Thinking of going 100% conventional

YES!!!

While I do have a computer....it's a desk top so I have to sit at it....can't use it driving down the road as I see all the time.

I have no GPS....no anti-tech as much as I'd rather buy trains!

I have a 2005 Motorola Razor and two more I have been given.....no plans on a 'smart' phone.....it makes phone calls.....and if not for family pressure I'd not have it.

I do have DISH TV as I live next to a US GOvmt 'Dark Zone' and no dish no anything....gotta watch my Mad Men, Walking Dead.....

But yes.....as low tech as possible today.

Well that "supposedly new" set doesn't count. Thats ALL the dealers fault. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater

 

There are a "few" very reputable dealers, sticking with them is "key" especially if you don't have a good/ available LHS.

 

 

Having said that, Williams has not been without problem posts here on the forum.

 

If not for command and sound I'd likely not be in the hobby, or at least I'd probably still be in H.O.

Command control (Lionel-based, in my case) has been almost 100% reliable. I have had

as many conventional locos go weird on me as the CC ones, and not many of either.

I do not know how one can have consistent problems with Lionel's system. I do not

know as much about DCS. I do have a DCS Remote Commander, and -most- of my PS2/3

locos will respond to it, but not all. I seldom use it, and the MTH fleet tends to sit on the shelf. A shame, but, to me, MTH went the wrong way with CC. When an MTH loco begins

to act electronically odd (most are fine), out comes PS-X and in goes ERR. 

 

Conventional F-N-R operation just irritates me. My first time on a CAB-1 years ago really

opened my eyes, and I never looked back. It just feels like you are operating your locos,

not operating your track. And the zoom-zoom is mostly eliminated.

My best 2 engines are my MTH PS2 Premier NYC&HRR 4-4-0s.

Look great run great and can handle anything .

One did develop a noisy smoke unit but that's easy to fix.

Hello guys and gals..........

 

I preeeeefer "old school way" of running the trains that is conventional way !!!!!!!! I just like to put the trains on the track and move the throttle and sit back and relax. I don't need fancy electronic problems in trains.

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

I was just thinking...these kind of discussions never seem to happen to young folks.

Just old folks keep hammering about "doing things the old way", "if it's good enough for my grandfather, it's good enough for me", "I'm not missing a thing".

Really?

Chipset,

all of my electric trains are conventional.

But ya' know, it's my mechanical/wind up trains that get the most track time!

They always work & I get to enjoy the experience of playing with some that are close to 100 years old.  Also, I can set up track darn near anywhere & never have to worry about a power supply.

 

Dave

 

 

Heck, I have some wooden trains that I made for my three sons.  They don't even need track.  Just hook them together, put your hand on them, and push them along.  Can't get any easier than that.    

I naturally started out in conventional, but in 2004 or so switched to DCS.  I would have no idea on how to wire my layout now as conventional.  Love the simplicity of command wiring and yes sometimes things don't work with a flip of a switch, but when I get something to work that didn't't...never had that golden moment running conventional.

 

Everyone  is different, none better than the other for all, that is what makes this the best hobby. 

I sometimes use the Cab1 to control conventional engines but most of the time its the ZW that gets the glory. 

I paid attention to what I ran when and found I still liked to use TMCC sometimes. 

 

Nathan

 

You are aware that with the DCS Remote Commander, unlike the full-blown DCS system, that you're limited to be able to run with just one single engine address, which is the factory default of (1), and each PS2/PS3 engine in order to run with the Remote Commander all need to be at the factory default address right?  And you also can't do factory default commands with it either.

 

There's a HUGE difference in functionality and flexibility between the Remote Commander and the full DCS system.  The Remote Commander is fine if you only have a couple of MTH engines, but if you have several & also want to run multiple engines at the same time and do Lashups, do feature resets, etc. then the full system is the way to go.

Go for it, although I have a sneaking suspicion you won't go 100% conventional.  Especially if you have the control systems already in place.  You'll be back.  I bet you never actually leave.  Enjoy your next train run.

I am actually thinking of building a 2nd layout in another room....oh boy....I have a bunch of Williams trains and I can run conventional on it, and all my Lionel TMCC and Legacy F3s, and SD40s.

I will just isolate the conventional loop(s) from the command and control loops.

My existing layout cannot be added to due to size constraints.

 

Not too sure why you need to isolate a loop for conventional operation; you can operate traditional equipment even if a command signal is present since the conventional engines have no way to detect it so it's just ignored.  Only have to be concerned with varying the track voltage for conventional operations.

I will stick with conventional, after all, the engineers sit there with a throttle to move. I let it run and step way to watch from another spot. Plus, I love to tinker and work on the engines andcas.

I'm lost.  You are thinking of building another layout to run conventional, TMCC and Legacy engines on...

 

Hi chipset,  I hope it works out for you.  I share some of your thoughts about having a simpler layout. I can run three trains on independent tracks using legacy but it's a hassle to do that versus running conventional, so I run two trains on the inner loops using conventional and the outer loop with 54 inch curves using legacy.

Also, regarding garage door openers,  I remember the one my dad had.  I had turned 10, and my pop says to me "David, I thinK you are big and strong enough now to go and open the door"..that thing weight a ton!!

Chipset, a second layout is a great idea. I built a second layout to run my postwar and marx engines. It has evolved into six loops. I have all my operating accessories on it and run strictly conventional. Just turn it on and run trains.  My other layout has TMCC/DCS but lately I'm spending more time running conventional.

 

Bob

I understand the frustration with the new stuff being defective out of the box. I also find the comments of buying on certain websites or other places as being bad. Well, I bought direct from Lionel on the well known auction site for something that is new and at a nice price. Please remember this was direct from Lionel and ......

 

Yup, defective. I have had to pay return shipping and it has been there almost a month now and I have heard nothing as yet to what is going on.

 

So, according to the group speak on this thread I must have bought from a shady dealer. Hmmm....with all of the defects I have gotten in the past 2 years you all might have something here.

 

I have to agree with the original poster that going forward my purchases will be little if anything with an adverse opinion on command items because of all of the shady and questionable dealers.

 

Right now a 2333AA et pulling an all postwar consist runs on the elevated loop....using my Legacy remote to control track power of course.......

I haven't had 3R trains running since I was ten years old, but my 2-R equipment is all conventional DC power, no DCC.

 

When I buy 3R (something that is in my plan for the future) I'll probably run conventional.

 

Jeff C

C W Burfle,

 

    No not that you can not use them. It would be that you choose not to use them.

 

    Just being silly.

 

JohnB

Me as well, with no proper service centre here the post to send items back is just too great.

Not much luck with BCR`s either frying the charging boards.

So lately have been running mainly conventional and branched out into On30, O9 and Gn15.

But if a good deal comes up I still buy & keep the fingers firmly crossed.

James

Obviously this forum is a tremendous resource for knowledge and the people all seem very nice.  That being said, there are too many excuses made for shoddy quality from the major manufacturers because many of the big whigs on this forum are friendly with the people from the firms, so they lose perspective, or otherwise due to business / commercial interests cannot rock the boat.  Either of those rationales is perfectly understandable -- we're all human -- but if it were me rather than continue to defend what is apparently a pretty significant issue I would just keep quiet. 

 

As you your point, I agree and find it not credible that the dealer has an impact on quality.  I don't buy stuff on Ebay generally (other than replacement parts where what you see is what you get) and I rarely buy from private parties (and I have been burned, here and elsewhere when I have).  So my defective purchases apparently came from the same shady dealers that you use, many of whom are forum sponsors here too.  Shame on us.

 

After a real train-related fiasco last Christmas morning dealing with defective trains, this year the dealers who have my pre-orders for the kids are under instructions to test the stuff before it ships.  Trust but verify.  Otherwise any more issues and I will completely stop purchasing the new items and run the postwar stuff for the boys.  Shame, because the new features are great and I say that as someone who has had almost zero problems with my original TMCC equipment.  The real issues are in the last few years, and are not related to technology per se, but rather simply put poor assembly / manufacturing quality techniques. 

 

But if everyone is willing to take it, and instead of finding it ludicrous that expensive specialty items have a high failure rate, lauds the service of defective products ("Gee, Lionel got my defective locomotive back to me in two weeks so I shipped them cookies"), that's where you will be because that's where you are setting the bar.  That's not to say after sale service isn't important, it is.  But cut through the fluff and the goal of that process should be to cut down on the incoming problems, not make people feel better when you sell them a questionable item.

 

It is what it is.  Luckily, it's just a hobby and these are just toys so it is not a serious issue, just an annoyance.  But then you are back to the reality that if hobbies are annoying, why pursue them? 

 

Take care and good luck.

This thread is quite interesting although I think everyone realizes it says a lot more about the people posting here (including me) than about the model railroad industry.

 

 Lucky for me, I almost never run into those many "shady and questionable dealers" so I can't claim my purchases are in any way influenced by those concerns.  I also have had so few problems with products not working - no matter whose they are - that I don't consider the prospect of failure or the costs/hassle of returning an item for repair at all when I purchase.  

 

However, I run conventional only, for two reasons, which I can't distinguish as to importance: either would probably be all the reason I need:

- Simplicity: no programming, no power bricks and this and that modules, no worrying about ground planes and which loco is which address.  It's the way I ran toy trains 60 years ago.  It will. remain that to my grave.

- Engineering principles: 45 years in the electric power industry taught me many things, but among them a rule I now teach all the young engineers who work for me: never use the conductors that are moving the power to also transmit the digitial or analog signals controlling that power.  It is an appealing idea because it makes a convenient system and lowers cost.  It works almost all the time.  The problem is that when it doesn't work its nasty to diagnose and it will always be at a time when you really really need it to work.  

 

When I got back into O-gauge ten years ago and saw TMCC, DCS, and Legacy, I went "Oh no!" and never touched them.  No regrets now, although half my locos are Legacy: love the cruise, slow speed control, etc., that all works in conventional.  Good stuff.

 

I'm not calling anybody's baby ugly.  I have several friends who love DCS and Legacy and even more, love to work on it, etc.  They  view the electrical engineering work it creates as fun and seem to look at the occasional problems it creates as fun challenges to work on.  More power to them (literally).  I get too much of that at work, so it doesn't float my boat when I get home.  But I'm glad they have what they like.

 

There is something in this hobby for everyone - except those shady and questionable dealers.   

Let me preface this post with some comments:  First, while my offspring are computer people having owned and used cell phones, tablets, lap tops, and desk tops as well as other gadgets, including the latest i-phones, GPS, etc., I am not.  I still use a cheap flip phone which serves my purposes quite well without carrying around a large item that has the capability of doing more things than I really care about.  Both of our sons utilize computers extensively in their employment (in fact, one is a software engineer), and I have never discouraged them from computers even though I have not been a part of that aspect of their lives.  In the world of trains, I am also a traditionalist for the simple reason that I already owned those trains for many years and still want to run them.  There is an emotional or nostalgic component with them that is difficult for an old-timer to shed. Younger people who had never played with such trains in their own youth can never appreciate that reaction.  There is no question that the newer stuff and digital controls are remarkable and fun to witness.  I, however, don't get the same response holding them in my hand with the same degree of fondness.  They are somewhat "out there" with strange controls and foreign ways of operating that I can never understand nor appreciate that well.  When they malfunction, I cannot discern why or logically accept such breakdowns as an accepted recurring thing in the industry.  That frustrates me psychologically (it's the same as getting your computer started again by re-plugging in certain components--it's almost like the machine is organic!)  I know there is reason for any form of madness and I should simply learn to live with this phenomenon, but old habits and thinking die hard, I suppose.  I think most people who opt for conventional do so for emotional or psychological reasons that others who are not so inclined can never understand.  For what other reason would one turn away from technologically enhanced trains that, at least logically on paper if not actually, offer more?  If you have a love relationship with old trains or find less frustration with them in their operation, go conventional.  For the best of both worlds, do both....then you'll have to see a psychiatrist because of your "identity problem."

If there is not a local building to throw a fit in, I don't buy... Unless I can afford to lose the all money. Ive had poor luck in the mail order days, and I see the internet as a new electric version, and by its self(-credit card safety nets), is not as legally "safe" as mail order was either. At least the Postmasters had actual charges available as a deterrent, to help curb the mail order "idjits".    

Oh.. those old brass Williams do not run as well as the newer stuff. Night and day difference.

I will agree that my new MTH 2-10-4 PRR PS3 loco is SMOOTH..........

But my Williams and 3rd Rail brass locos run well.

The extra noise  from hollow brass structures turn many off that are used to die cast modern stuff. But I will not give up my brass locos.

quote:

No not that you can not use them. It would be that you choose not to use them.

 

I see.

Well, I choose to use my computer, a smart phone, GPS, and any number of other electronic devices that provide me with something I want or need.

I choose not to play with electronically controlled trains. They don't provide anything I want or need.

 

So basically, as long as those conventional engines are on a blocked section of track when I run command and control, they wont move.

However, when I run conventional engines the c&c engines will ignore the transformer voltage?

 

C.W.

 

    Unless you are running Brio trains all of them are electronically controlled. The question is do you control them through the transformer or use a hand held remote. Granted if the engine does not have TMCC, Legacy, PCS etc. you have to use the transformer to control the engine.

    I used to feel similar when I had a small home layout I thought it is just as good to use my transformer to run CC engines but then my LHS owner Phil Krop said to give CC a try. So I did purchase TMCC which was simple to wire up (one wire connection). Wow what a difference just being able to uncouple the engine anywhere on the layout is a big plus. Also going from one main line to another as well as controlling two engines at once. Then we got Legacy at the club I belong to (Black Diamond Society of Model Engineers Bethlehem Pa). That was even better on a big layout. Walking around seeing everything up close.....feel the vibrations when applying the brakes. Sorry I will never give up command control.

    If you have not give it a try. If you are near to Bethlehem Pa stop at the club on a Tuesday night and I will let you run some engines.

    But if you stick with conventional have fun........but you don't know what you are missing.

 

JohnB

   

 

quote:

    Unless you are running Brio trains all of them are electronically controlled.

So there is no difference between electric and electronic?

Not according to the dictionary.

I guess one could stretch the point, and say that whistle/ horn setups are electronic because there is a rectifier involved.

Postwar Lionel did make the electronic set, which I do find to be an interesting oddity.

 

quote:

 If you have not give it a try. If you are near to Bethlehem Pa stop at the club on a Tuesday night and I will let you run some engines.

 

I guess that folks who like the Modern era electronic stuff commonly think that those of us who don't are ignorant of what they do. Can't speak for others. I am familiar with what they do. They are very nice, but not something I am interested in owning.

Thanks anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are those of us out here that grew up with "trains that did less" when all this command, sound and other sparky stuff was nothing but a science-fiction model railroad dream.  Now those dreams are reality and it's not going away

 

And I've tried it: TMCC, Legacy, DCS, DCC. 

 

It's OK, but it's not the be all-end all of model railroading. 

 

In my opinion I'm not missing anything.  My enjoyment with model railroading is not diminished when I run conventional.

 

About the thing I like best with the various command systems is the lights stay on when the train is stopped.

 

Otherwise, nothing beats a good looking locomotive or train that runs well no matter how it's controlled.  That's the cake.  Everything else is just frosting. 

 

And I choose which technologies to accept in my life and which not to.

 

Rusty

I find this post very perceptive...and causes me to reflect on why I keep buying expensive products which have had about a 33% failure rate right out of the box.

I have realized that I do find the challenge of finding out what is in the broken "black box" interesting and consuming. That's after I get over my tantrum about another broken new item.

I also have a kind feeling about the dealers who really cannot test every item, have it remain new and unopened and unrun which seems to add something to it's value, and still make a profit on what I guess is a slim margin.

I think I also sympathize with Lionel and what they must have to deal with having product manufactured in China to save costs, and then spending much those savings with a relatively expensive repair department here in the USA. And it is a good service, I think we all agree on that...even if some repairs fall thru the cracks. After all, the geniuses are all here on the forum leaving less for the service department .

I have not encountered any shady dealers here or on the bay that I can document. I have found some uneducated dealers, product wise on the bay. That's to be expected and it's my job to do the research and sort them out. While that can be considered shady I prefer to just take it for what it is and move on.

And Lee, I never would have guessed that you avoid TMCC and DCS to avoid a bus driver's holiday. BTW, your comment about running significant rf on power lines makes me think about how that can result in under sizing the capacity of the conductors.

  

Rusty Trague commented on how conventional results in the lights going off when the train is sitting. Lionel handled the sound with a battery backup, perhaps that could be done for the lights now that we have the LEDs.

The key is not how many products go bad...they will sometimes right out of the box.

The key is where you buy them from.

Trainworld has been helping me with a new purchase issue, they have been patient and very understanding, even when I was not.

Ken Jr the owner called me 3 times to make sure everything was to my satisfaction and/or to help out.

 You cant beat that!

My current layout is 100% conventional, but as 6 of my powered 12 engines (3rd Rail, Atlas, Weaver, and K-Line) have TMCC, and there are a couple of Legacy diesels I would like to have, I plan on adding Legacy to the new layout.  I will still power my layout with a pair of MRC Duals.

 

I want to add Legacy primarily for the ease of running different powered engines together. Any other Legacy or TMCC functions would be icing on the cake.

 

I'm figuring if I have the command features, why not have them available to use?

 

Jim

 

Since command equipped engines operate better at higher voltages (between 14-18v in my experience) Your best bet is to use a dedicated transformer for that loop (can still tap the command signal to that loop).  If you use DCS exclusively or DCS with TMCC/Legacy daisy-chained together with everything going through the TIU, tie the track power from that block to one of the variable channels on the TIU.  

 

If running a TMCC/Legacy-exclusive environment, then you use TPCs or the newer Powermasters to vary the voltage.

Thanks John,

Currently I have a Legacy 990, 2 MTH TIUs and one hand held, as well as 3 MTH Z-1000 bricks, and a Z-1000 transformer.

The most fancy I ever got was hooking up DCS and Legacy to the same loop, using the Legacy remote and the MTH DCS Remote.

But I always kept conventional on a seperate loop.

John,

 

Why would you need to use TPCs or the newer Powemasters to vary the voltage?  Couldn't you just up the voltage output on an older transformer that one might already have?

 

When I incorporate Legacy on my new layout, I was hoping to still use my MRC Duals.  Figuring on just upping the power output to 18v to run TMCC stuff.  Of course, I would need to remember to turn down the power to run conventional engines, otherwise they would take off like rockets!

 

Jim