THE WEBMASTER'S RANT

I really enjoy the Forum and appreciate the control because I saw another forum destroyed by a few.  I think OGR should bring out a cap with the forum logo on it. It would be ID at shows and railfanning.

Absolutely a great option!  Fortunately one that I have felt compelled to use for only a very few other posters.

Jim

This is a great reason to make it mandatory to use your real name and email in your profile.

This is also the reason that many good people do not post here any more.

Dave

Dave Minarik:  I strongly disagree.  Many years ago I wrote an article in OGR about a loco control system I had designed and was using.  I received a letter excoriating me because I had not included technical test results.  This made me realize there are nuts out there.  I also value my privacy, to the point that if this became required, I'd leave the forum completely.

So I have to be nice or keep my mouth shut?

I used to be on a site where the timestamp of a deleted post remained after the contents of the post were deleted by the moderator.  So it looked like:

post by Person A - deleted by moderator. 

Post by Person B - deleted by moderator. 

Etc.

I personally liked this, since I could make a value judgment about the usefulness of person A, person B, etc. If desired, I could automatically hide posts by person.  But, say person A said something really bad, and persons B, C, and D took him to task.  Any moderator worthy of the name would delete the original post and all replies to it.  But to someone looking at the thread after the fact could think that persons A, B, C, D were all bad people.

So the moderators just started deleting posts with no notification to the outside world, so as not to offend innocent parties.  I'm not as happy with this approach, but a) it's not my 'right' to know everything that goes on and b) it's not my forum, so I don't get to make the rules.

The moderators have other things to do besides making us play nice.  Let's cut them some slack.

BTW, does HoopLa have a 'preview' function by username?  That function always played havoc with threads since the 'previewed' post was usually approved hours/days later, and always seemed out of place.

Explained out and open.

Many deletes are caused by brand loyalties. It seems we just can't get over that speed bump.

Now can we all get back to playing trains!

Brad

I do not think the Webmaster's original post was a rant.  I would call it a reminder of "good manners."  I will follow the reminder.

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"

Well stated, Rich. I agree 100%.

Thanks Rich!

  Well said, Rich

  I especially appreciate your keeping the trolls off the site.

  Keep up the good work you are appreciated.

Douglas

You have no idea why because you obviously have not read the Terms of Service. Here is item #8 for your enjoyment:
When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle. When you post about such a difference of opinion, the other side usually doesn't have the opportunity to defend himself on the Forum so such things can become very one-sided and unfair very quickly. In the interest of fairness, if you actually name the other party in such a post, creating the potential, given the vast reach of the Internet, for what might be a very unfair character assassination, we are going to delete the thread. In a similar light, posts whose purpose we judge to be primarily to bash another person, vendor, manufacturer, etc., will be deleted.

Does the deletion policy make sense now?

 If I could do this, I would. However, the software which runs this forum does not provide me with any automated way to provide that information.

Johnnyspeed, do you understand that this forum, the magazine subscriptions, the ads which run in the magazine and the products we sell all put bread on my table and the tables of everyone else on the OGR Staff? We are not running a charity here, we are running a business. If we do not protect the advertisers who have stepped up and paid good money to sponsor this forum, how long do you think those sponsors would stick around?

Those ads that you are "subject to" are part of what keeps this forum a free service to you. It costs us several thousand dollars a month to operate and maintain this forum. The server on which this forum runs serves in excess of 8 million pages every month! The kind of hardware it takes to support that level of internet traffic is hugely expensive, not to mention the bandwidth charges we incur.

In your post you said, "Advertisement is a revenue stream for OGR..."  OF COURSE IT IS! What do you think we are selling here and in the pages of OGR, left-handed widgets?  Wow.

The initial round "Weaver Going Out Of Business" threads were deleted because AT THE TIME THEY WERE POSTED THE FACTS COULD NOT BE CONFIRMED! At the time it was all hearsay and rumor. It was not "official" until Joe Hayter himself confirmed this news. Once that happened, we posted the FACTUAL and CORRECT information for you to read.

Lee Willis has decided not to post here for a while and that is his prerogative. In any case, this forum is not for the discussion of PEOPLE, it is for the discussion of model trains. That's why those threads were deleted.

Any forum this large needs a degree of moderation to keep posts on topic, to keep politics out, to eliminate insulting comments, and so on. Generally I feel the moderators of this forum do a good job. However there are two areas of fairly high thread deletions I've noticed in the last several months:

• When non-forum sponsors are mentioned even in passing. For example there was a thread a while back that asked about hobby shops in a certain area that he was visiting. That thread got deleted several times as non-Forum sponsor hobby shops were mentioned. It didn't seem to make any difference that the nearest forum sponsor to that area was 150 miles away.
• Threads that try to give an honest review of a manufacturer's product warts and all. The specific threads I have in mind were on the Lionel E8. For the most part these threads were honest opinions of what Lionel got right and what it could do better on. It appeared to me that the slightest criticism perceived by the moderators got the thread deleted.

OGR is a commercial business and needs to keep its sponsors and the manufacturers happy so they can continue to receive ad revenue. I get that. What I would like to see is the OGR moderators post a more detailed explanation as to:

• when mentioning non-forum sponsors is acceptable.
• the allowable limits on constructive criticism of a manufacturer's product.

Ken

Hopefully everyone will abide by the rules that have clearly been in place. I for one do not visit the site nearly as much as I use to do. There is simply to much negativity and if you say the wrong thing many times you hear about it. I have enough drama in my life I do not want it here, this is suppose to be an enjoyable hobby. I appreciate the fact that Rich Melvin provides this site for all of us to use!! Thanks Rich

Jeff

Personally, I love the forum.  It is a great service.  However, since it is "a benevolent dictatorship", I would like to see the following non train related posts deleted immediately: Birth announcements, death announcements, happy birthday announcements, medical procedures or events, loss of animals and other items that have nothing to do with trains. I suspect most of the forum readers have no idea who the individual or situation is that is being reported.   Facebook is out there for personal posts.  Just my two cents.

How you are supposed to act is, to simplify it, universal. Like the social rules that you were never told of, yet you know exactly what they are and how to follow them.

Rich,

Admire your leadership and determination to keep the forum proper. And, thank you for you and your staff for the forum. I visit daily and much appreciate it!

Ray

I disagree with the suggestion that e-mail be required. I'll stand by any of my comments on the forum and in judgement by my peers ON THE FORUM. The Webmaster has the e-mail and he can deliver whatever message in private he needs.

If someone finds it necessary to get in touch with me, they can write me a message on the forum and I'll decide if I want to speak with the person offline. If I did not respond, it certainly would not be out of fear.

"It's frustrating for all of us to see our stuff deleted after taking the time to post thoughtful contributions to interesting topics."

   Yeah, that's why I feel that over moderation does more harm than good. We can choose to not read the posts we don't agree with but we lose the choice when whole threads are deleted due to a few offensive posts. I'd prefer to do without that "protection"and do my own point of readership censoring. I take the view point that one can never have too much information or too many choices.  I know moderating a forum is a difficult and thankless task and I really appreciate the work the staff puts in keeping it going. One way I've seen that works to keep things civil and free up the staff for more important projects is to let any registered member mark a post for deletion then if it's propriety is questioned it gets reviewed by a moderator later. Contrary to first impression this system works and guys don't end up deleting everything the first day :&gt I guess they realize that others can delete their posts too so they show restraint. and yes it is a model railroading site that uses that method so we are not beyond help......DaveB

Curious about the "Block this Member" feature. What can the blocked member able to do or see to a post or comment?

And I want an OGR hat.  

It doesn't stop anybody from posting or commenting to a thread.  However, their posts will be collapsed with an option for you to expand the post to read it.  You also won't receive email notifications when blocked members respond to a thread you are watching. 

All the action is on your end.  You choose what you want to see and read.

Jim

Agreed.  It is a great place to share ideas and learn something new.  If they let all negative ones on the forum it will lose its appeal.  I would hate to lose such a great resource.

Thank you for the forum, and all the work you put in to keep it going

Amen!!!  Thank you Rich

Alex

Well said, Rich.

I also agree with your position on this and am sorry that you had to post this type of message to the forum users.

I have seen this on other hobby forums and it seems that once all the great contributors to the forum see enough of this type of posting, they leave, and their departure leaves a huge void in the enjoyment of the forum and the hobby for everyone else.

Bruce

 Rich:

I certainly understand you and the people employed by your firm need to make a living.  Everyone is in the same position (for the most part).  I think where it doesn't sit right, at least not with me, is that then in your original post that started this discussion, you referred to the "OGR family."  Let's just be frank and honest:  it isn't a "family", it's a business.  I don't profit off family members -- it's a fundamentally different relationship and words do matter.  Again, nothing wrong with OGR making a living but I think if you are more candid about the economics and the reality, and stop using what are, with all respect, disingenuous terms people will be less disappointed and more realistic when they see their complaints about a major forum sponsor or manufacturer deleted. 

Again, it's your home and your rules but there are consequences to the lines that you chose to draw.  I don't say this to be argumentative, but you made the original post, I would assume, because you are concerned and want to get feedback that doesn't simply just reflect the "everything is great" perspective.  Thank you for opening this discussion.

THANK YOU!

Not to be facetious, but what might sense is a deleted thread forum.  The thread gets frozen and moved to this forum with the last post stating why it's being deleted.  After three days, it automatically disappears.

Well, I think this forum is moderated just about right.  It is an excellent forum and I appreciate the work done by the moderator/s.   We all have the problem of being able to type faster than we can think!  I learned the hard way with emails, be careful what you 'say' and then hit send without thinking!@.  

I can understand people's frustrations about the way things are but self discipline is a wonderful thing.  Just take a deep breath and think twice before hitting "Submit Reply"!! 

Sounds good. Time will tell if it is enforced with everyone........

In full agreement with Derek here.

I obviously won't post a list, but 2 particular members come to mind whose areas of expertise coincide with a named forum or sub-forum here.  Due to the help or information they may provide (though with "mega attitude" in many cases), I also feel they are given a "pass".

As to personal examples, the only one that immediately comes to mind where I thought moderation was overkill was a while back when some members were discussing the lack of an O gauge calendar in the marketplace.  Many thread participants thought such an item would be an immediate sell out and money maker, so were questioning how it could be that no-one wanted to produce one? 

I made a post discussing some history of how organization ABC and magazine XYZ had made previous attempts at such and eventually it became a point where it was not worth their investment to offer such an item anymore.

This was not by any means a promotion of either organization ABC or magazine XYZ, but apparently the mere mention of the associated entities was enough to deep six it.  I believe one of the sets of initials may even be in the filter where it is replaced by "XXX".  (I'm assuming there was no name calling, etc in the thread, but I have no way of knowing)

As to the requirement of email and real names in the profile thing, I'll be one who disappears (at least as a poster) if that ever comes about.   (I don't have a bumper sticker with my full name, address, phone number, email, and birth date on my car either - to me these are nearly synonymous examples - with the exception that far fewer people (or web crawlers (spider-bots) in the case of the forum) have access to see my car's bumper every day than those who have access to this forum)

-Dave

Without regard to how OGR is financed or who is compensated and how much, the Forum is part of a private business and as guests we should make an effort to obey the house rules. 

In spite of the give and take I feel like the Forum is a "family".

Many of the members of this forum have become, if you will, electronic friends.  Some of us have met in person.  When a friend no longer is psoting, we wonder, or worry, if something has happened to them.  Thus while Lee (whom I do not know) is free to stop posting, his electronic friends want to know if something is wrong.  Likewise, there have been some death or illness announcements, which have resulted in outpourings of support.  That is what friends, electronic or otherwise, are for.  I am sure there are members who literally, are physically alone in the world and such support is very meaningful.

Such personal touches are vital to a forum and I oppose barring them.  If someone doesn't like such a posting, he/she is free to pass over the thread

I see no problems with your rules Rich.   Every house has them and this is your house.

With that said I do think that there ought to at least be the opportunity for a bit of two way communication on some of the policies that affect the forum and it's topics and content.

Would the forums' "suggestion box" be the place for that?

And an occasional signon time reminder with the forum rules highlighted (like the recent rant with acknowledgement) might be decent idea... 

AND occasional "band camp" for the pot stirrers who can't be nice to folks or make continuous condescending remarks. 

Thanks a lot for all of your effort Rich... I can't see how you can do RR, 765, print and online magazines... AND flying. 

LOL "Mommy, what did Johnny do?"

Moderate away, it's appreciated by the members who are civil and considerate.

A "GIANT" Thank-You Rich. This is a great forum!! I don't post a lot but I do read something here every day!! Keep up your great work!

I'm glad to see you own it Rich. I understand how it works. Others don't hence my post.

I don't really understand what your rant is really for though. When users sign up they accept a use agreement correct? What is the purpose of reiterating? It sounds like a parent scolding their children. It is in the best interest of OGR to get as many users on this board as possible so they to can be "subject" to the ads. So unless you have a real trouble maker what will really be done about it? Besides, we've all seen people get banned only to come back as different users. You really can't control that.

I find this whole thing quite odd. Since you are generating revenue then it becomes a business for you (or someone at OGR). Moderation is part of the job unless you open it up and advertise it as unmoderated. You won't do that though since as you pointed out you are protecting the advertisers and it puts food on the plate. So unfortunately I think you are stuck with moderation. Please just make sure that there are standards and everyone gets treated fairly. Elliot's post was deleted the other day, but he was spot on IMHO. There have been favorites that were allowed to be insulting and condescending on an almost daily basis without repercussion.

I voted on the side of the subscription model when asked, but I lost. That's fine. I can live with the current model. It is what it is... Probably because I try to be polite and courteous in my posts. But the way I see it, I am paying for this service. Either directly as in my subscription, or indirectly when I purchase from OGR sponsors. There is a big difference between playing in someones' sandbox out of their kindness and having to pay to play in their sandbox. As such, I am a customer of yours and I don't appreciate being scolded like a child when certain other people are left to run amuck.

I'm not saying this to start an argument or because I have a problem with anyone at OGR. This is just how I see it.

The forum software does not provide this feature.