Southern Pacific "Daylight" Steam Engine - Vision vs. Legacy?

Just from memory, ONLY the current Vision Line models of the SP GS-4 locomotives are correct.

Thanks for the note. The Legacy engine is the first listed, and the Vision is the second.

When I compared Lionel’s normal model # descriptions there were just a few differences, e.g.:

Vision engine has reciprocating cylinder steam, force coupler, kinematic drawbar, bicolor classification lights and controller to change between white and green, 5 different whistles to choose from, 5 levels of bell pitching.

Not sure if Dynachuff, IR Transmitter, and current speed and fuel and coal loading dialog in Legacy engine is also on Vision engine.

I am hoping OGR forum experts can verify or correct these “differences” and offer opinions on whether diffs are worth $400-$500 more for Vision,

If anyone has seen both of the run, do the have equivalent pull power and running stability.

Have you seen either of these? Please share your views.

Thanks

@Ken Gillig posted:

Hi All,

" I am trying to understand how to answer this - whether I should invest in a '4449' GS-4 that is Legacy or Vision"

Not sure "Invest" is the correct term😉 Get whichever you like and meets your financial comfort zone. Unless Lionel completely redid the boiler and tender tooling (and I'd have no idea what was wrong with it if anything) I'd guess they would be the same other than new features.

You are right - invest is not really the right word. It would help me knowing the feature differences in the Vision over the Legacy, or the features in Legacy not included in the Vision (which I read by others in the OGR posts this has happened as Legacy items moved “up” into Vidion).

Once that is clear in my head I am sure I will know better what features I want vs. can live without and decide which of these two engines to focus on trying to acquire.

From my experience and knowledge of the real SP 4449 (40+ years on the crew), the most accurate Lionel model is the Vision line.

I have the Visionline.

What makes in notable and the price difference.

#1 3 speaker system. 1 inside the engine, 2 inside the tender. This alone is a HUGE difference.

"Dual Sounds

#2 Reciprocating cylinder steam is a big deal. This is the parlor trick of this engine.

#3 Force coupler- this is another cool feature. It does sense load and increase the labor chuff dynamically. Another huge and worthwhile feature.

Again, just on hardware /electronc features alone:

3 smoke features in the Visionline (Main, reciprocating cylinder, and dynamo) VS, only 2 in Legacy (main, whistle steam)

3 speaker system with 2 sounds cards, one in the engine and 2 speakers and separate sound card in tender VS 2 in tender only on Legacy version

Legacy version is pre-Bluetooth (not saying bluetooth is a showstopper or must have) where the Visionline is with Bluetooth control

Only the Visionline has force coupler sensing that dynamically changes the chuffing based on actual real tractive force.

Forgot another major feature of the Visionline- 5 different Whistles and City horns.

The sounds alone sold me on this engine- everything else was just bonus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPjDdW-JYyk

You just helped me decide what to run at the club Thursday.

Good video of the reciprocating cylinder steam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTxJ8RkdIg

Again, with a whistle that can make the people down the street wet the bed. Fire this thing up at 1AM full bore.

Thank you all for your comments so far!

The videos were terrific. Vernon, your comments on functions a big help. iI admit I have a little learning to fully understand some features, but these are bending me to Vision rather than the Legacy model. Knowing that the Lionel's Vision '4449' is its best version of the real thing is also helpful.

What about 'Dynachuff, IR Transmitter, and current speed and fuel and coal loading dialog in Legacy', are these also in Vision? ... in my Vision descriptions I found these features were not mentioned except for the Legacy model, so it helps if people who have these can confirm what all is in each of these models.

I have to admit - getting input from you all makes me more anxious - I have been getting back into model RR after too many years and now seeing all these features compared to what I used to know with basic conventional power and control with little or no sound is very eye opening and appealing.

I now have to find out where I can find these kind of models, but that's half the fun and anticipation that builds my drive!

Thanks so much. I hope i hear from others who have experience with both or either of these:  (a.) 2016 Legacy model # 83193, (b.) 2020 Vision model # 2031520.

-Ken

@Ken Gillig posted:

Thank you all for your comments so far!

The videos were terrific. Vernon, your comments on functions a big help. iI admit I have a little learning to fully understand some features, but these are bending me to Vision rather than the Legacy model. Knowing that the Lionel's Vision '4449' is its best version of the real thing is also helpful.

What about 'Dynachuff, IR Transmitter, and current speed and fuel and coal loading dialog in Legacy', are these also in Vision? ... in my Vision descriptions I found these features were not mentioned except for the Legacy model, so it helps if people who have these can confirm what all is in each of these models

The short answer is yes that is all included.

The long answer and hopefully this will make sense.

At the heart of every Vision Line Locomotive is the Legacy Command System, in the Vision Line product line they simply pull out all the stops the very best features like the ones mentioned above are added to make it that much better. If they can any tooling is modified to be the most accurate model they can reasonably produce. And the sounds are amazing you get the road name and number specific crew talk back (that arguably should’ve stayed in the standard legacy line). Keep in mind everyone has their own preference as to the use or existence of Lionel’s crew talk.

I hope that gave you a little more information

Thanks zhubl for confirming features!

I certainly will now be better able to think through what features I want most or have to hear more about to decide.

I have several of Lionel’s GS model engines (the GS-2 from 2005, the Legacy GS-6 from 2013ish, and 4 of the Vision models: GS-1, GS-5, and 2 GS-4’s). As an SP nut, the Vision model is well worth the extra cost. The sound is spectacular and the changeable whistles is a great option. If you like smoke effects, the Vision models are very exciting. The cylinder steam effect steals the show and never gets old. I prefer the whistle steam over the dynamo steam personally. I did not buy any models with the dynamo steam because I thought it would be too much smoke with the 3 dynamos spewing out smoke at a constant rate. The whistle steam is much cooler IMO. The force coupler is very neat as well; you can really hear the exhaust intensity change when the loco digs into a grade.

As for accuracy, Lionel did make a few minor goofs on this run. The upper boiler for at least 2 of the GS-4 models was the wrong mold (the de-skirted 4439 and the black 4457 from the set). For these 2 they used the GS-2/6 upper boiler mold which only has 1 dynamo instead of 3. As far as I can tell, all the skirted GS-4 and 5 models were done correctly.

Mechanically speaking, the Vision model will be identical to all the recent Legacy models: same motor and gearing.

Ryan,

Thank you for your reply. Super helpful info on prior models as well as the comment on motor and gearing between the Vision and Legacy, especially if I (vs. someone who knows the engine interenals well) have to do any maintenance on my own.

-Ken

I didn't preorder the VL 4449....but got one last Summer from TrainWorld around July 4th.  (They were getting hard to come by, at the time.)

My loco showed up DOA....which is in no way a reflection of where I bought it from.

It went back to Lionel for repair and came back to me in relatively short order....although it took two more attempts to get the correct cover for the switches that are located behind the smokestack.

The model has run flawlessly since it came back from NC.  I found a nice set of passenger cars from someone on this Forum.

The VL 4449, five 18" passenger cars, and one 21" passenger cars have become my favorite set to run and have not been removed from my layout since I first placed them on it.  I'm really impressed with it, as is almost every guest that stops over.

Bottom line:  a VL Daylight won't be cheap, if you can find one.  But it's a great model and significantly better than the Legacy models....IMHO.

Since there have been several reports of QC issues with the VL engines, if you decide to persue one, I would suggest you require the seller to demo it before you purchase. Especially if you are buying it second hand. Don’t buy a mint in box model since you run the risk of there being a problem and you’ll be SOL on warranty from Lionel (unless you find a store that has one).

The earlier Legacy models have gotten easier to find and more affordable since the VL models came out. The 2016 Legacy engines were done with whistle steam but Lionel decided to put the whistle next to the stack which is where the it is currently located on 4449. In the SP days, the whistle would have been closer to the cab. The result on the model is the whistle steam got lost in the stack smoke which is why the VL 4449 model has dynamo steam instead of whistle steam.

This is my favorite YouTube video of the smoke effects on the VL 4449.  However, this guy has everything dialed in perfectly and heavily.  Do NOT expect this out of the box:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpB8sTGCxk0

Also, just for some viewing enjoyment....this comes from one of our Fellow Members:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPsbQBnrsSA

And the 2016 Legacy version, also from TrainMan Dan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg5tdtqtxOI

Ryan - great advice on getting the demo. I not local I could ask for a zoom demo. I also understand your council on the comment of NIB and being out of warranty when there may be "finicky" features.

I don’t like buying “mint in box” items unless they are from a dealer/store. I much prefer to buy modern pieces that have been operated and well taken care of, this way I know its a working model. I did train repair from 2005 to 2014 at a Lionel Service Station so I have seen my share of issues on new product.

Berkshire President,

Thanks for those three fantastic videos showing off SP. It was good to see the Vision 4449 agains the third video 2016 Legacy. Both are great, but the refinements in Vision add so much realism.

- Ken

Ryan - great to know, thanks again!

Not mentioned here, and not going to be on your list, but just for informaton the no. 11127 cataloged in 2008 was the first Legacy GS-4 that Lionel made, and has one of the most accurate horns. It has run flawlessly for me. Some say that Lionel engines made at that time were better built and more reliable. I don't know for sure if that's true, but all the engines I have from that time seem to be well made and very reliable. You'll probably opt for a newer version, though.

Small item, perhaps, but one thing I don't care for on the latest Vision versions is the overly bright classification lights. Almost blinding. Not sure why they were wired that way, or if this can be remedied without major surgery. Not a big deal to many, probably.

Hi breezinup,

Thanks for the note on your model 6-11127. On bright Vision car lights, I read somewhere where a guy had all passenger cars except the diner toned down in car brightness to match the dimmer appearance of the diner, I think using an electric device like a diode (?not sure). Granted anything similar done to your engine would be a “change”. Alternatively a lower voltage LED bulb replacement may be even easier.

- Ken

I bought the 2016 model when it came out, and after seeing the vision line model, I decided to stick with mine, for what it's worth.  The biggest thing that bothered me about the Vision model is the way Lionel painted the sides of the boiler a grey/silver color.  Imho, the 2016 model with black boiler sides looks much more prototypical.

Other thoughts:

- Lionel did a really good job with the speaker enclosure on this 2016 run, and it has the best, deepest sound of any of my Legacy steamers.  While the Vision is better, I am sure, if there was one model Lionel didn't NEED to do the Vision 3-speaker upgrade on, it would be this one.

- I'd rather have the whistle steam than the dynamo effect.  The cylinder steam however is very, very cool but does seem problematic, from the stories I've heard.

- I much prefer the blackened side rods of the 2016 run to the Vision.

- A point for me in favor of the Vision model is the 5 selectable whistles/horns.  The 2016 run only has a horn and a whistle which could, to my ears, pass for an SP six-chime which 4449 wore in her early excursion days.  It's missing the "steam boat" whistle.

- The Vision model I am 99.9% sure uses the exact same tooling so don't expect any further detailing, only upgraded gadgetry.

- I went ahead and painted the cab interior and engine and tender ladders to match the prototype.  Neither model gets the tender ladders correct.

Here's a video of mine running...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Dy3pPuZ1E&t=65s

Here is the prototype.  This video was taken by me at the 2019 National Garden Railroad Convention in Portland, OR.   NH Joe

More prototype photos taken by me at the 2019 National Garden Railroad Convention in Portland, OR.  NH Joe

In case it matters to the OP, the model with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the Tender seemed to sit at dealers the longest.

If you were to find one still at a dealer, that's likely the one that will pop up.

Still somewhat of a reach, though......

Great photos, New Haven Joe.

@Berkshire President posted:

In case it matters to the OP, the model with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the Tender seemed to sit at dealers the longest.

Probably because many folks don't know that the "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering was prior to 1946, i.e. when the GS class Daylights were delivered (4449 was May 1941). Currently, SP 4449 is in the "as delivered" livery.

If you were to find one still at a dealer, that's likely the one that will pop up.

Apparently many more modelers prefer the post 1946 "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" billboard lettering, which was carried through until the end of steam on the SP.

Still somewhat of a reach, though......

Great photos, New Haven Joe.

Yes. Lots of nice detail close-ups.

In case any of you haven't seen this video on the Daylight, it's well worth watching, IMHO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYnk6xavVHw

Lionel’s VisionLine model. If you could buy it new, the two year warranty would be worth a lot. The three speakers, sounds, bells and whistles of VisionLine features are simply mind blowing. Just my 2 cents. Happy Railroading Everyone

@Berkshire President posted:

In case it matters to the OP, the model with "Southern Pacific Lines" on the Tender seemed to sit at dealers the longest.

If you were to find one still at a dealer, that's likely the one that will pop up.

May be true, although I like that the "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on my GS-4 matches that on the matching Lionel 18" aluminum passenger cars I use. Gives a nice symmetry.

@breezinup posted:

May be true, although I like that the "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on my GS-4 matches that on the matching Lionel 18" aluminum passenger cars I use. Gives a nice symmetry.

Ironically, the passenger cars I went with have "LINES" on them.  Oops/Oh well.

Say...if you don't mind my asking, do you happen the model number of that 18" set and the year it came out? 

The numbers for these Lionel 18" aluminum Daylight cars are:

no. 29115 - 4 car set (combo, 2 coaches, observation); no. 25416 - 2 car set (2 coaches); and no. 25419 - sound diner.

These streamlined cars are a perfect color match for the all the Lionel scale GS engines. They were cataloged in 2005. (Lionel has done a very good job keeping the colors of their scale GS engines consistent over the years).

Don't confuse these with the later (2010) Lionel Shasta Daylight 18" aluminum passenger cars (no. 35445 and no. 35446 4 and 2 car sets), which have a different shade of colors. These match a set of PAs that were offered at the same time to pull them, but don't match the GS engines.

Thanks Breezin!!!

TO: Berkshire President, breezinup, Hot Water, New Haven Joe, Catonsville Central Railroad:

Great videos and pics (especially closeup shots showing details)!

the comment about the 2018 engine and car paint and letter fonts matching is a very nice touch. I.ll have to look closely at how the 2020 Vision engine matches either the 2018 cars or 21” cars or even the 2020 heavyweight cars both in color and letter font.

TO: leapinlarry: Your warranty comment begs me to ask for both the 2020 and 2016 engines, has their been a big need for “warranty” fixes when you buy and open up for first time a brand new Daylight engine from either of these two years? I just want to know what to expect or look out for, as either one of these engines bought now by me will likely be new or very rarely run like new.

Thanks again everyone in OGR Forum so far for your supportive insights as well as very interesting videos and pictures!

@Ken Gillig posted:

TO: Berkshire President, breezinup, Hot Water, New Haven Joe, Catonsville Central Railroad:

Great videos and pics (especially closeup shots showing details)!

the comment about the 2018 engine and car paint and letter fonts matching is a very nice touch. I.ll have to look closely at how the 2020 Vision engine matches either the 2018 cars or 21” cars or even the 2020 heavyweight cars both in color and letter font.

TO: leapinlarry: Your warranty comment begs me to ask for both the 2020 and 2016 engines, has their been a big need for “warranty” fixes when you buy and open up for first time a brand new Daylight engine from either of these two years? I just want to know what to expect or look out for, as either one of these engines bought now by me will likely be new or very rarely run like new.

My VL 4449 showed up DOA.  The board had to be replaced.

It's been flawless since.

At 800-1200, I'd be fine gambling on it.

But a VL Daylight will likely cost you two grand or more.  You may.....or may not....have a hard time getting parts for it.

That's a tough pill to swallow, in my book.

Just an extra 2 cents on the VL version:

Mine also showed up with an issue, namely the inputs to the main smoke unit have been installed incorrectly with the stack controls fixed to the cylinder smoke and vice versa. Relatively easy to diagnose and fix but still required opening the engine up, and is that not what you should expect/get on a VL model.

The feature set is great, especially the sound, but a couple of them seem a little “overcooked” for want of a better word. The bi-color classification lights are extremely bright, and unless you dial down the smoke output it is really too copious even if you have a large room to run it in. I really can’t complain about the latter because I like toy train smoke and for a few minutes it is a real crowd-pleaser.

This short video shows the first run of my GS-5 with all the smoke features operating after I had straightened out the smoke unit connections:

Hancock52 - Thanks for the video and perspective. As one person suggested if i find one i should have the for sale item fully demonstrated.

A side question - what is the Lionel model number of the extra tender / what tank?

@Ken Gillig posted:

Hancock52 - Thanks for the video and perspective. As one person suggested if i find one i should have the for sale item fully demonstrated.

A side question - what is the Lionel model number of the extra tender / what tank?

That is the Daylight auxiliary water tender cataloged at the same time as the VL GS series although it actually shipped numerous weeks before the engine sets. The Lionel SKU for this item is 2031680.

The AWT is not prototypical but nonetheless is a fun addition to the set. I forget which tooling Lionel used for the series of these that were issued to go with various engines - it may have been an old Mohawk tender.

In case it matters, the Daylight paint scheme of this matches the VL models and the earlier Daylight AC-12 cab forward that I also have. There's a whole series of other threads on (non-)matching passenger car colors from Lionel (and other brands).