THE WEBMASTER'S RANT

Were it not for this forum, and all the terrific members my train hobby would still be relegated to running some trains on a sheet of plywood as opposed to building a real layout.  I am building things which I never would have considered were it not for the talented folks here who always seem ready, willing and able to help.   For that I am so very thankful.

 

i believe the forum is more and more becoming a victim of its own success. In any group there will always be a person(s) unfamiliar with the meaning of simple common courtesy to others.  There will also be some people who for whatever reason seem to always be angry or negative about something. Regardless of all the good intentions and hard work by the moderator these issues will continue to pop up and need to be addressed.

 

I have never been a fan of the 3 strikes and you are out mentality.  If someone is clearly rude, discourteous or simply causing trouble, then why waste time, just boot them off the forum thus saving the moderator time, energy and aggravation.   It is a shame they have to waste time dealing with this nonsense.

 

 

Ed

   

I have had some posts deleted like many others.  Didn't understand why sometimes but it isn't my sandbox so........................If I don't like it I can not renew my subscription and leave the forum.  You can say whatever you want in here, they can't stop you from posting.  However, if they don't like what you post they can remove it.  Like Walter Cronkite used to say" AND THAT'S THE WAY IT IS."  They make the rules and you have a choice to follow them or not.  I am not always in agreement but like I said earlier, not my sandbox.  In a perfect world people would not hijack threads, trash manufacturers because they prefer some other.  Let's try to use the forum the way it was intended, to help, to teach and to learn.

Mr. Melvin,

 

I greatly appreciate your efforts to keep this forum running especially since it is an excellent free resource to O gauge railroading. 

 

If I could give any suggestion it would be to moderate this forum across all members equally. I, as others have mentioned already, have noticed there are a few members on this forum who offer lots of expertise, but often respond to amateur questions regarding their field of expertise with hostility. 

 

Secondly, these experts often with their answers provoke inappropriate responses out of the original questioner and other forum members who try to chime in with their knowledge about the topic. Typically from what I have read I have noticed that this then causes the thread to go out of control due to the member with expertise demeaning the person whose facts are wrong or misinterpreted. Upon that I have additionally noticed that when moderating this forum, you as the moderator have chastised the person who writes an inappropriate response to the expert (which is right on your part), but have never mentioned to the expert (publicly) that they should also watch their tone and attitude towards others who are looking to learn. 

 

Granted, if someone states something grossly incorrect about the field of expertise of the expert member they have every right to correct them. The difference comes down to whether or not they do it civilly. Many people on this forum read extensively, as do I, and think they know facts about something, but maybe are mistaken. Typical normal human beings (which most forum members here are) can admit they are wrong if told politely they are, but a typical normal human being at the same time will not easily admit their wrong if their intellectual capacity is questioned due to their wrong statement. 

 

For example Mr. Melvin it would be like you stating that our heart is on the right side of our body and I reply stating "Where did you get THAT information? Have you ever studied human anatomy? You should do your research before you say something like THAT!"

 

My statement neither corrects you or promotes the discussion to further the conversation. Which is the point of the threads here. All it serves to do is provoke an inappropriate response out of someone who does not like being spoken to that way. (Which are most human beings who have feelings anyways.)

 

All I am saying to you in regards to all of this is that if you are looking to make this forum more welcoming and promoting towards the hobby, it would be a great first step to rule with a heavy hand across all members regardless of their level of expertise about anything. By doing so you treat person A the same as person B regarding what they state. 

 

I hope this helps to improve this forum overall and help to constructively build this forum into becoming an even better resource than what it already is.

 

Thanks for everything! 

 

Some posters are going through male menopause, and I'll leave it at that.

Rich, you have explained the rules and explained why to the questions. I agree with all you posted.  So be it. This is the best forum going, let's keep it that way and following the rules will keep it that way.

 

Jack 

Amen!

The "Free Speech" thing seems to pop up on every forum I've been a part of.  Folks just don't realize that it's like being in someone else's home.  Sure you have free speech, but the homeowner has the right to kick you out.

 

If everyone followed the last guideline the world would be a much happier place.

 

Lastly, I just thought I'd add that I've been a part of alot of forums on alot of different hobbies and in my short time here, this seems like a very well-run place populated by well-meaning folks.

Understand 100%

thank you for what you do

Thanks Rich for your publication and forum. It keeps me in touch whether I am actively building a layout or just staying close the hobby.

I can only imagine the build up to this post. It isn't something you came to quickly but it must have built up  over time. 

If it makes contributors think before posting then it will have done its job. 

I have October 15th in the pool when you will need to send out a reminder rant!

 

Think first, then post.

 

look at todays youth, they feel they can post anything they want without any repercussions. I just saw a video on TV where a person was riding a moose in Australia they posted the video on facebook. stupid. authorities are looking for them.

 

here in san diego young people are calling schools and reporting bad things are going to happen. yet most of these people are caught because web sites log the IP address.

 

do you have the ability to log IP addresses?  if so, log the ip address and ban the one who start arguments.

 

 

Not a rant. Unfortunate that the post was/is necessary.  Your points are appreciated.

Thanks, Rich.

 

You have to admit though that some posts can not go unchallenged. I also admit sometimes I take the bait and respond, not some of my best moments. 

 

I have been been on this board from the beginning and I have seen many people come and go and some not voluntarily. 

 

I do appreciate all the work the OGR team does to keep us on topic, most of the time. 

Yes, we log IP addresses. I have used that feature in the past to take care of certain troublemakers.

Bingo!

 

And a good time to add that some posters here (they know who they are) are the most passive-aggressive folks around. They love to stir the pot with the same old tired complaints and then when challenged play the woe, poor me, I didn't mean it card.

 

Please.

I am a newbe here but like totally agree

Laing

My gripe, like many, is that good threads get dumped because of one or two lousy posters, and one or two lousy posters push out good contributors. If those posts got removed, and those posters dealt with, it would be a much more readable forum. I also see favoritism for some posters with crap attitudes, and sometimes they need to be dealt with as well, even if you're friends/colleagues in real life.

 

I get it's your forum, your rules, but, like many things in this hobby, I see an unwillingness to adapt or change to make things better (this is how it was, is, and will always be). That kind of attitude drives old heads out, and doesn't provide a welcome entrance for new folks. 

Makes sense to me. I applaud you Rich for speaking out.  It was long overdue IMO.

Mr. Melvin,

 

I have no problem at all with the rules you have esblished for this excellent forum.  It's a shame that you had to even take the time to explain them.  Please continue to keep a tight grip on those that spoil the enjoyment of this forum.  For those that can't follow simple rules intended to insure respect for all forum members, stay off this site...go facebook or some other site to fulfill your need to critisize.   

On the subject of negative product comments and "constructive criticism":

There was a court case recently involving a certain national website where businesses are listed and people can write in comments and rate the business or service.  The case involved a carpet cleaning business that was getting bad reviews and the business pursued the identity of the anonymous individuals through the court system.  The intent was to see if they had actually been customers or were writing bad reviews trying to help a competitor.  Turns out they were not past customers.  They were saying bad things to try and divert prospective customers away from their competitors business.  Both they and the website suffered financial loss. 

Since this forum is not a site that has its members rate businesses or products, it is extremely wise to keep that information/allegations off of this forum.  While the honest facts would probably be beneficial to the members, the downside is very obvious. 

As for the profit motive in the whole OGR empire, gee I certainly hope so.  That is the engine that drives this forum, the magazine, et. al.  Hopefully the advertisers are treated so well at OGR that all hobby shops, small businesses and competitors will be excited to be advertisers, contribute, and reap the benefits of advertising at OGR.

 

Benevolent dictator, hmmm, somebody's gotta do it.  Nothing I have ever posted got deleted so far, but I do read and re-read all of my posts and ask myself the obvious questions.  I certainly don't want my mom or kids to cringe if they read something I have written, not only here but everywhere.  My company's criteria is pretty good:  do you want to repeat it in court, would you want your family to hear about it on the news, would you want that said or done to any of your family.  Pretty simple.

 

If it is so bad here, then you should go to the other forum that is better (I haven't found anything close yet). I mean really, does the bad outweigh the good?

I do agree with the three strikes and you are asked to leave. 

I have never been a moderator, but looking at the number and size of threads, WOW, who has time to read all of that and decide.  Moses couldn't do it.  Just kill the thread probably makes sense even though it causes some pain.

 

Great job, Rich. 

Great forum. 

Great, knowledgeable, eager to help, people. 

Great information exchange. 

Man, what a great country we live in.

Whenever I'm confronted with a "rant". I've always tried to put myself in the position of the person "ranting".

 

So, while this forum is a tremendous asset to O gauge hobbyists, it is also a vital asset to O Gauge Railroading. The print world is dying and magazines are fighting to hold circulation in a world that is quickly moving to a digital format. In that light, protecting the economic value of the forum has to be vital to the future success of the OGR organization. Thus OGR must act in its own economic interests in protecting advertisers, deleting objectionable posts and maintaining standards of decorum and expression that are vital to protecting its online asset.

 

Forum participants benefit from a reasonably friendly forum provided free to users (but not cost free to the provider in terms of time and money) which serves some as a source of information. For others it becomes an online community replete with expressions of concern, sympathy, etc.

 

Considering the time, money and personal effort the OGR team expends while providing a free resource, the moderators do an exemplary job. (And, yes some threads I've been involved in have been deleted.)

 

A big thanks to Rich, Allan, Alan and the OGR crew!

Being on this forum is like going to someone's house or having people come visit you. You adhere to the rules whether you like them or not. If you don't like the rules stop visiting. If company does not like your rules don't invite them over. I can not believe that grown adults can not get along on a site that is free to them to use as an adult

The Webmaster and the other moderators do a tough job, and it's a fact of life that the job can't be done without drawing an occasional complaint from members or bruised feelings.

 

This forum is by far my favorite train site, and I'm only tangentially involved in O scale right now. In spite of that I get more good ideas and techniques here than anywhere else.

 

That being said I do have concerns. There are too many political posts. This is a train forum, not the Meet The Press discussion board or a Fox News outlet. I could care less about your politics...and it really isn't the focus of this site. The same can be said for your religious views. 

 

I could care less if some of you long for the good old days when the world made more sense to you. You have every right to feel that way, but perhaps you should vent about it somewhere else. I do understand that this is a hobby that is heavily influenced by personal memories of childhood or simpler times, but there is a clear difference between having and sharing feelings of nostalgia and incessantly carping on about today's world compared to a warped utopian view of a past that never really existed.

 

Also, if you're a moderator or part of the management here and I know all about your political opinions because you can't stop yourself from editorializing then you should reevaluate your methodology for running this site, or change the focus of the forum accordingly. IMO some of you cross this line at times, and in doing so you enable some of the behavior by the membership that draws your ire...

 

I'm as human as the next guy--and sometimes it burns my butt because someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET!! But here's the deal...I need to learn to let it roll off my back and let it go. All of us including myself need to calm down from time to time and redirect the conversation back toward trains, because that's the real reason this place exists.

 

Jeff C

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

totally agree Rich. Thanks for this great place.

just a thought...some of the car forums I get on, if a member stirs the pot too much, they get a vacation for a while. If they repeat the pot stirring, they get a permanent vacation.

Others have said things to the same effect, this is just the most recent, so gets the quote today.  

 

While I don't particularly disagree with the ownership of the forums running them however they like, and however they think is the best method, here are my thoughts, as requested.  

 

1.  folks should be moderated equally, no favoritism just because someone may have some sort of standing in the o gauge community, a wealth of knowledge, or insider connections.  

 

2. A.   I don't think this forum could exist without mention of products, and simply giving complements is fairly useless.  Yes, the TOS state that critiquing products is not allowed, but is seems that it is only half-heartly enforced.  It seems that honest experiences with particular products have never been a problem for the administration of the site, but only broad negative comments of companies as a whole.  I feel the TOS should be changed to reflect this apparent stance.  Perhaps allowing for product reviews with full disclosure of merits AND FLAWS of products.  

 

2.  B.  Several posts in this thread directly and indirectly state that advertisers will be given special treatment, and that forum members will not be allowed to speak poorly of these income generators.  This is good business on one hand, as you keep the advertisers happy and paying the bills.  On the other hand, it means that any product review in any copy of OGR magazine must now be thrown in the trash as it can not be expected to be an honest, and un-biased product review, but rather a nice long advertisement for whatever product it is.  

 

3.  The administration is free to moderate in any way they choose.  Some things are good in running a tight ship, others bad.  Allowing a few "experts" to run roughshod over others is likely to drive folks away that make have plenty of their own expertise to offer, but choose not to wield it like a scepter over others.  

 

4. Folks may want to look into a better forum hosting software if the current one does not have an enough of a feature set to provide advanced functions.  This ties into #5.

 

5.  The information may or may not be available to the public as to how many digital subscribers there are.  I made a rough guess based on there being 32 in the first 500 names of members.  This provided me with an estimate that 6.4% of forum members are digital subscribers.  The number was closer to 20% of the folks that actually participate on the forum regularly, but I digress.  6.4% of the 17,176 forum members as of this writing is just about 1100 estimated digital subscribers, or about $2,750 a month of income for OGR.  Based on Rich's comment of the servers costing "Several Thousand Dollars a month to operate and maintain this forum", it seems to me the users are already footing the bill.  I can picture the real costs being a bit higher due to bandwidth, but then again, while 8 million views a month is a lot... the data is almost entirely text.  

Long story short the digital subscribers are already paying at least half, if not all the cost to host this forum.  Perhaps they should be given equal standing to the advertisers that provide the other (maybe) half of the funding.  

 

"There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil."  -  Ayn Rand

 

Hi Rich,

 

Thanks for the reminder. I enjoyed meeting you at York. The forum has been a great source of information for a hobby that can be very complex and difficult to understand.  The fact that many are willing to share advice is truly a gift.  Abiding by some simple rules is not much to ask.

 

the other "Dave B" 

 I totally agree with your statement Rich,BUT also one thing that some on here tend to be is know it all's and show themselves or a side of themselves that produces negativity on the various forums.

 

 If they DO know what their talking about ,don't come across like a mean person to those that may not know as much,you know show some tolerance to those whom just don't know. In other words some people need better people skills.

 

 But again thank-you for bringing this topic up for discussion because some things just need corrected to keep this site family friendly and enjoyed by all 

 

 

 

This is a terrific forum, period. Why people have to be so argumentive and not abide by simple rules is beyond me? Those who can't will be long gone and the OGR forum will still be here to enjoy!

 

After the demise of the atlas forum i am grateful this place exists, not residing in the US and only getting there once a year where else would I get my daily fix of US O scale in English, I am sure other O scales outside the US feel the same regardless of whether English is their first language. It's not perfect and I accept that, one of the other forums is so mind numbing - concerning itself with restoring stuff that belongs in landfill so this is my default daily first stop after the BBC.

First, thanks for operating this forum as it can be a good place to learn and read some interesting information.

 

Some months ago I stopped posting as the moderation , deleted posts and theads became too frustrating.  I have always been straight forwarrd in speaking and perhaps that is not a good way to be here.

 

thanks too for offering this chance to comment on this subject. 

 

One suggestion I would make is limit the vendor's selling posts, or put those posts in a vendor section. Another would be to keep this forum on subject by removing posts of a personal nature that have little or nothing to do with trains, such as the posts about dog deaths. I know the owners are sad and need to express their grief, but is this the place for that? As much as you promote this as the OGR "family", it is really just some guys talking about model trains.

 

I also would like to share that , yes, this is your website and you make the rules, but perhaps the way your stating our absence of free speech could itself be moderated in a friendlier manner. Although it is just my opinion, you may be shutting out people with interesting things to say. 

 

thanks, Fred

quote:

I didn't say put your address.  People are less likely to be internet cowards when they use their name and email.  

 

Its not hard to get an address when you have a person's name and email.

Rich, well said and keep up the good work!

 

I am sure that just about all of us use this site to get help and ideas from others and in return give help and ideas.

 

Can you imagine how far behind our hobby would be if we didn't have the internet and relying on just magazines?

 

It is as simple as the Golden Rule.

Steve 

While I understand the need to delete disparaging posts, I am troubled with the heavy-handedness of the moderator's approach, and the Orwellian attitude expressed in the defense of such practices (for example, the "benevolant dictatorship" comment). It is immature.

 

If you truly wish to characterize this forum as a family, then do not allow indiscriminate post or thread deleting to marginalize OGR customers. I felt insulted and offended when my innocent post with a question about magne-traction was immediately deleted by Rich. I never participated or contributed since that time, and stopped purchasing OGR as a result. 

 

I have no issue with OGR's pervasive slashing of their customer's posts. But, please do not characterize this as a forum to benefit the hobby, when for-profit interests dictate the removal of any posts where members share poor experiences with a product. If you hide information about bad products, how does this benefit the hobby? Regardless of who owns this forum, or has the right to do so, it remains deceptive and dishonest. 

 

You may enjoy your reign as benevolent dictator, but you will not be enjoying my money.

 

Sincerely,

 

Greg Reinke

I have long enjoyed this forum, prior to "this" screen name. I had another one, forgot the password, and wound up just creating this one. I still see my "old" name in the member list!

 

I understand this is a pretty thankless job - I moderated a much smaller forum for a few years on a different website. Granted the traffic was much lighter and the "regulars" were a good group of guys, but still...

 

Only two "gripes" that I have are, 1) as mentioned, there is one or two folks that especially hang out on the "real trains" forum that are total @$$holes. Outside of the real trains forum, if a member does something perhaps not exactly like the prototype or outside of their approval he comes after them like  a bat outta h#ll. I guess since the moderators and him are friends from their "real train" experience, he gets a pass. 2) I've had more than a few posts where I mention a store that is not a protected forum sponsor and I see my post edited to remove the store name or deleted. Not sure if it is Rich, the Ad Man or whoever but I really dislike, and I strongly believe it doesn't help the hobby if any store that doesn't sponsor the forum is "off limits" for discussion. This includes poor experiences with forum and non forum sponsors. Quite frankly, I just think it is pretty low that an organization that wants to promote the hobby will remove any and all references to businesses that may not fall within "their circle" but still do a great job at promoting the hobby and getting people involved. 

 

I've since let my paper subscription run out and have no interest in renewal of it or signing up for the digital edition. If there is something I want to read (rarely) I'll read it at my LHS and put it back on the shelf. 

Four pages on this, amazing .  You do become "Thick skinned" after awhile, but that's O.K.  In general the rest of the world doesn't react a whole lot different than what you see here. IMO   You can easily delete your presence in any thread, I do it often, why bother with BS, plenty of other projects beyond this forum.  Michael C. Thompson. 

I have been a member on this Forum since September 2004 and still believe that , excluding some personality and egos issues, this Forum is a great asset to 3-Rail and O Scale modelers.

There seems to be a very small group of individuals who are creating issues for Rich Melvin, his staff and for the vast majority of the Forum members with their sarcastic,cynical, argumentative and morose comments/responses to member postings. Probably the best solution for all is that these individuals should start there own forum completely independent of the OGR Forum and the rest of us remain on the OGR Forum. 

Ihave been in  O Gauge off n on over the years and I am happy to be part of this group of experience folks. I am happy what Rich said. I have received alot off good and new information from this group. Thanks Rich.

Thanks for addressing this. 

Thank you OGR make it short & sweet. I see names up here that I haven't

seen in a while. Mike.

Over all, I like the Forum and have benefited from it both with info and buying some nice items but the "protecting" of hobby  store advertisers is annoying.  Criticisms of anyone should be carefully done and that always doesn't happen. I use my name so people know who I am. I was on a military re-enacting forum and used a common word for a Native American woman which, unbeknownst to me, is now a bad word thanks to "political correctness". Two guys threatened me with physical violence but I still use my name, i thy wanted me they could come and get me. So the O gauge forum isn't such a bad place. I am in to trains, real and toy to enjoy the hobbyy.