THE WEBMASTER'S RANT

Rich,

Well said!

Al Kolis  

AMEN! This Forum has been a tremendous help to me and others. It's a hobby, and the "political views", sarcasm, condescension, bashing, etc belongs elsewhere. 

THANK YOU Rich for making this web forum available to us, and for reminding all of US that this is a privately owned forum designed to help the hobby, not degrade it, the members or the manufacturers/suppliers.

RAY

Amen, well said.

Thank you.

Very Good - Thank You Rich

Thanks Rich. Much needed.

This is a great place full of helpful interesting people. We don't need the negatives; if you want that, read the newspaper and write the editor.

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!

If you would be ashamed to show your children or grandchildren something you are going to post here, then DON'T POST IT!

That is beyond cavil.

we have had an unpleasant increase in the level of snarkiness, negativity, sarcasm and condescension among posters here. It has reached a point where I have to speak out about it.

True

post things that are intended to start arguments

There is a very vague line between argument and discussion, and reasonable persons may differ as to when that line is crossed.

I recognize that a very delicate issue is criticism of the products of a forum sponsor.  Their dollars make the forum possible, but they are not perfect (at least, not all).

I didn't realize there was such an issue.

I tend to stick around the tinplate forum though and it's usually pretty laid back.

Sounds great to me! Seems like I have heard "Benevolent Dictatorship" used on another site I visit regularly .

Everyone understands (if they have any sense) that this is a privately owned forum, which means it is as if we are guests in someone's home.

That being said, the moderation here is extensive.  The rule I use when posting is not to say anything to someone here that, if said in person, would cause offense or an argument.  I think that is the spirit of your terms of service, which require a certain degree of discretion in administration.  Many of the people here, some of them long-time contributors, seem to use the same approach.  Yet, many threads are heavily edited or outright deleted.  Moreover, when such editing occurs and there is a commercial motivation at play, that will make people further question whether the limits are being drawn in good faith or are excessively protective of, for example, sponsors.

You have built an excellent magazine and forum, and that is to your credit.  Part of that is, as you say, that you get to decide the rules here.  However, be aware that while that is your choice, if there is too much moderation or people feel that they cannot have an adult discussion without everything disappearing, there will be a cost in terms of participation. 

Finally, in regards to "family" I would offer that it is wonderful in concept but difficult to execute when many of the relationships here (sponsors, people who seem to sell an awful lot of merchandise, the magazine itself) are pecuniary.  There is nothing to apologize about in making a living.  But if a member of the OGR "family" has a serious problem with a vendor who is a sponsor, to take one example, and posts about it here, who will take priority -- the family member or the business relationship?  You are in a tough spot there -- businesses don't fund themselves and you have bills to pay.  But again, there are consequences to how those lines are drawn.

Those are my thoughts.  I appreciate you opening this discussion. 

Spot on Rich.

Thank you!

John

Agreed!  Just because you know what the "correct" information is doesn't mean you can be a jerk about it!  Just because someone asks a question that has been asked before doesn't give you the right to tell them to "do some research" or comment that you hate how this keeps coming up.  And while I too have had a post disappear, it was because they moderator felt it didn't add any value to the discussion or site.  I agreed.  

We are supposed to be intelligent adults so lets act accordingly!  A lot of us need to look at ourselves before criticizing others first.  

And if all else fails... just LET IT GO!  

We can either enjoy what is here and move forward, or drive Rich and the guys to take it down and just publish the magazine.  I for one would rather have this forum too!

I love Rich Melvin !!!

Bullies and louts, begone !

The sheriff is in town . . . 

I'm stepping out of my role of the Notch 6 guy and as a part of the OGR team for just a moment here and back into the role of a long time forum member. Having spent over a decade here, this seems to flare up just about every summer when everyone gets bored.

That being said I have also seen MANY good forum members run out of town because of a few. I will be the first to admit that I have to consciously think about what I post because if I don't a certain two or three members have made it their life goal to correct and stir the pot whenever possible. It seems to me that these folks are permitted to continue to participate because of their wealth of knowledge, but I've heard over and over again how the majority of the group hates how they treat other members. My guess is that if you're reading this then you have come up with your own list of names of members this fits. 

This forum has reached a size now where I believe a group of moderators, made up of more than just OGR staff can step in and help restore some order. Any other forum that has reached this size usually has a group of mods. I'd also like to see this group have some anonymity. I'm tired of watching the OGR staff get put on blast because you don't like their decision. I'd much rather see a group that can make moderation decisions together and that the magazine trusts their integrity to make those decisions. The OGR staff should have larger tasks to manage than babysitting this forum. 

I hope OGR will consider letting some other folks join into the moderation of this forum. I personally feel like this forum has reached a critical juncture where if not carefully maintained that it will go the way of the AOL boards. With new media coming along every year, it's only a matter of time before someone starts something new and fresh. One of the draws when something like that comes along is that when it is a small community that the bad apples tend not to show up for awhile and it does feel like a family. The negativity killed the AOL boards and that's when everyone jumped ship and moved over here. I'd like to see this stay as the primary place for us all to congregate, but we need to continue to keep things in check. 

*Steps off the soap box*

"We control the level of discourse here in order to keep the OGR Forum an enjoyable place to share the hobby of O Gauge Railroading without rancor, name calling and all the other negative nonsense that can drag a forum down.'

  I think the problem comes when you over moderate and throw out long threads of interesting conversation just because a few posts within the thread are offensive.  It's certainly your right as owner but it doesn't make your customers happy. I think the more effective way to deal with the truly offensive posts would be to deal with the offensive posters individually and leave the conversations intact. At some point participants will give up on a discussion site if things keep dis-appearing. Perhaps the magazine doesn't view the discussion forum as a valuable asset , if so the heavy moderation might not matter but if you want to keep a healthy forum going it's best to let the members decide what they want to read as much as possible. ......DaveB

Thank you Rich. Well said.

Although it's rather long, everyone who has a problem with censorship and your freedom of speech rights on this forum should read this:   http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/09/free-speech-in-online-communities-the-delusion-of-entitlement/

Well put Rich. Unfortunately a few (possibly 5%) are taking up 95% of the moderators time. I say 3 strikes and your out. (Off the forum)

Rich, I feel so fortunate to have this site.  I have yet to have a train issue that I didn't get many helpful replies.  Plus I have learned so much about layout techniques and ideas and the list could go on and on.  It is also the best sale/trade/wanted site in the train hobby community. 

It is a shame but it is the same old story that when something is very, very good, there is always a few someones out there to abuse it and break the rules.  It is a lot like the few collectors who criticize York Meets and TCA Conventions while never lifting a finger to support them or assist at them.

I want to give you and your staff a very big vote of confidence.  A job well done and I applaud your willingness to enforce your very fair rules.

Jim Lawson

I have lurked on this forum for many years.

I have only posted a few times when I saw gross misinformation being thrown about.

I think OGR is an outstanding resource for model train information.

The reason I do not get more involved on this forum is due to the moderation and the attitude of the forum administration.

I'm sure most of the regulars here will not speak up and say what they are really think as they would be afraid of being kicked off or shunned by the forum/administration. I myself have no such worries, as if I did get booted over this response, it would really just reinforce my point.

That being said, the attitude of the administration is in my opinion, the biggest downfall of this forum. in your own words:

"You do NOT have the right of free speech here. This is not a public place. This is a privately owned "Benevolent Dictatorship" web site that we provide for you to participate in of your own free will."

I'm sorry but with an attitude like that, it's really not the type of place I have wanted to get to involved with.

I understand that OGR is one of if not the top O-Gauge forums on the NET right now, but with an attitude like this, things will change. Things ARE changing. Over the past months I have watched major forum members/contributors make the decision to leave this forum due to ridiculous moderation. I see good topics with very good information get deleted over insanely little things that the moderators deem to go against their ideals.

When moderation takes over and begins to stop people from being able to speak freely and openly discuss what they want, they will move on and find a venue that will let them have that freedom.

I suspect that if this type of "Benevolent Dictatorship" continues that Forum membership will start to fall, post counts will begin to drop, digital and paper subscriptions will diminish... Just because anyone is

I do not know if this post will remain live, but I would love to have the opportunity to hear other TRUE feeling and observations.

Behind you 100% Rich. 

Mr. Melvin, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this forum is invaluable to me.  

1.  It enhances my experience in the O Gauge hobby

2.  It has led me to meet people across this country and as far as Switzerland who I now consider friends. 

3.  I find more fellowship and support from members of this forum than sadly, I do in my own local clubs.  

4.  I have found solutions to problems I otherwise would have paid someone else to fix for me.

5.  I have felt the reward of sharing my designs, my creations and my creativity with others who have appreciated it and encouraged me along the way. 

This and many other rewards.  And all of it for FREE!!!

I am very glad you spoke up Mr. Melvin.  I have had to bite my tongue on many occasion when reading some of the snarky, mean spirited and sarcastic dialogue on various sections of the forum.  

We've all heard the adage, "Opinions are like @ss#oles, everybody's got one."  

The other side of that adage is, "Have as many opinions as you want.  Resist the temptation to express each and every one of them.  Because 9 out of 10 times, it's not an original thought and if it's negative, nobody that's here for the right reasons wants to hear it."  I come to this forum to escape.  The same reason I go to my train room to run on my layout, to escape.  To have fun, to unwind.

We're playing with TOY TRAINS folks!  Key words there are 'PLAYING' and 'TOYS'.  I'm at a loss as to what's so hard about that for some to embrace.  I've got 3 kids.  And never once have they expressed anything but absolute joy when it's time to 'PLAY' with their 'TOYS'.  It's meant to be a good thing.  The only time it turns negative is when it's time to stop, 'PLAYING' with 'TOYS'. 

The formula to enjoying this forum is so incredibly simple:  BE NICE!

You can do so many things here.  Buy, sell, trade, give advice, get advice, share pictures and videos, watch other's videos and admire their work, get ideas, give ideas, stay in touch, be in touch. And on and on and on.

If you want to be miserable.  Good for you, enjoy.  Go do it somewhere else.  

I don't tolerate the curmudgeons in this hobby.  Don't have time for them and won't let them detract from my enjoyment in the hobby.  

Just the same, this forum shouldn't tolerate them either.  

Mr. Melvin, I support your right to ban the nitpickers, the Debbie Downers, the naysayers and in general the jerks from this forum, LIBERALLY.  Get them out of here.  Those that can play nice with others...we outnumber those that can't. 

This forum is a gift, a privilege, and a free one at that.  

It's not a right.  

Appreciate it, be nice or go home!

Right on !!!

I agree with Rich and thank him for his efforts and this message. A former CSX engineeer/museum curator friend of mine once said "There is a lot of anger in the railfan community." He was right. All one has to do is go read some of the other forums and you will see what I mean.  (TO)  In fact, I recently left that forum because I'd had enough. OGR has been different for the most part, and as long as it stays civil, I'll stay (and pay!)

What is REALLY good about this forum is that so many people who have incredible skills and knowledge take the time to be gracious and helpful to others.

Sounds right to me.  

Being the admin on another board, I can agree that it's truly a thankless job and very few appreciate the free service.

Thanks Rich.  It can not be any clearer.

Trainguy4014, whether you realize it or not, this is a fundamental underlying principle of EVERY on-line venue where people participate with posts of their own. We are no different in this policy than Facebook, Twitter and virtually every other on-line venue where people participate in discussions.

It is not an "attitude" as much as it is a simple desire to keep this forum on-topic and a friendly place to be. To ignore this policy would result in anarchy and we would quickly go the way of the old AOL boards.

All that sounds good, but am I allowed to post trains with Confederate flags on them?

Seriously Rich you have done a great job of monitoring the forum and we all know from time to time you have to reel it back in. We also know we need to have thick skin for those who choose to be a little abrasive. The forum works and it works well.

Thanks,

Scott Smith

Rich made a very valid point that is vastly overlooked in our society today.  You don't necessarily have the right to regulate the operation of another company's free business enterprise just because you don't like what they say or do.  If you don't like the moderation or "censorship" in this forum, you certainly do have the option of starting your own forum/blog/website.  That and other freedoms are some of the huge advantages of living in America.  I have only noticed one post that got removed.  It blatantly criticized the quality of another persons item that they had posted to sell.  This is generally a very helpful, well organized, well intentioned forum.  I haven't seen anything like it anywhere else.  And I am sure I would not enjoy it being run by a democracy.  The small group serving as a benevolent dictatorship serves this website well.  And yes there are sponsors and a commercial aspect.  That is what allows us to post/exchange/buy/sell/trade all FOR FREE.

The age old adage applies:

"It's not what you say, it how you say it."

Rusty

Well said Rich, and thank you!!

Thank you, Rich.  I don't post much but only because I don't have a lot to say.  But I enjoy the forum and have bought and sold a few things through the buy and sell pages.  Don't let the few tell you all about how you over moderate.  You do not.  And you certainly have not lost forum members-if anything it keeps growing and growing.  So let the folks who feel so constrained and muzzled that they can hardly stand it just move on to where they feel more comfortable.  And leave the rest of us alone.  To paraphrase a song:

"We like it,

We love it,

We just can't get enough of it,

We like this forum so much

We want some more of it."

While I can get off topic and on tangents, I don't call people on the forum names

(which has happened to me twice recently, apparently by an unread, unlearned, and narrow-minded individual, who was doing exactly that, inserting his (mis)interpretation of patriotism into the forum).  I appreciate this opportunity to talk, and LEARN, and, if I am lucky, even contribute a little about this hobby, and do not want that boat rocked.  I have learned a lot here, and I have kept up with the hobby, and it is appreciated.  If I get offensive, I should be booted off, much less strictly monitored.

Sounds good to me.

I agree totally with Rich.  This forum is a wonderful asset to the O gauge community.  A couple of the posts that I started have been deleted.  Hopefully the reason was that someone said something inappropriate in one of the replies and it was not because of something that I wrote.

Frankly, I don't care if my posts are deleted for whatever reason.  OGR has the absolute right and I would also say the obligation to control the content of the "OGR" forum.  In the end, everything that is posted here impacts OGR's reputation and commercial success.  The forum would not exist if OGR is not successful.  

I don't think that "over moderation" is a problem.  Most of the posts that have been deleted involve politics (which shouldn't be here), bashing other posters or a product.  People who want to complain about a product should contact the manufacturer or vendor.  People should never bash another poster because they don't have as much "train experience" as they do.  Bashing newbies is a problem throughout the model railroad hobby and is one reason there is such a large problem attracting new people to the hobby.  

The is a great forum and I feel blessed that OGR allows me and everyone else participate.

NH Joe

Stay on topic and make no personal attacks on other people is not rocket science or train engineering but common sense. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but in a private forum everyone is not entitled to post their opinions and I am fine with that. This is a hobby for fun not social outreach or politics. I have been a bit grumpy a couple of times and for that I am sorry. Let's move on.

 <<<<If you would be ashamed to show your children or grandchildren something you are going to post here, then DON'T POST IT!>>>>>

Perfectly stated

The one thing that gets me is replies in which personal attacks are thrown out. It shows weakness in the poster that has to resort to these attacks. Even replying and downgrading a poster by their post is a personal attack. Rather ignore the post, and sooner or later it will dissapear.

Rather, contact the moderator.