that it matters much but those madison SP heavyweights were more expensive because they were made in America and produced in Bakelite.

Also, the set had a fifth separate sale baggage car that is quite rare today.

Joe

I have all the aluminum cars made for the recent lionel GS2/4 short of the station sounds diner. They can be seen with the legacy gs4 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...&feature=g-all-c

The aluminum streamlined passenger cars also were made in America at that time (they were produced in 1982-83). I always thought that these cars represented the best of MPC aluminum car production - a very complicated paint scheme (multiple colors of orange with black roofs and all divided by 4 sets of silver striping, with silver doors and separate colored end pieces, etc.), beautifully done.

 

I'd forgotten about that extra heavyweight separate sale baggage, cataloged after the 4-car set came out. Fewer of those were made than the sets.