Sunset 3rd rail GP7/9s

@Bob Campbell posted:

will 3rd Rail/Sunset be providing each of us with the correct 40" diameter, geared wheelsets we need? 

Certainly, public drive-by / excoriation of a quality-focused small business with *decades* of documented best effort in consistently trying to produce the finest scale models possible is warranted here.  I mean, those wheels were perhaps .08333" too small, and so for their misdeed they should necessarily eat a "fix" costing many thousands of dollars!

:-/

Seriously though . . . you have already contacted the manufacturer directly with your specific concerns and request, correct? 

@Frank McCabe posted:

In addition, some of the roads paint colors were way off (I disposed of my CGW units because they should be maroon and red not brown and orange).  However, I did pick up a C&NW unit which had more correct colors.

Of the two engines pictured, I think the geep more closely matches the color in the photo of the prototype.

It is important that no one take personal offense when legitimate concerns and valid criticisms are offered on a public forum.  While contacting Scott directly is an option, there is also this forum that can provide us with information many don't have or don't know.  Once again a valid place to discuss issues, both positive and negitive about a particular product.  We all know that 3rd Rail is practically the only O Scale Company left that produces new, accurate, reliable models in both 3 rail and 2 rail with a high degree of quality.  Scott runs his company more like an HO company (Scaletrains, Rapido...) that takes customer input and places a great value on communicating with his customer base.  However, that does not disqualify 3rd rail from either criticism or negitive reviews.  As I have written before, as much as it may hurt Jonathan and Scott, they do want to hear how they can improve, what went wrong and what they can do better next time.  Besides, do any of us really want to just give them a constant pat on the back, whether the model is excellent (and there are many) or whether the model has problems (and there are a few).

My opinion is that with so many road names and variations, it was impossible to get them all right, especially in a covid year with minimal personal inspection of progress, I'm guessing.   My opinion is that in during this unique covid year, smaller runs but multiple runs of the Geep could have allowed for greater accuracy and possible time to correct some problems.   It appears that the SD40-2s are going to go the same route of the Geeps (large amount of road names in one run) but I have a high degree of confidence these locomotives will not have the same issues based on Scott's efforts.   It seems that so many Geep road names (several different variants that I have purchased as well) did have problems from paint to details.  All this means is that I will continue to buy from 3rd Rail precisely because they listen to reviews and criticisms as well as communicate back to us when things go wrong, and when things go right.  Is there anyone left in our small segment of the hobby that will actually listen besides 3rd Rail?  So we should all take advantage of it by pointing out mistakes as well as giving a pat on the back when deserved.

- Crank

Eccentric Crank:  Well stated.  Our point exactly!

To be clear: I wasn't taking personal offense at all, especially not with folks for posting clear inaccuracies with scale models, and I agree with pretty much everything 'Crank states above.

I was a bit taken aback however by the suggestion that 3rd Rail should provide every GP purchaser with new wheelsets in this particular situation.  That seems a bit excessive to me.  Rather, perhaps if an owner is that unhappy with the models they should take advantage of the manufacturer's generous return policy -- sounds like some have already.  Just my opinion.

Rpslt8:  We disagree.  The dark paint on the CGW model was brown, not maroon and the red was too orange.  Thats why we photographed next to an Illinois Central E-unit since it is closer to that than what it should be.  See photos below.

So what we actually have is a plastic model with brass details that has the following issues that need attention,

Wrong diameter wheels

Missing handrail stanchion

Wrong decal on one side of CB&Q Units

Wrong colors on CGW units

Wrong color stripes on ATSF units

Too bright headlights

PRR units wired to run backward

Roof fans not placed correctly

Missing some?

I certainly hope all the issues will be fixed on the 2nd run, will people wait to commit until we know for sure?

@BlueFeather posted:

Certainly, public drive-by / excoriation of a quality-focused small business with *decades* of documented best effort in consistently trying to produce the finest scale models possible is warranted here.  I mean, those wheels were perhaps .08333" too small, and so for their misdeed they should necessarily eat a "fix" costing many thousands of dollars!

:-/

Seriously though . . . you have already contacted the manufacturer directly with your specific concerns and request, correct?

It was most likely a mistake for Sunset to produce a model during Covid; but had he not, many of us would have been disappointed for that reason.  What's done is done and all we can do is move forward.  Moving forward, since Sunset produces models at a reasonable price, how about a truce where Sunset provides the replacement wheels at cost during the second run?  What we don't need is Sunset to increase the cost of each locomotive by $100 to cover "potential" errors.

Can someone post a picture of what the inside of one of these looks like with the tower drive? I'm trying to figure out if there's enough room for a battery and cvp control board, or if I should just go with a dual drive atlas, where I know there is room.

Thanks,

Adam

@Brad Kowal posted:

It was most likely a mistake for Sunset to produce a model during Covid; but had he not, many of us would have been disappointed for that reason.  What's done is done and all we can do is move forward. 

I'm only guessing here, but I bet this project was in the works before the world ever heard of the term "Covid"...

Mark in Oregon

@Scott Kay posted:

I swapped out the stock QSI sound decoder for an ESU Loksound V5 L sound decoder in my undecorated Sunset GP7.  I added a Tang Band 1925S speaker to the OEM speaker along with a CNC-machined brass base and elevated speaker mounting platform to mount the new decoder and Tang Band speaker stack-up.  The brass base and speaker platform added 10 oz. of weight to the model as I felt it could use some more weight to go along with that nice ball bearing drivetrain.  The new brass base was designed to attach to the frame using the same two M2 tapped holes used by the stock QSI decoder mount.   Here are some photos of the conversion along with a short video testing it out.  Please note that the lights are not yet hooked up as still lots of work needs to be done to the shell and lighting clusters to convert it to a chop-nose ATSF GP7.

Scott

Very nice.

I sent my Erie Geeps back for several reasons. Obviously the details and mistakes have been well documented, but I was more disappointed with how they ran and how they sounded. I can't stand the QSI decoder. The LokSound/TangBand combo is state of the art and as good as you can get. How people can be so picky on physical details but so accepting of sub standard and inaccurate sounds is a mystery to me.

I've decided that I'm just not interested in taking every brand new RTR Sunset model apart and changing decoders and speakers anymore. 

@Frank McCabe posted:

Rpslt8:  We disagree.  The dark paint on the CGW model was brown, not maroon and the red was too orange.  Thats why we photographed next to an Illinois Central E-unit since it is closer to that than what it should be.  See photos below.

I realize that you’re trying to provide constructive criticism, but in your original comments you said the the CGW geep was “too orange” and too “brown”.  You compared it to an IC F7 as if it was close to those colors, and I’m sorry it’s not even close.  Not even in the same ballpark.  I’ve included both sets of pictures from your replies.  The picture of the geep at the top is taken under what looks like dimmed tungsten (or maybe halogen) light.  The late F3 (I think) at top looks to be taken in shade indoors.  Finally, the pic of the prototype looks to be either in full sun or partly cloudy daylight, with Kodachrome or maybe Extachrome, or something similar.  That combined with a healthy coating of soot, says to me that the criticism is unfair.  

Missing stanchions, wrong wheels, wrong size roof fans… these are demonstrably provable.  But no one, and I mean no one, gets colors spot on.  And getting paints that were largely observed outdoors and captured with slide film that had various color shifts and development idiosyncrasies to match plastic models with paints 70 years newer is an effort in futility.

Do some models get it totally wrong (Lionel T&P ten wheeler)? Yes.

Some are really bad.  But these geeps are are not only in the ballpark, they’re neighbors on a Pantone color guide.

You order these models months in advance, pay your money when they arrive and take your chances that the colors (and other noted items) will be acceptable to you, as a customer.  

If the paint colors for the Chicago Great Western GP-7s were close to being accurate, I would still have them.

After reading the various comments in this post I went back and looked at my PRR units, 2 GP9s and a GP7.  

I checked the wheel diameter and yes they measure 36 scale inches.    that is too bad, but I did not notice this until it was pointed out in this thread.    They are pretty well hidden  underneath.

I checked the fans.    ALL of mine are centered in their respective panels.

I checked the coupler height and according to my Kadee gauge, they are a smidge low.   They are not anywhere near 4 scale inches, maybe 1 scale inch or less.    They are not enough off to make any issues on my rough trackwork.

I considered the colors and I think they did a great job on the PRR Green and Black.    It is well done and in the right places.    Over the  years the PRR  units had various lettering schemes and what is on these fits one of the  early to mid-life schemes very well.

I like the sound.   to me it sounds just great and revs and idles according to throttle behavior.    I don't have that much knowledge of these older diesel prototypes to tell if it is a little off or not.  

I have not problem with the QSI decoders.    They work just fine for me.   They are cumbersome to program directly with a master throttle but once you learn how it is not big deal.   I did all my programming on my E7s with QSI with my master throttle.   Now I use DecoderPRO from JMRI and programming these is just like any other decoder.   Just use the menus.    I think their motor control is just fine.

The light setup and control on these is great also.    I have set up to manually control the markers and include the Number boards with the headlights.    I move logically the cab light to a different port and have it turn off immediately when the unit moves.   All in all great fun.

Mechanically these mechanisms are very well designed and built.    They run just great.    Mine creep or run at speed very smoothly.    I run the GP9s together they run fine together with no special programming.     I think these single motor drives are much much better in scale models than the 2 motor drives in many offerings.   

While there are some glitches, these are in my opinion good models and good value.  

Note that many brass models that have been inported at much higher prices are typically detailed generically or just for a few roads.    If I remember, the details on these were based on 20 different roads versions.     Mars lights, Trainphones, dynamic brakes, roof air tanks etc varied from road to road.

Bah.  I didn't want to start any tension or problems, as this is a very positive and trouble-free community as Internet forums go, and I truly appreciate that.

I've seen the same thing with custom knives, with art scanning, etc.  Guys pick on a certain nit and can't / don't let that "missed" detail go, even if it's only a hair off.  I totally get it -- I mean, these models cost a lot of money, and they are marketed as being very accurate to the originals (which is pretty much true).  Expectations are high, and sometimes it's easy to be disappointed.  With art reproduction (scanning original paintings and then printing them out on canvas), for example, people would demand to see *that* exact shade of red as it appears in the original painting.  It's sometimes tough to replicate it exactly, and usually the customer isn't willing to pay for the labor involved for the iterative effort required to precisely match -- at least when they're quoted the hours / materials required. 

3rd Rail walks a fine line here.  They try to make their buyers happy -- including their discriminating customers flagging discrepancies we have been discussing -- but they're still a business that has to make money so they can keep doing this.  I really do understand both sides of the argument, and absolutely *don't* envy the small business owner in this case! 

Sunset models frequently have minor errors that one has to live with - while keeping in mind that without Sunset a particular prototype would NEVER be available in O Scale.

Hi Everyone,

I agree with the above commentary in every way. I think Scott does an outstanding job with his offerings especially considering that some other O Scale manufacturers are a lot larger. Were there errors or inaccuracies, yes. I'm not a rivet counter nor do I have the knowledge to be one. I regularly read about the details people see or don't see and I am like "Wow I would've never known".  It's certainly an education for me.

Recent comments on this thread made me think of where O Scale is  as it relates to the hobby. We have Atlas, Lionel, and "MTH" as major manufacturers. Businesses like Scott's are the icing on the cake but not many exist anymore. Some of the more "serious" O scalers won't even touch the first 3 manufacturers I mentioned, which means their choices are even more limited. I believe all manufacturers have continued to up their game but as we all know they will never be able to please everyone.

I regularly see companies in HO and N Scales creating models to a level that we just have not seen often if at all in O Scale and am not sure we will. The accuracy of model and sound is simply stunning and to even come close to it, O scalers have to purchase detail parts, install decoders , and make other modifications on top of an already expensive model.  I'm not a businessman or manufacturer but I never quite understood that considering O Scale is larger and detail work should be easier to accomplish. Obviously the competition is part of what drives the level of detail on the smaller scales' market. Those who model in HO and N can get an almost "perfect" unit right out of the box. This means they are spending more time running trains and less trying to get to that point.

I'm not complaining because with all of the short comings I will remain in O Scale for various different reasons and these statements are simply observations. However, I have seen quite a few people make the switch to the other scales for the reasons mentioned, which is kind of sad. Ultimately the cost of the smaller scales are less expensive and with understandable reason, but when you have the kind of choices offered in HO and N then it's no mystery as to why. How many of you that know anything about Scaletrains were hoping that when they picked up the tooling for MTH's HO and S tooling were hoping they took the O Scale tooling as well? If so, why?

Anyways, I will quit rambling. Overall, I am happy with what our O Scale manufacturers are doing for our part of the hobby. Without them we wouldn't have O Scale. Also, O Scalers are some of the best modelers because we have to be. We unfortunately do not have the choices that the other scales have but we have to continue supporting our manufacturers while we still have them. I certainly believe that constructive criticism is important and appropriate so that the bar is regularly raised. However consider, just in my relatively short time in the hobby we have lost a few O Scale manufacturers and thought we were going to lose another most recently.

Food for thought...

Dave

@oscaletrains posted:

Missing some?

I certainly hope all the issues will be fixed on the 2nd run, will people wait to commit until we know for sure?

One other improvement would be to use magnets to hold the fan panel at the end of the long hood instead of the tabs. The tabs don't allow the panel to fit as well as it should nor provide easy removal.

Hi Folks,

Now that the discussion has come full circle I'll put in my 2 cents.

CGW Colors:  We buy our paint color samples from Tru-Color Paints. We spray sample chips on styrene squares and mail them to the factory for matching. The factory sends these sample chips to a Chinese Paint Company that matches the paints in an unknown way.  Then,  the factory sends digital pictures of our Sample chips on top of the factory's painted sample. We ask for adjustments and then approve once you can't see a difference between the sample we sent and the sample paint color on the model body.  The lighting doesn't matter. It can be indoor, outdoor, as  a digital picture will show that they are very close, same or way off.  That's our color matching process. Some folks that complain a lot about colors, never send me a sample paint chip of the "Correct" Color,  or what they think is the right shade. They just show pictures like in this thead. It's no help at all.  Some chips we do get are totally wrong and throw us off. It's hard to know what is right or wrong.  But Tru-Color  https://trucolorpaint.com/colo...arts/color-database/ has IC Orange and Brown, which are the same colors we used on the GPs CGW after we got complaints a few projects ago on the IC colors from the very same people in this thread.

Wheel Diameter:  Our design team blew it on this one. I even gave them a competitor's model as a sample to follow and they didn't follow the wheel diameter. The design team leader assumed all diesels are the same.  And the head of the design team, a Korean, goes all the way back to the Samhongsa days. You would think he would know the difference.  Jonathan & Richard and a host of others checked over these drawings, but the wheel diameter is not called out on the drawings (a new requirement).  I find that it doesn't matter how much we check, correct, fix, there are always errors. Only the one's that pop out at you are the one's we usually catch.  So like some of you said, you can "hardly see a difference" in Radius of .04" in a wheel size, especially since the wheels are mostly hidden behind the side frames.

I think Frank measured the wheels when he saw that the coupler was low on his model.  But I looked at our drawings and the coupler center height off the rail is exactly 17.5mm, the same that we always use, and was not affected by the smaller wheel diameter, because the drawing was accurate to that wheel diameter.

My suggestion to those of you that are sorely disappointed again and again, is to not order from your dealer or 3rd Rail again. Your punishing yourself and us as we can't do any better than our best effort.

There are two camps here. Those that are so picky that they have to send their models back or they would throw up... And those that see the value, hard work, effort and the beauty of a hand made model as they are.

I suppose the SD40-2 wheels are supposed to be 40" in diameter. I don't keep track of these details. I leave that up to my team that oversees the design process.

When we begin production of the SD40-2s I'll make some extra 40" axles for those that want to buy them and install them, themselves. My cost is about $15 each geared axle. It would be a year or so that these would be available.

As for a 2nd Run GP79. I'm thinking maybe not. Lets give it some time.

As for # of variables on the SD40-2 project vs the GP79 project:   GP79 was 52 varieties of engine details/ liveries, SD40-2 is 20, much more manageable.

Cheers All:

Try to enjoy your models as much as you can. We put our heart and soul into making these. This is the best we can do.

Oh... and for Mr. List Maker: Stick it were the sun don't shine.

Yes, the SD40-2’s have 40” diameter wheels. I have 4 ordered and I have no doubt these will be exceptional models and well worth the wait.

@sdmann posted:

Cheers All:

Try to enjoy your models as much as you can. We put our heart and soul into making these. This is the best we can do.

I just may have to order a few more SD40-2s...

Thanks for your hard work and beautiful models Scott. 

@sdmann posted:

Try to enjoy your models as much as you can. We put our heart and soul into making these. This is the best we can do.

I can't wait to get my first (of hopefully many) 3rd Rail Model. I have heard they are the best thing out there. Just holding out for the FP7

Unfortunately, in this hobby there are guys that will endlessly complain about something regardless of the significance or validity of their complaints. They are the same guys that walk around the train show with their coin purses and waste half of your day trying to haggle the price of a $10 junk box sitting under the table. They troll at every chance they get. It doesn’t matter what happens in relation to what they are saying. They will continue to complain and waste your time because that’s why they are here in the first place. There are people in this thread who came here just to complain. They are the same people who will do the same next time a SS3R/GGD product comes out. Many are the same people who did so in previous product releases (don’t believe me, look at old SS3R/GGD product threads and you will see the same people wailing about the paint color).

Please do not let these trolls suck all the air out of the room. Scott imports the very best in our hobby and has done so for years! He consistently imports models including specific variations that no one else would even dream of attempting. He offers the best return policy in the buisness and when larger legitimate issues arise, he bends over backwards to sensibility address them in a very direct way with his customers.

Long after we are all gone and model trains are fading into the history books, SS3R/GGD products will rightfully hold their place on the very top of O Scale, especially for the 3 rail scale segment of the market.  

We are with you all the way Scott and we greatly appreciate what you have done and continue to do for our hobby!

@sdmann posted:

And those that see the value, hard work, effort and the beauty of a hand made model as they are.

I am definitely in this group.  Are my Lackawanna and CNJ GP7s perfect? No.  Are they models that have never been produced before and are 99% accurate?  You bet.  As long as Scott keeps producing models for northeastern roads, especially Lackawanna, my wallet will be ready.

If I had known that some Erie GPs were returned, I might have just bought them too.

Lionel's CB&Q E5:

3rd Rail's CB&Q E5:

Have a great day, everyone!

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Lionel's CB&Q E5:

3rd Rail's CB&Q E5:

Have a great day, everyone!

Just to be fair, MSRP for the Lionels is $650 and the 3rd Rail is $1600. You're trying to compare apples to oranges, holding up a Chevy Malibu and comparing it to a Mercedes E350 as if they compete with one another.

@breezinup posted:

Just to be fair, MSRP for the Lionels is $650 and the 3rd Rail is $1600. You're trying to compare apples to oranges, holding up a Chevy Malibu and comparing it to a Mercedes E350 as if they compete with one another.

Which is precisely why I don't compare 3rd Rail's E5 with Key Model Imports $4.5k E5s. The culprit is evident, some people are holding the standards of high end brass to plastic ready to run imports. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

As for the Lionel's E5s.... I'd pay up to $65.00 for that piece of junk. Shipping included.

If the squawkers cause Sunset 3rd Rail to throw in the towel, we are DONE. The O SCALE portion of the hobby will be eliminated. Essentially all the reliable o scale brass importers are gone, except Sunset.  Think about it, folks.

@mark s posted:

If the squawkers cause Sunset 3rd Rail to throw in the towel, we are DONE. The O SCALE portion of the hobby will be eliminated. Essentially all the reliable o scale brass importers are gone, except Sunset.  Think about it, folks.

This can't be overstated, Mark. We're walking a very fine line here.

@catnap posted:

Yes, the SD40-2’s have 40” diameter wheels. I have 4 ordered and I have no doubt these will be exceptional models and well worth the wait.

Ahhh no,  HTC trucks have 42" wheels.

@rdunniii posted:

Ahhh no,  HTC trucks have 42" wheels.

Thanks for the clarification. The Flexicoils had 40" wheels.

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Which is precisely why I don't compare 3rd Rail's E5 with Key Model Imports $4.5k E5s. The culprit is evident, some people are holding the standards of high end brass to plastic ready to run imports. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

As for the Lionel's E5s.... I'd pay up to $65.00 for that piece of junk. Shipping included.

We didn't even get to the part where the Lionel units are E6s.  

In all seriousness, Santiago's analogy is an accurate one.  You can't hold Lionel or MTH to Sunset standards just as you can't hold Sunset to Key standards without paying the price. 

We are moving on from the GP7/9.  That ship has already sailed so to speak and most of the roads done in the first run won't likely run again if there is an unlikely second run.  The numbers just weren't there to justify doing them again.  It was not perfect, but it was still a good project overall.  The number of happy customers far outweighs the dissatisfied ones.

My focus is moving forward with the fair criticism that has been leveled by a few individuals and focusing on a great SD40-2 project.  It is a very exciting project and the history of that locomotive is a fascinating study.   

@sdmann posted:

Hi Folks,

Now that the discussion has come full circle I'll put in my 2 cents.

CGW Colors:  We buy our paint color samples from Tru-Color Paints. We spray sample chips on styrene squares and mail them to the factory for matching. The factory sends these sample chips to a Chinese Paint Company that matches the paints in an unknown way.  Then,  the factory sends digital pictures of our Sample chips on top of the factory's painted sample. We ask for adjustments and then approve once you can't see a difference between the sample we sent and the sample paint color on the model body.  The lighting doesn't matter. It can be indoor, outdoor, as  a digital picture will show that they are very close, same or way off.  That's our color matching process. Some folks that complain a lot about colors, never send me a sample paint chip of the "Correct" Color,  or what they think is the right shade. They just show pictures like in this thead. It's no help at all.  Some chips we do get are totally wrong and throw us off. It's hard to know what is right or wrong.  But Tru-Color  https://trucolorpaint.com/colo...arts/color-database/ has IC Orange and Brown, which are the same colors we used on the GPs CGW after we got complaints a few projects ago on the IC colors from the very same people in this thread.

Wheel Diameter:  Our design team blew it on this one. I even gave them a competitor's model as a sample to follow and they didn't follow the wheel diameter. The design team leader assumed all diesels are the same.  And the head of the design team, a Korean, goes all the way back to the Samhongsa days. You would think he would know the difference.  Jonathan & Richard and a host of others checked over these drawings, but the wheel diameter is not called out on the drawings (a new requirement).  I find that it doesn't matter how much we check, correct, fix, there are always errors. Only the one's that pop out at you are the one's we usually catch.  So like some of you said, you can "hardly see a difference" in Radius of .04" in a wheel size, especially since the wheels are mostly hidden behind the side frames.

I think Frank measured the wheels when he saw that the coupler was low on his model.  But I looked at our drawings and the coupler center height off the rail is exactly 17.5mm, the same that we always use, and was not affected by the smaller wheel diameter, because the drawing was accurate to that wheel diameter.

My suggestion to those of you that are sorely disappointed again and again, is to not order from your dealer or 3rd Rail again. Your punishing yourself and us as we can't do any better than our best effort.

There are two camps here. Those that are so picky that they have to send their models back or they would throw up... And those that see the value, hard work, effort and the beauty of a hand made model as they are.

I suppose the SD40-2 wheels are supposed to be 40" in diameter. I don't keep track of these details. I leave that up to my team that oversees the design process.

When we begin production of the SD40-2s I'll make some extra 40" axles for those that want to buy them and install them, themselves. My cost is about $15 each geared axle. It would be a year or so that these would be available.

As for a 2nd Run GP79. I'm thinking maybe not. Lets give it some time.

As for # of variables on the SD40-2 project vs the GP79 project:   GP79 was 52 varieties of engine details/ liveries, SD40-2 is 20, much more manageable.

Cheers All:

Try to enjoy your models as much as you can. We put our heart and soul into making these. This is the best we can do.

Oh... and for Mr. List Maker: Stick it were the sun don't shine.

The HTC truck, meaning all -2s, the SD50s and SD60s and the SDP40F have 42" wheels.  OBTW, I have bucket load of 40" wheels if anyone wants some.  You pay postage.  I change out my wheels with P48, blah so they are left over.  For those of you without an arbor press next time I go see Scott I will be dropping them off so maybe those that care can work something out with him.

As for color, some of you will remember the Southern Green debacle several years ago where one side said even the Southern Railway people in the Atlanta shops didn't know what they were talking about.  The rest of ignore the color BS.  Right Eric?  He did a piece years ago using somethings which at one time had been the same color.  But, over time they had drifted so far apart that there were absurd arguments about colors.

Even right now Scott is doing the E1s in ATSF red and an orange because some people think there are two different warbonnet reds.  There aren't.  But 1930s paint technology, especially reds, faded fast and furious.  The warbonnet FT's had the same thing.

@rdunniii posted:

The HTC truck, meaning all -2s, the SD50s and SD60s and the SDP40F have 42" wheels.

Rich,

I'm not so sure you are correct, i.e. all -2s, the SD50s and SD60s and the SDP40F units having 42" diameter wheels. I'm pretty sure the 42" diameter wheels didn't come out until well after the -2 series models, as with the 70 series units. The "-2 series", both GP and SD models did NOT have 42" wheels, and neither did the 50 series units (GP & SD).

@Hot Water posted:

Beg to differ.  The HTCR trucks for the 70 series have 43 or 44" wheels, as do the dash9 and above GE locomotives.

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Lionel's CB&Q E5:

3rd Rail's CB&Q E5:

Have a great day, everyone!

3rd Rail / Golden Gate Depot!
Nothing else like it in O Scale!

@rdunniii posted:

Beg to differ.  The HTCR trucks for the 70 series have 43 or 44" wheels, as do the dash9 and above GE locomotives.

Rich,

The HTCR truck is completely different from the HTC truck. The 40 series, 50 series, and 60 series did NOT have HTCR trucks.

EMD HT-C and HTCR (Radial Steering) trucks are two completely different truck designs.  The HT-C was used on almost all SD40-2s; however, Conrail ordered their SD40-2s with the older Flexicoil-style trucks (used previously on straight SD40s) since CR feared the newer untested HT-C design would cause derailments).   Both the HT-C trucks  and the Flexicoil trucks contained 40" wheels.  The HTCR trucks introduced in 1993 used  42" diameter wheels and then quickly jumped to 45" wheels when EMD released the the HTCR II truck design in 1995.  So for the sake of the upcoming SD40-2 models, 40" wheels should be used on either the more common HT-C trucks or the Conrail Flexicoil trucks.

Some links below:

https://en.everybodywiki.com/HT-C_truck

http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos...d402/sd402proto.html

OGR forum post with photos of HTC-R trucks for a sample photo:

https://ogrforum.com/...ern-truck-suspension

Scott

This source from 1972 says the HT-C truck was designed to work with a 42" wheel.  Bottom of page 6 under "Wheels"...

https://utahrails.net/loconote...-RT-3_March-1972.pdf

This EMD maintenance instruction says 42" on all GP and HT-C equipped locos from 1972 on...
https://heritagerailalliance.w...S-AXLES-1987-OCT.PDF

Page 5 of the SD40-2 Operator's Manual...

40" it is.