THE WEBMASTER'S RANT

Something to remember...just because you STARTED a thread does not mean you were involved in the DELETION of the thread. Most often it is due to posts further down in the thread that cause the problems.

On a related note...

Dave, I basically agree with what you said. However, I sometimes have to make a hard choice between spending an hour doing micro-surgery on a thread to remove a dozen offensive posts or spending 10 seconds and just deleting the entire thread.Given all the other things going on around here, I often have to go the 10-second deletion route.

I will promise to you and all other members that when we have a troublesome thread, I will try to do a little more "surgery" and less deleting. However, if all of you were abiding by my "GOLDEN RULE" (see the first post) I would never have this problem in the first place. 

Rich,

   IMO this is the best forum on the world wide net, most of the people who participate are decent friendly knowledgeable members.  You have always done a great job running it, for those who do not like how you manage your OGR, they can leave.  Keep up the good work.  You will always have a few loud mouth complainers who make trouble, eliminate them as you have done in the past, and keep the OGR the best forum in the world.  Rich you have the ultimate right to rant, the OGR is your baby.

PCRR/Dave

I think this is a great forum and would hate to see anything happen to it and appreciate the resources that OGR expends on it. Once you have a population of any reasonable size, you'll never get everyone to follow all the rules all the time. If OGR wants to make any changes, I would suggest moderating posts only and not deleting whole threads, when applicable, and anytime anything is deleted to leave up a notice that it was moderated and why.

Rich and the OGR gang....you do a fantastic job and have my support 100%

Peter

Dear Sir:

I concur it is your website and your prerogative to set the rules.  I just wish you would enforce all the rules, especially the one limiting dealers.  I have written twice about the few people who seem to be using this site only to sell items.  They are repeatedly on the OGF hawking trains/components/parts.

Regards,

Syd Dann

I think my biggest question is the reasoning over some of the post deletion. I have no issues with posts that get dirty and become fights amongst the members being deleted.

I have seen countless post:

1) Someone has a gripe or a bad experience with a seller/vendor, sometimes a forum Sponsor sometimes not and the post gets deleted. I have no idea why if a vendor treats a member poorly, cheats, them, takes money, does a bad repair, whatever the reason that other members should not be made aware of these possible "bad" vendor practices?

2) Someone posts a thread about their bad experience with either Lionel or MTH. Again, a bad repair, a faulty product etc. DELETED. Are Lionel and MTH above fault so that it can't be discussed?

It's things like this that irk me. I have seen it MANY times on this forum and I have no idea why.

Trainguy4014, take a look at this article on Facebook standards/censorship. They certain take issue with your freedom to post. The issue around breast feeding has been quite active lately after Facebook has deleted pictures of this rather "natural" activity.

Rich, I know it can be difficult but we need to assure civility here. Folks have so much to share and I've learned so much but often a snarky comment comes out of the blue and we can loose another valuable contributor.

Scotie

Rich it's your party and I'm fine with it. Great relational website.

I never see the snarky posts. Guess I don't hang around wherever this is happening.

Regards,

Ron H

Scotie,

Facebook does NOT normally remove pictures of mothers breast feeding, it was a specific case and had more to do with a shaming case that was brought up. Facebook actually issued an apology publicly to the mother.

http://www.cnet.com/news/faceb...g-breastfeeding-pic/

I enjoy this site, and try to be a good citizen.

One concern I have about some of the moderating is when an entire thread is deleted due to an off color comment or personal attack. It seems that some folks have learned that they can get a thread deleted by intentionally making an offensive post.

And, as another poster has already noted some individuals seem to go out of their way to be unpleasant towards others. Why they are allowed to remain is a mystery to me.

Something about some people, they'll shoehorn political or religious topics into any conversation they're part of, no matter what the underlying topic is or was. The old adage of never discussing religion or politics is lost on these people. Even a discussion of the merits of a type of couple of wheel profile will immediately devolve into how the current president (or political party the poster doesn't belong to) is responsible for all the evils in the world. Often, it'll prompt someone to start going back through the posts, saying out loud, "Where the heck did that come from"?

Where, indeed?

But a few key points that people always need to think of with a thread here:

• Like any verbal conversation, you will go from one subject to another. It's inevitable. Please, just go with it because it's natural and nobody wants to read, "Stay on topic" posts from anyone but a real forum moderator (and usually, not even then).
• This forum is quite focused on specific topics, and some stuff simply has nowhere to go but is relevant to model trains in some capacity. Again, "This is better discussed over there" posts are gonna be ignored. Just get over it and press on, especially if people are responding to it ...

First, thank you for maintaining the forum.  I am not much of a joiner and find this and endless source of valuable information.  It is in fact your party and I am a guest.  As a guest I expect to be held to that standard.

Second, the analogy of Facebook fails badly.  If you threaten or attack someone in that forum the offended individual can complain and FB can remove your account.  

Third, the fact that the discussion is wandering in this direction proves the point of the original post and the need for moderation.  

I come here for information about my hobby, nothing more, nothing less.  Everything else is just noise.

Hi Rich, I am so glad to see this post.  It hopefully will open the door to you, of some badly need feedback.  To begin with I appreciate this forum very much.  It has taken me to greater heights in my modeling.  I have made wonderful friends here and I have enjoyed the time I spend interfacing on the forum posts.

That being said, in my opinion, the single most uncomfortable part of this forum is the deletion issue.  It is not that a post was deleted it is that there is no information to inform the members of why it was deleted.  I have gone back to posts which I was interested in and see the "ERROR POST DELETED."  I am not suggesting that OGR needs to rationalize their actions.  It simply means that a one or two word input would help people understand what happened.

My suggestion is that after the words ERROR POST DELETED.  You follow it with one of the following short statements.

1.  Unrelated to subject

2.  Vulgar

3.  Argumentative

4.  Disrespectful to person, place or thing.

It has been stated here that "heavy handed moderation" keeps people away.  I  think the real issue is a question of why.  Providing the minimum information helps to relieve the unknown in your very difficult task.

What I find most enjoyable about this forum is that it’s a friendly place.  That’s not something you see at some other on-line forums that seem to go un-moderated.  I have been disappointed at times to see backbiting and arguments by a few OGR forum members so I was glad to see those replies deleted.

Thanks to Rich and other OGR staff for all of your efforts to maintain such a great forum.  It has become an integral part of the hobby for me and many others.  Following a few common sense rules is a very small price to pay, for what we get in return from this place.  

Keep up the great work!

Very well said Rich! 

I agree Rich!!

For better or worse, I'm a "play by the rules" guy. Hence, OGR's forum, OGR's rules.

I support Rich and the OGR staff 100 percent on the way the forum is operated and maintained. 

Over moderation? I don't think so.

Perfectly said, perfectly clear. I am in full agreement with every word.

Glad you wrote about it, hopefully all will appreciate your words and allow this forum to be the best open forum on the Internet.

Bob

There are a few members who feel the need to interject their PERCEIVED superiority with harsh and demeaning commentary. Over and over, I have seen members ask for opinions and constructive criticism, and receive such. This is how it should be. Those who regularly post condescending remarks should be warned, and then removed. This forum is too valuable to so many to be blackened by a few. Rich, I stand behind you.

Don 

Rich and Co. , Thanks for this forum and you DO have the right to monitor it the way you wish!

Great forum   NUF SAID

Brent

Agree with Rich. This forum is an invaluable source of information and help for 0-gauge hobbyists. And the rules are certainly not oppressive and are necessary for everyone to enjoy this forum without fear of harassment or otherwise unruly comments.

Every single one of my posts gets moderated!  Not by the OGR staff, but by myself. I try to think and write carefully about what I am posting, and try to stick to the pertinent details.  Frequently things get deleted - before I hit the submit button. And I'm almost never upset with the moderator when that happens.

I have no problem with any of Rich's points.  However, while acknowledging the time consuming nature of moderation, I also vote for moderation of posts as opposed to entire threads.

Jim

I have been on this forum for a long time. It has changed drastically over the years. Some for the better, but much for the worse. You cannot of course control what people do or say on public forums other than moderate them or ban them. So unless you pull the plug there aren't really any other options.

I would like to point out something that has bugged me a bit. This forum is not being provided to the public out of the generosity of OGR's heart. We are subject to advertisements and the protection that OGR provides those advertisers. Advertisement is a revenue stream for OGR. In web advertising you either go ad based or subscription based. So just because there are no subscriptions doesn't mean that we (the users) aren't generating revenue. If we weren't here then advertisers wouldn't pay. I like the forum enough to continue to participate, but I've heard about enough of how this forum is provided as a service to the community. It is mutually beneficial at best. I can (and do) live with that. The part I don't like is that posts about non-advertising companies often get removed to protect the paying competitors. Unless someone is attacking another person or company or violating the use agreement the posts should be allowed to stay. And in my opinion there seems to be a double standard where some users are granted a lot more leeway in what they say and how they behave than others. Moderation doesn't seem very even keeled to me.

That's my 2 cents.

Sincerely Rich i think you do a great job of keeping everybody in CHECK!

I have only seen a few people that don't know how to say anything nice.My father ALWAYS SAID IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY THEN DON'T SAY ANYTHING!

And my dad was correct.

That's why i think these forums are run great with great members and always willing to help anyone about anything to do with TRAINS.

GREAT PLACE LETS ENJOYS OUR HOBBY!

Alan

I agree with you Rich 100% and Thank You!!

I used to be an OFFENDER...Rich sent me a nice email telling me my posts were a little too aggressive,  SOOO, I reread every post I make NOW, and often hit the DELETE on myself. And now Rich and me are square I think!  He just won't change my 1968 SAT Scores so I can be a Rocket Scientist!!!

I feel the moderation (in terms of deleting total threads) have become very heavy-handed.  I am perfectly fine with that as this is not owned by me.  It does make me hesitant to express my feelings.  I write many post responses that I never hit "submit" on or immediately delete because I feel like they will just kill the thread, even if they are within all the stated rules of the forum.

Some examples:

1.  All those "weaver going out of business" threads that were deleted.

2.  The "what happened to lee" threads a few days back - he was an amazing contributor and I can't understand why his reason for departure is "expunged from the history books" like Russian schoolbook propaganda.

But I like this forum and if I need to just post threads about how I converted MTH 3-rail trucks to 2-rail, then so be it.  Like this

give a person one strike then kick them off the second time

When a post is deleted, I hope the reason is forwarded to poster(s) on why? Some never realize what they have written to cause this. Helps a long way.

Thank you for having this forum.  I have met a lot of GUYZ from this forum at YORK.  I also have learned a lot in the replacement of parts and in trouble shooting problems that arise with model trains.  This is for the most part a truly fantastic forum.  On the cusp of new technology, in using and testing new products.  I and many have gotten many ideas to enhance our layouts. Keep on doing what you have to do to police this forum.

 "Benevolent Dictatorship" <-- I luv this!!

The thread I saw go south yesterday happened when the discussion went from talking about the trains themselves, and turned to people talking about people. 

As long as the discussion sticks to the trains then it should go well. Oftentimes things go badly when people take a critique of models and transfer that critique to themselves.

If someone opens a thread and draws a comparison between the prototype and a model then I think the critique of the model should be allowed. If someone opens a thread and gives the opinion that the model is great for reasons a,b, or c, then others should be able to give the opinion that the model has flaws with x,y, or z.

In a different scenerio, if someone is simply posting a photo of their toy or model to show off then the critique really isn't warranted in my opinion.

We all gather here because of our mutual love of trains. Railroading has been my entertainment, my refuge from the slings and arrows of life and just a whole lot of fun and esthetic enjoyment......since I was about 4 years old!  I have learned much and have truly enjoyed seeing others peoples' work, enjoyed reading of railroading experiences and gaining exposure to good technical thinking. All on this forum!

        Hopefully I have offended very few folks. Heck, hopefully none. One small rule I follow is never start a post or reply with "You........".  Chances are good if one does so, one is about to offend someone. I try to keep all comments in a neutral 3rd party voice. ("it is said....", "People say.....", etc.)    

Amen

Rich,  

Thanks for all that you do.   As most have already highlighted,  the OGR forum provides an expansive resource to all of us who use it.   Although I have been involved with this hobby for almost 45 years, I still learn great new tips and tricks regularly on the forum.   One thing I always liked about model railroading was the overwhelming number of really sincere, and generous people involved in this hobby, but there's always a rare exception. 

Unfortunately,  "moderation" is absolutely required on this forum.  Although it rarely happens, I am shocked when some "wild card" goes off in a disrespectful manner. Basic respect, and a healthy sense of humility ought to prevent that from happening, but !!!!

Thanks again, I am a long term very pleased member of the forum.  

I've only been here for a few years, but I find the forum a very good resource; I have and do moderate several hobby-related forums, and can attest that moderation is a task, not something to do for fun.  The enjoyment you have for the topic at hand is what drives you to contribute your time and energy.

Last week I posted in a thread that was discussing eBay; as a 15-year-tenured eBay buyer and seller with 100% positive feedback and thousands of transactions, I posted some guidance to assist people in making more informed decisions when purchasing at online auction.  When I came back later, I found that the thread was missing, and I assume, deleted.  Sad to see my efforts to help flushed away, but no biggie, that would be near the bottom of my worries list on any day.

Later I was informed that there is some kind of dislike for eBay here--no links to auctions, threads disappearing, etc...  But as we speak, there are currently over 102,000 active auctions in the O gauge category on eBay.  Nowhere else in the world is there a selection of O gauge trains like what you'll find there, used and new.  It's an integral part of our hobby, and to pretend it doesn't exist seems strange--I wish that policy could be revisited.  Many hobby forums have dedicated subforums just for posting and discussing eBay auctions.

Rich,

  I agree wholeheartedly.  I left for awhile because of the negativity and comments of the few.  I've come back in the last few months and it started to get to me again.  Then i noticed the "block this member" option.  I've been using it frequently, too frequently as of late.  I've learned an amazing amount since I found this forum and I appreciate the help I have received.  Thank you for what you do, I let the few bother me and left, but I was missing the many good and helpful folks here, so I'm back is see "you've blocked this member" here and there and I can live with that.  I'm just glad there is a resource like this and hope it continues to be a source of knowledge, ideas and fun.  That's why I play with trains.  I get enough of the other the rest of the day, I don't need it involving my relaxation and hobby.

Kevin