SP Steam. Where is it?

Ricky:

Kind of hard to tell for sure, but from what I believe to be a station building in the distant left side of the photo, it almost looks like San Antonio.

Curt

Almost looks like Yuma, Arizona but train would have to be Eastbound. My guess would be Phoenix, Arizona.

Ray

San Antonio or Phoenix so far seem to be what most people think. Someone on trainorders.com said that in the 40's and 50's the Argonaut went thru Maricopa instead of Phoenix. Do you know if that is correct?

T&NO GS-1's were transfered west to the Rio Grande Division in 1952 according to the Signor's T&NO book and online SP Steam Rosters. They were renumbered into 4400 series by 1953.

Well, here's my two cents:

I don't recall a graceful concrete arch overpass at the east end of San Antonio, though I could be wrong and things do change over time.

The male passengers are wearing fedora hats with a tycoon crease. It was not as common in Texas in the '40's and '50's as the rancher crease. The brim is about the right width for a Texan dress hat of that era, but the flange would more likely have been even, all the way around, instead of a snap brim.

I think that the bridge in the background and that unusual bell-shaped fixture (a low platform light?) would be the best clues.

What do you Hill Country Texans say?

The overpass is what throws me. I know there was one north of the depot in SA that goes over the yard but not sure if thats the same bridge.

Can't see any evidence of a bridge in that position out in Phoenix at all.

Well, I looked at a satellite image of the SA station and this is definitely not San Antonio. I hadn't noticed the overpass in the distance when I originally posted, but all of the streets for several blocks "east" of the SA station are grade crossings. It's definitely not El Paso either so, at this point, I'm going to say I'm stumped.

Curt

Might scrutinize Lathrop in the San Joaquin valley.

quote:

Originally posted by bob2:
Might scrutinize Lathrop in the San Joaquin valley.

Is that on the Sunset Route?

It has to be Tucson. Right? North side of rails, no cover over platforms, large station... It fits.

Edit.. It is on the south side, darn.

Well here is a schedule of the Argonaut, yes I know it's from 1955 and the GS-1's were all gone by then, but this gives an idea of where the train in question may have been. To me this photo was taken in the late 40's Sooo if it was on time, and if the schedule didn't change much you can weed out certain locations as the train would have been there in the evening and not the day as this train obviously was when photographed.

http://www.streamlinerschedule.../argonaut195504.html

So CWEX said to look at the schedule of the Argonaut to see when and where it arrived during daylight hours. I looked at schedules for the Argonaut in A.D. McLennan's book on the Texas & New Orleans for 1952 and 1953. CWEX also gave me a link to one online for 1955. All of them show that the Argonaut arrived in San Antonio from Houston at around 4:00am. So unless it was really late the day it was taken this can't be San Antonio.

These schedules also leave me stumped because they show the Argonaut bypassing Phoenix and going thru Maricopa. T&NO GS-1's did not venture west of El Paso until they were transfered to the Rio Grande division of the Pacific Lines (El Paso to Phoenix) in 1952. According to SP steam rosters I found that the GS-1's were renumbered into the 4400 series by 1953. So unless the Argonaut was re-routed for some reason thru Phoenix instead of Maricopa it can't be Phoenix. But if it is, it has to have been taken in 1952.

So, to make a long story short, I'm still stumped on this one. Thanks for everyone's input on this mystery! Hope you all have a safe and happy holidays!

Ricky:

I also looked at the schedule Chris posted and was wondering if the location might be Palm Springs. I looked at a satellite photo of the current Amtrak station and there is an overpass east of the station. Unfortunately, unless the station was relocated from the north side of the tracks to the south side sometime between when the picture was taken and today, it can't be Palm Springs either. Addistionally, from the looks of the satellite photo, the current Palm Springs station appears to be fairly new and nothing like the Spanish architecture in the photo.

Curt

Another forum is attempting to make an argument for San Antonio. Looking at this postcard from Sunset Depots own website shows that San Antonio cannot be the answer.

The bridge N or the SA Station was a truss bridge.

The bridge E of the SP station is an arched bridge, but the bridge in the pic is too far east of the station. Also, there is S curve just west of the bridge.

It cant be SA. It was there in the wee hours of the a.m. Like I said earlier I think if we weed out the stops in the darkness and focused on whats left that would be a much better idea. Besides I have seen pics of the GS-1's at SA and you can clearly see the roofs over the platforms.

David Coscia from the Southern Pacific Historical Society believes the photo was taken in at Phoenix. Which means it would have to be taken 1952.

Given the lack of covers it can't be San Antonio.

Thanks everyone for your help in solving the mystery!

It makes sense given the track layout and the image on the very left of the depot.

Is it for sure the name train you say it is?

quote:

Originally posted by ironlake2:
Is it for sure the name train you say it is?

The train number indicator bords on the locomotive show "5"!

quote:

The male passengers are wearing fedora hats with a tycoon crease. It was not as common in Texas in the '40's and '50's as the rancher crease. The brim is about the right width for a Texan dress hat of that era, but the flange would more likely have been even, all the way around, instead of a snap brim.

wow! impressive.

Does anyone have a track plane for Phoenix?

Ricky:

Try using Google Maps and look for Phoenix train station. I did this the other day and was able to find it pretty quickly. I'll note that when I looked at the satellite photo it matched up pretty well with your picture except that there is no overpass east of ths station. This is an old picture though and the overpass may have been removed over the intervening years.

Curt

I've looked on google. Its hard to tell what was there 50 years ago though. Would like to find a map of the track alignment in Phoenix. Found a website that gives all the track diagrams for all the T&NO. Need one for the Pacific lines.

Ricky:

Here is a link to the Wikipedia piece on Phoenix Union Station. It includes a track diagram of the station tracks. Based on the photos included with Wikipedia, I'd say this is the correct location despite the missing overpass. After looking at your photo for a bit, I'm thinking that what everyone thought was an overpass may just be buildings in the background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...on_(Phoenix,_Arizona)

Curt

Sorry, but the url link doesn't seem to want to work properly. Google Union Station Phoenix and it will be the first choice that pops up.

Curt

Try historicaerials.com. I typed in 'union station, phoenix, az' and got aerial photos back to 1958, if that helps.

historic aerials

Regards,
Gary F

After looking at the 1958 aerial photos as Gary suggested I don't think that it is an overpass in the background. There doesn't seem to be an overpass going over the tracks. All the roads seem to cross the tracks at grade. You can make out the lines of the tracks in the pavement. Also, the tracks veer off to the left east of the station and they are buildings all in the area to the right of the tracks.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by juniata guy:
After looking at your photo for a bit, I'm thinking that what everyone thought was an overpass may just be buildings in the background.

Curt

I think you're right. The "arch" is just trees and there seems to be a large, square-ish building behind them. Mea culpa.

There also seems to be a car is sitting down at the end of the house track.