The Public

From a member non seller, while I don't think I remember seeing a large public presence, what does it hurt?  It might get a few more sales.  I suspect more with folks selling general product rather than specialized. 

As a hobbyist the more the merrier. 

Whether it helped?  I don't know but it can't hurt. 

I was able to attend the Spring York meet as a non-member. It was my first time at York. My wife, daughter, and I had a good time. Spent about 5 hours.

I was unable to make it to the October show this weekend, but we plan on going back in the Spring, by then there is a good chance it will be as a member. 

I didn't see any significant impact with the public there, but then they didn't hurt us any either.

Besides the Purple Hall looking more crowded than usual on Friday, I didn't actually note who were non-TCA members. I think the "tell' might be a drop-off in TCA membership...those current members only interested in the Orange Hall. On the other hand, current none-members may join to get the full experience.  Or the world might end next week.

I think those that were pushing hard for this expected The Public would turn out in Droves. After 2 Meets and 0 Droves, they must be disappointed...they clearly were mistaken.

We have not noticed enough public members present to matter. See no harm in it but they appear to be a non-factor.

We have not noticed enough public members present to matter. See no harm in it but they appear to be a non-factor.

Saturday is the day that most general public would attend, because of work and kids in school on a weekday. Most of us TCA members are retired and don't have an issue with attending on a weekday. Some of the deterrents of drawing the public in is, do they want to deal with the York traffic or do moms, who have the final say on where their taking the kids for the day, rather take their kids to one of the many Fall Festivals or on a hay ride and a corn maze. It's hard to draw people indoors for anything on a beautiful fall day in October, unless your crazy about trains like we are. December would be more of an appropriate time for the general public to be attracted to a TCA show, because of the relationship between toy trains and Christmas.   

I had taken my Brother and a friend, both are from the General Public, and they really enjoy themselves at the meet.  This is the second time they had gone and they will attend next Spring too.  They don't want to be members and spending just $14.00 is worth it to them, to see the Big Manufacturers along with the leading vendors in the hobby.  We spent 6 hours roaming through the Halls.  They did score some good deals.  TCA gets a few bucks and they get some good deals, WIN WIN, for the hobby.

Worth noting - this time of the year most of small town central PA is having some sort of "Fall Festival" - might thin the public herd.

Maybe they were expecting a carnival?

The nice weather, while great in terms of not having rain as you walk between buildings may have pulled potential public away as well.

On Saturday, I heard one family outside of Red mention something about being a little disappointed and expecting more (general comment, I think).  I suspect they were surveying the grounds just to get a glimpse of what might be the added attraction if they were to join and have the other halls available.  They clearly knew they could not go in, but I think I heard them mention glancing in and seeing all the people packing up - so the self fulfilling prophecy has come about (no people buying so people close up early, and people who do come around later wonder where all the sellers are and why all the tables are cleared out). 

I heard another story from a guard relating that one family that arrived mid afternoon on Friday (possibly after school? didn't get that level of detail) was disappointed because they missed the operating layouts in Black.  Apparently when they arrived, they first went through some of Orange for a bit (which makes sense since that's where they registered, and it makes sense for first timers to not be pros and have a good strategy to see things).  By the time they decided to head to Black it was slightly past 5 PM, so it was closed. 

I think the formal close time for Black has been left a bit up to the groups that set up across the various meets the last few years (at least once)?  I know the ED tried to originally (long before the public admission concept) consider it a member hall in terms of close time to allow the members of the group to walk around the dealer halls if they chose to (but since it is open to the public, having it with different hours is basically asking for people to be unhappy, IMO). 

I also remember one of the larger groups (might have been National Capital Trackers, but I might be mistaken) lobbied for being allowed to stay open until the dealer halls were closed, since they looked at it as more return for their huge investment of setup time by allowing more people to see their display.  There were also more than enough of them in that group to cycle in and out for any members who did want to walk around.  Of course extra hours also means the EDTCA needs to pay the guards for Black for an extra 1 1/2 hours, so I don't know if that drove the close time.  (though that would seem to be worth it to allow the public more viewing time)

-Dave

Great. 

Now it's open to the public, (if they pay an admission fee), and they still don't come.  I certainly didn't expect that.  In a large metropolitan area like York, Pennsylvania you would think there would have been long lines waiting to get into the halls.  I have made several trips driving to York from South Texas, taking a week of vacation to do it.  I think if you want to come, you will find a way and save up enough money to afford it.  The low attendance is probably more a matter of interest, desire and priority.

 I have never attended an Audubon bird watching session or Beanie babies convention.  Not everyone is interested in trains, much less the O and S scale variety which is the majority of the York focus. 

But I had a great time.

laz1957 posted:

I had taken my Brother and a friend, both are from the General Public, and they really enjoy themselves at the meet.  This is the second time they had gone and they will attend next Spring too.  They don't want to be members and spending just $14.00 is worth it to them, to see the Big Manufacturers along with the leading vendors in the hobby.  We spent 6 hours roaming through the Halls.  They did score some good deals.  TCA gets a few bucks and they get some good deals, WIN WIN, for the hobby.

How did they feel about not having access to all the halls? 

No media outreach = no media coverage

https://news.google.com/news/s...20Train%20Show?hl=en

Getting on TV or an article in the paper isn't an accident or something you hope for.

Dave45681 posted:

I also remember one of the larger groups (might have been National Capital Trackers, but I might be mistaken) lobbied for being allowed to stay open until the dealer halls were closed, since they looked at it as more return for their huge investment of setup time by allowing more people to see their display.  There were also more than enough of them in that group to cycle in and out for any members who did want to walk around.  Of course extra hours also means the EDTCA needs to pay the guards for Black for an extra 1 1/2 hours, so I don't know if that drove the close time.  (though that would seem to be worth it to allow the public more viewing time)

-Dave

 

No lobbying required. It didn’t take much, we just asked them to make an announcement. The guard left (not sure there was one in the first place, but that’s another story). The black hall technically has to stay open until dealer halls close because it is the bathroom location for the purple hall, which has no bathroom.  It just comes down to the club’s willingness to stay.

Not sure how much extra traffic it yielded, but we sure had fun staying late. 

Dave45681 posted:

The nice weather, while great in terms of not having rain as you walk between buildings may have pulled potential public away as well.

 

On Saturday, I heard one family outside of Red mention something about being a little disappointed and expecting more (general comment, I think).  I suspect they were surveying the grounds just to get a glimpse of what might be the added attraction if they were to join and have the other halls available.  They clearly knew they could not go in, but I think I heard them mention glancing in and seeing all the people packing up - so the self fulfilling prophecy has come about (no people buying so people close up early, and people who do come around later wonder where all the sellers are and why all the tables are cleared out). 

 

I heard another story from a guard relating that one family that arrived mid afternoon on Friday (possibly after school? didn't get that level of detail) was disappointed because they missed the operating layouts in Black.  Apparently when they arrived, they first went through some of Orange for a bit (which makes sense since that's where they registered, and it makes sense for first timers to not be pros and have a good strategy to see things).  By the time they decided to head to Black it was slightly past 5 PM, so it was closed. 

I think the formal close time for Black has been left a bit up to the groups that set up across the various meets the last few years (at least once)?  I know the ED tried to originally (long before the public admission concept) consider it a member hall in terms of close time to allow the members of the group to walk around the dealer halls if they chose to (but since it is open to the public, having it with different hours is basically asking for people to be unhappy, IMO). 

I also remember one of the larger groups (might have been National Capital Trackers, but I might be mistaken) lobbied for being allowed to stay open until the dealer halls were closed, since they looked at it as more return for their huge investment of setup time by allowing more people to see their display.  There were also more than enough of them in that group to cycle in and out for any members who did want to walk around.  Of course extra hours also means the EDTCA needs to pay the guards for Black for an extra 1 1/2 hours, so I don't know if that drove the close time.  (though that would seem to be worth it to allow the public more viewing time)

-Dave

 

Dave, I think you are on the right track.  My observation based on attending other shows is that a large section of the public attends train shows as a family event, they bring their kids to see many running train layouts.  It's fun, the kids like it and they may purchase train items to take home.  The York Train Meet is a mecca  but falls significantly short on running layouts in comparison IMO to other large shows.  Personally, the big draw for me is the mecca but I always enjoy seeing the layouts too.

shorling posted:

Dave45681 posted:...

On Saturday, I heard one family outside of Red mention something about beinga little disappointed and expecting more (general comment, I think).  I suspect they were surveying the grounds just to get a glimpse of what might be the added attraction if they were to join and have the other halls available.  They clearly knew they could not go in, but I think I heard them mention glancing in and seeing all the people packing up - so the self fulfilling prophecy has come about (no people buying so people close up early, and people who do come around later wonder where all the sellers are and why all the tables are cleared out). ...

...I heard another story from a guard relating that one family that arrived mid afternoon on Friday (possibly after school? didn't get that level of detail) was disappointed because they missed the operating layouts in Black....

Dave, I think you are on the right track.  My observation based on attending other shows is that a large section of the public attends train shows as a family event, they bring their kids to see many running train layouts.  It's fun, the kids like it and they may purchase train items to take home.  The York Train Meet is a mecca  but falls significantly short on running layouts in comparison IMO to other large shows.  Personally, the big draw for me is the mecca but I always enjoy seeing the layouts too.

Interesting points. You made me think that seeing all the ingredients - trains; scenery; trees; little people, etc. - for a model train layout, without seeing actual layouts, also, is a bit like seeing all the ingredients for making a cake all lined up, and no cake, is leaving plenty to the imagination, and affords a lot less in the thrill category.

Wait. What? Did I make a point there somewhere ?

FrankM

Moonson posted:

shorling posted:

Dave45681 posted:...

On Saturday, I heard one family outside of Red mention something about beinga little disappointed and expecting more (general comment, I think).  I suspect they were surveying the grounds just to get a glimpse of what might be the added attraction if they were to join and have the other halls available.  They clearly knew they could not go in, but I think I heard them mention glancing in and seeing all the people packing up - so the self fulfilling prophecy has come about (no people buying so people close up early, and people who do come around later wonder where all the sellers are and why all the tables are cleared out). ...

...I heard another story from a guard relating that one family that arrived mid afternoon on Friday (possibly after school? didn't get that level of detail) was disappointed because they missed the operating layouts in Black....

Dave, I think you are on the right track.  My observation based on attending other shows is that a large section of the public attends train shows as a family event, they bring their kids to see many running train layouts.  It's fun, the kids like it and they may purchase train items to take home.  The York Train Meet is a mecca  but falls significantly short on running layouts in comparison IMO to other large shows.  Personally, the big draw for me is the mecca but I always enjoy seeing the layouts too.

Interesting points. You made me think that seeing all the ingredients - trains; scenery; trees; little people, etc. - for a model train layout, without seeing actual layouts, also, is a bit like seeing all the ingredients for making a cake all lined up, and no cake, is leaving plenty to the imagination, and affords a lot less in the thrill category.

Precisely.

Boilermaker1 posted:

No lobbying required. It didn’t take much, we just asked them to make an announcement. The guard left (not sure there was one in the first place, but that’s another story). The black hall technically has to stay open until dealer halls close because it is the bathroom location for the purple hall, which has no bathroom.  It just comes down to the club’s willingness to stay.

Not sure how much extra traffic it yielded, but we sure had fun staying late. 

Thanks for filling in my blanks with your first-hand account!  (and thanks to you and your group for the times it has been your layout on display in the hall!)

-Dave

Moonson posted:

laz1957 posted:

I had taken my Brother and a friend, both are from the General Public, and they really enjoy themselves at the meet.  This is the second time they had gone and they will attend next Spring too.  They don't want to be members and spending just $14.00 is worth it to them, to see the Big Manufacturers along with the leading vendors in the hobby.  We spent 6 hours roaming through the Halls.  They did score some good deals.  TCA gets a few bucks and they get some good deals, WIN WIN, for the hobby.

How did they feel about not having access to all the halls? 

They didn't care too much about the other Halls.  They said between the Purple and Orange Hall along with seeing the layout in the Black and Purple halls was enough for them.  They like trains but aren't as rabid as I am.  I went through the other Halls on Thursday and found deals for myself.

Model railroading by and large has been presented to the public in films as an odd ball child's pass time enjoyed by older folks whose development has been arrested for which I plead guilty. 

However that stigma coupled with the gadget crazed general population who walk right on by model train displays is an indication of where we are headed.   Next time you are at  show with layouts watch  the crowd flow.  How many even pause, how many linger, how many ask questions, what kind of follow up is experienced by the clubs?  I am amassed at the dedication and work of clubs transporting, setting up and tearing down for the trip home when many folks don't even stop to look.

Uniquely this country has been experiencing the greatest generational passing of fortunes.  More so than at any time in the past and there is no thought that it will possible in the forseeable future.  It seems to have peaked and we are witnessing the other side of it.

In the insurance industry years ago many folks would pay annual or semi annual premiums.  Today, if you can not get the premium deducted from their paycheck there is no sale.  This society is close to being tapped out IMO.

It's interesting to see the excuses of why locals didn't flock to the meet. Proponents of opening to the public will now say you should arrange to have the meet on a rainy Saturday in December, that's the ticket.

As noted in an earlier post, it will be interesting to see if members who only join TCA to attend York will stop renewing. I doubt there would be a big drop but I most likely will not renew this time around.

Some "public" shows I attend are the huge gun shows in Oaks, PA, the Antique Paper Show and the Vintage Toy Show both in Allentown, and the large Postcard Show in York. One thing they all have in common is newspaper, magazine, and gun show wise, radio, ADVERTISING.

Saw 3 wristbands on Friday, 5 on Saturday. Understand the total sold for last York was about 300.

I didn't see any, but I wasn't looking for them. Actually, I forgot about the public.

I agree with Joe. There needs to be more advertising. 

York is surrounded by some of the largest metropolitan areas in the NE. Advertising - in the form of sone billboards, some news coverage, maybe a commercial - is needed. Like I posted, I went in April as general public. My wife and I enjoyed what we saw. My daughter like the layouts that were on display. We had a good time. But if it wasn’t for me stumbling on the general public admission info posted on the MTH show page, we wouldn’t have known. It didn’t hurt that we were heading to Lancaster for the same weekend, so it worked out well. 

There are so many people that could be turned in to the hobby if more knew. My daughter loves running trains and I’m working on my nephew, he’s 2, but loves trains. His mom and dad are more than open to the hobby. 

They need to get the word out!

- Carl

christopher N&W posted:

It's interesting to see the excuses of why locals didn't flock to the meet. Proponents of opening to the public will now say you should arrange to have the meet on a rainy Saturday in December, that's the ticket.

As noted in an earlier post, it will be interesting to see if members who only join TCA to attend York will stop renewing. I doubt there would be a big drop but I most likely will not renew this time around.

I'm not sure I'd call the above posts excuses.  More like our observations (which is what was asked for in the first post), many of which are theories on why the meet is still not an easy sell to the public.

For people already hooked, it's worth the vacation days, travel effort/expense, etc. for Thursday and Friday.  For those not, or those trying to bring in school aged kids (who are hopefully in school for most of Thursday and Friday), it's a really wacky time for trying to get to a train meet.  Most families probably eat dinner after work/school, rather than try to rush a train meet in between whenever work/school ends and 7 PM.

Saturday is the catch-22 hamster wheel as I mentioned in my original post.  It's low on buyers, so frustrated sellers leave early, and then frustrated buyers who are there wonder why they bothered to come to see a bunch of empty or in the process of being packed tables at 10 AM, when the halls are supposed to be open until 2 (for members) or 4 (for public in dealers halls).  So next time they don't come for Saturday, because it's a waste, and the cycle continues.  That particular problem is not exclusive to the public aspect, it's a general problem with the meet.

I also observe that people have their perspective based on what they are trying to sell.  A member across from me had some interesting items, but they were also high $$ (quite possibly justified for what  they were - not being in the market for these types of items I can't say) and somewhat specialized for a few of them.  75% of members probably might have thought his stuff may have been "interesting", but would never be a potential purchaser, so he believes no one is interested.  It's a VERY small cross section for some things, particularly as some of the older members who may have had interest in some of these older items pass on. 

Sorry.  Diverted from the public aspect for a bit there.

-Dave

The majority of the "train" public are into HO. The York dealers say "let the public in." This in mind, I don't remember seeing much HO stuff in the dealer halls. I know this because I was looking for "Ready-Built" HO size structures. Some fit into my S gauge layout very well, and I thought, "Maybe now I'll find a few". Not one was found...only the O versions. I'm not suggesting that York get turned into a Greenberg-type show...just making an observation.

Moonson has hit the nail on the head. York is a cornucopia of trains but, for a family looking for what trains actually do, nope.

April won't be better I think we will be up against the CARLISLE CAR SHOW AGAIN.

GG1GUYY 

It looks like the TCA wants this to fail.  No advertising, no outreach.  I've let my TCA membership lapse.  Not just because of this, but some of the pedantic behavior of the higher ups.  

It looks like the TCA wants this to fail.  No advertising, no outreach.

Advertising can be very expensive.
A bunch of participants in the Dealer Halls were calling for the show to be opened to the public. What did they do to spread the word?

In one of the posts above, someone wrote that they only accidentally found out about the show while traveling in the area.  Here is someone who participates on this board, has an interest in shows, and missed the frequent discussions. So what chance does advertising really have? 

I will agree that the Eastern Division and the National TCA needs to do a better job with their web pages and Facebook pages.

Joe Hohmann posted:

The majority of the "train" public are into HO. The York dealers say "let the public in." This in mind, I don't remember seeing much HO stuff in the dealer halls. I know this because I was looking for "Ready-Built" HO size structures. Some fit into my S gauge layout very well, and I thought, "Maybe now I'll find a few". Not one was found...only the O versions. I'm not suggesting that York get turned into a Greenberg-type show...just making an observation.

Menards for those HO/S structures!

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Moonson has hit the nail on the head. York is a cornucopia of trains but, for a family looking for what trains actually do, nope.

Spending $1,000 on a trip to save $800 on two locomotives?  Even accounting for the friendly reunions amongst us it explains many things about poorly run companies

Moonson posted:

shorling posted:

Dave45681 posted:...

On Saturday, I heard one family outside of Red mention something about beinga little disappointed and expecting more (general comment, I think).  I suspect they were surveying the grounds just to get a glimpse of what might be the added attraction if they were to join and have the other halls available.  They clearly knew they could not go in, but I think I heard them mention glancing in and seeing all the people packing up - so the self fulfilling prophecy has come about (no people buying so people close up early, and people who do come around later wonder where all the sellers are and why all the tables are cleared out). ...

...I heard another story from a guard relating that one family that arrived mid afternoon on Friday (possibly after school? didn't get that level of detail) was disappointed because they missed the operating layouts in Black....

Dave, I think you are on the right track.  My observation based on attending other shows is that a large section of the public attends train shows as a family event, they bring their kids to see many running train layouts.  It's fun, the kids like it and they may purchase train items to take home.  The York Train Meet is a mecca  but falls significantly short on running layouts in comparison IMO to other large shows.  Personally, the big draw for me is the mecca but I always enjoy seeing the layouts too.

Interesting points. You made me think that seeing all the ingredients - trains; scenery; trees; little people, etc. - for a model train layout, without seeing actual layouts, also, is a bit like seeing all the ingredients for making a cake all lined up, and no cake, is leaving plenty to the imagination, and affords a lot less in the thrill category.

Wait. What? Did I make a point there somewhere ?

FrankM

I realize we are talking about layout staff free time yet it seems they need to be running while the halls are open for attendees, and it is a thankless job. (Know this from experience, we set-up an operating layout at the 2004 Convention for kids to operate and didn't even get a thank you) Having the show open to them and yet layouts not running seems counter intuitive to the goal of increasing family attendance.

What ever happened to the Great American Train Show?  York has far outlasted it.   GATS used to come to San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Ft Worth, and Houston.  Haven't seen one of those in many years.

Now the Worlds Greatest Hobby comes by every four years.  So that is a reduction of 20 train shows dropping down to 1 or 2.

Could it be a sign of the times/culture, economy, interest level, living space available to use, or finances?

It could be that the magic of electricity and remote control from the prewar and postwar Lionel era is gone.  Now it is expected.  Everything is now miniaturized, comes with an app, a long battery life and adequate cell phone coverage (as well as a short attention span).  So what is the attraction or magic of large electric toy trains to this current culture?

In the end, the York show is the best at what it does.

Bill Webb posted:

We have not noticed enough public members present to matter. See no harm in it but they appear to be a non-factor.

Bill pretty much hit the nail on the head.

C W Burfle posted:

Advertising can be very expensive.
A bunch of participants in the Dealer Halls were calling for the show to be opened to the public. What did they do to spread the word?

 

And yet World's Greatest Hobby can pull in 20,000+ on a weekend - with advertising.

 And a press release to the locals, can spark an article in the local papers/tv/radio - all for the price of a stamp.  

C W Burfle posted:

It looks like the TCA wants this to fail.  No advertising, no outreach.

Advertising can be very expensive.
A bunch of participants in the Dealer Halls were calling for the show to be opened to the public. What did they do to spread the word?

In one of the posts above, someone wrote that they only accidentally found out about the show while traveling in the area.  Here is someone who participates on this board, has an interest in shows, and missed the frequent discussions. So what chance does advertising really have? 

I will agree that the Eastern Division and the National TCA needs to do a better job with their web pages and Facebook pages.

Actually MTH, Lionel, and other facebook pages I follow advertised on their respective pages and websites.  Also seen a few emails with the information from the same.