Well, regardless of the lack of enthusiasm expressed here by some, presumably Lionel has access to market data that indicates it's financially worthwhile for them to make all these Vision GG1s a major part of this catalog, i.e., there's a lot of demand for them out there. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what that data is?! 
@breezinup posted:Well, regardless of the lack of enthusiasm expressed here by some, presumably Lionel has access to market data that indicates it's financially worthwhile for them to make all these Vision GG1s a major part of this catalog, i.e., there's a lot of demand for them out there. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what that data is?!
You got it. I'm just a sample of one, hard to say what motivates them to offer the stuff they do each year.
Nope.
I own a JLC 5 striper in perfect physical and operational condition. And, why for all that money endure worries about Lionel QC and how a new one might show up?
Bob
That data isn't that difficult to decipher. The tooling has already been done for this model and likely already amortized from the earlier runs. It doesn't take as many units to turn a profit at this point but there is still a minimum order quantity from the factory. The variety of paint schemes across three variations of basic tooling likely get the MOQ to the minimum to move the project forward. With the BTO model there is a lot less risk too that Lionel learned after the blowout sales on the Silver G when it was offered in the JLC series.
@GG1 4877 posted:Reposts from many former threads, but do I REALLY need another GG1? Probably, but mainly looking for 2 rail O ones going forward. This doesn't include my Vision Line DGLE 4877, Sunset 4859, Weaver PC 4904, or Weaver Amtrak ones. I have a few more N ones too.
I just noticed the EF-4, is it the Williams version?
@GG1 4877 posted:With the BTO model there is a lot less risk too that Lionel learned after the blowout sales on the Silver G when it was offered in the JLC series.
Since the JLC silver GG1 had 100% rotten sideframes, perhaps Lionel knew in advance and wanted to unload them all! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:No, the sideframes are different on the Vision Line GG1's, and do not fit the JLC models.
Good to know, thank you. While I am aware that the JLC versions can be bought for $700 or even less, I don't know how easy it is to get new truck frames for them, so I feel there's still that risk you take.
@carnerd3000 posted:Good to know, thank you. While I am aware that the JLC versions can be bought for $700 or even less, I don't know how easy it is to get new truck frames for them, so I feel there's still that risk you take.
Right now there is no source for the sideframes that I know of. Henning's Trains had a guy that was molding replacements, but he's gone now. If I can get a good 3D scan of a sideframe, I'm thinking of printing them with one of the carbon infused filaments for strength. The trick is getting a good enough 3D model.
I'm thinking that maybe for ease of printing, not to mention the print quality, it might make sense to print them in pieces. Print the actual visible sideframes separately in two parts, and the center section as a separate piece, then assemble them.
Just posted today on METCA's website.
METCA Lionel GG1 Raymond Loewy S1 Scheme:
Attachments
Images (1)
Thanks for the heads up! Is there a place on the web where we can read more about the proposed paint scheme?
That METCA looks like the Old Rivets paint scheme? Via the catalog picture, it is very hard to discern Old Rivets, and there's no description of it in the catalog, or did I miss it? I would've emphasized that engine in the catalog pictures. The rivet detail is always neat on diecast engines, case in point are MTH's BiPolars with rivet detail vs. Lionel's Bipolars which model the 1950s streamlined mods. I have to wonder if Lionel's staff are train enthusiasts or just graphic artists, regardless they need to infuse more prototype history IMO. I did read the note about improved gear boxes in the GG1s...I don't know what specific improvements that entails.
Took the word rights out my mouth Norman.
First time I've ever heard about a paint scheme like this. I definitely see the S-1 influence. The tuscan roof though.......
Unrelated, if Lionel or MTH ever does the T-1 again, a T-1 in the Fleet of Modernism style or with Futura font would be intriguing.
Still my favorite 4800 paint scheme.
Attachments
Images (1)
Jonathan, that scheme, but with the welded finish is my personal favorite. The feathered version isn't too far behind.
Honestly, something about the Futura font just makes it better compared to the serif font.
Well, this is interesting. METCA's GG1, #4939 wasn't even a real engine. The last production GG1 was #4938. built in 43' out of Altoona. There was an Amtrak #4939, but its original number was #4927, built in 42'.
If hypothetically speaking, this was a real locomotive, it would've likely been built in 43', after the PRR switched away from using Futura as a font. It probably would've gotten something similar to the T-1 prototype's scheme if were following this "painted for a train" idea. The Trailblazer and General trains that were using the FOM equipment at the time, were updated as the came into the shops with the serif font. FOM was discarded I believe (at least based of my PRR paint schemes book) sometime during 48', for the simpler Tuscan scheme.
All in good fun though! But...... if this can come through the custom line, can #4800 with the 5-strip? 
@Paul Kallus posted:That METCA looks like the Old Rivets paint scheme? Via the catalog picture, it is very hard to discern Old Rivets, and there's no description of it in the catalog, or did I miss it? I would've emphasized that engine in the catalog pictures. The rivet detail makes it so much neater-looking. I have to wonder if Lionel's staff are train enthusiasts or just graphic artists. I did read the note about improved gear boxes in the GG1s...I don't know what specific improvements that entails.
I can say based on my affiliations in the industry that Lionel Staff are train enthusiasts. They do good quality research. The key to knowing the difference between "Old Rivets" and the production GG1s is all in the road number. 4800 are all riveted GG1s. The original road number for Old Rivets was "4899" when produced into what is referred to as the "web stripe" scheme in 1934, but it got renumbered to 4800 in that same paint scheme when the decision was made to produce GG1s over the R1. "Old Rivets" wore number 4800 from late 1934 to this day.
What makes it difficult is that many model manufacturers have produced 4800 in the smooth sided production version of the GG1. I'm as guilty as anyone into buying into this as I have a few HO 4800's and an O Conrail 4800 that is smooth sided, but not at all prototypical.
Which of these (if any) would be a prototypical match for the GGD 1948 Broadway Limited cars? Bear in mind there's also a DGLE 5-Stripe (#4828) that comes with the GG1 Vision Freight Set.
@BlueFeather posted:Which of these (if any) would be a prototypical match for the GGD 1948 Broadway Limited cars? Bear in mind there's also a DGLE 5-Stripe (#4828) that comes with the GG1 Vision Freight Set.
The one in that set is probably the most prototypical match. The GG1's didn't go Tuscan until 52', and the big stripe didn't appear until 55'.
Now, if you want to really dive into semantics, which direction would your Broadway Limited be going? Apparently the GG1's rival prototype locomotive, the R-1 (#4899, later #4999) handled the westbound Broadway Limited for most of its service life.
More information on Old Rivets. The more I read about its fascinating history the more I want one. Also fwiw, the GG1 at the Harrisburg Train station is not Old Rivets (I had seen it years ago when I took the R5 train to Harrisburg but couldn't remember if it was Old Rivets. Old Rivets is on display at Strasburg which I totally forgot about.
Pennsylvania Railroad 4800 Locomotive (“Old Rivets”) - Strasburg PA - Living New Deal
Nope, not into electric locomotives. Mostly prefer steamers, and first gen diesels
No, still have my JLC 4866 that I had to buy new side frames from Henning's. Thank goodness they made them.
@Paul Kallus posted:Old Rivets is on display at Strasburg which I totally forgot about.
Pennsylvania Railroad 4800 Locomotive (“Old Rivets”) - Strasburg PA - Living New Deal
Yes, it is on display but unfortunately will probably wash away into the ground after a hard rain someday. It's in very sad shape, rusting away. Regarding Lionel's anticipated release of new versions, they are certainly beautiful (do I want one, or many--yes!) but too much of a stretch for me, pricewise. Now, if only a scale LC plus 2.0 version was released with correct sounds...oh man, that would be a winner!
@GG1 4877 posted:I can say based on my affiliations in the industry that Lionel Staff are train enthusiasts. They do good quality research. The key to knowing the difference between "Old Rivets" and the production GG1s is all in the road number. 4800 are all riveted GG1s. The original road number for Old Rivets was "4899" when produced into what is referred to as the "web stripe" scheme in 1934, but it got renumbered to 4800 in that same paint scheme when the decision was made to produce GG1s over the R1. "Old Rivets" wore number 4800 from late 1934 to this day.
What makes it difficult is that many model manufacturers have produced 4800 in the smooth sided production version of the GG1. I'm as guilty as anyone into buying into this as I have a few HO 4800's and an O Conrail 4800 that is smooth sided, but not at all prototypical.
Good info., Jonathan, and that's sad to hear Tuscan Jim. Given its history, the museum should take measures to preserve it.
If I am keeping track correctly, is the METCA Raymond Loewry GG1 (hard to see road # on the picture, am guessing 4939?) going to have the rivet detail? This is becoming hard to figure out as the descriptions on METCA and Lionel's catalog are scarce in detail IMO.
@ThatGuy posted:I think the price is just out of sight. I have a few nice scale Williams that I converted over to TMCC. More that enough and for a lot less money.
yes the price is outtasight. At least you can get it for less at Charles Ro, $1420.
I wanted a riveted. I'm disappointed they picked the paint scheme that they did for it. I want the PRR. Was Conrail in operation in the 30s?
As far as operation on a layout with tunnels, that is definitely a concern. Perhaps there is a switch to disable the pantograph operation?
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:As far as operation on a layout with tunnels, that is definitely a concern. Perhaps there is a switch to disable the pantograph operation?
Had the same question. And not just because of tunnels but some Lionel drawbridge (bascule and lift) that I know can't pass pantograph-up electrics.
There is a pantograph lock out switch
Jerryrails posted:The GG-1 is my all time favorite locomotive however I am reluctant to buy a Vision Line version. I had the JLC silver version with the zinc pest issue and I feel strongly the manufacturer should stand behind the product when a serious condition occurs causing it to become inoperable. At the very least the manufacturer should offer replacement parts at a reasonable cost I would buy a set of trucks for my silver GG-1.
Stay tuned, still trying to get a good 3D scan so we can print them.
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:I wanted a riveted. I'm disappointed they picked the paint scheme that they did for it. I want the PRR. Was Conrail in operation in the 30s?
GG1 4800 wore various PRR paint schemes until 1968 when it got painted into PC black. In 1976 under the newly formed Conrail, it got the Bicentennial scheme and in 1977 it was repainted into Conrail Blue and was the only G in this paint until Conrail retired all electrics in 1980. Technically it kept that paint for a few more years after it went to the RR Musuem of PA where it has worn a few different schemes prior to the straight DGLE dip job it has now.
During its PRR years it got every major paint scheme. Aside from the original paint scheme of 1934, some milestone dates include 1935 where it got the first 5 stripe scheme with the wide spaced stripes and is unique to that road number. It then got the standard 5 stripe green with Futura lettering and then later Clarendon lettering after 1943. In 1952 it traded its gold leaf stripes for "Dulux Gold" (i.e. yellow), and in 1960 received the wide single stripe scheme with the 16" Roman lettering. It was during this shopping that the steam generator was removed, the space filled with concrete, and the motor was assigned to permanent freight duty.
Oddly enough, I have heard from some people who operated 4800 that it was less drafty than the production run welded counterparts although I've also heard all GG1s were hot in the summer and cold in the winter.
I am sure Lionel will offer 4800 the road again with some of its PRR schemes.
@tom21pa posted:There is a pantograph lock out switch
Thanks for confirming that Tom!
Can anyone confirm that all of the GG1s numbered #4800 in this run will actually have rivets? I see them in the catalog art but let's just say I'm not willing to assume they'll turn out correctly based on that single data point alone.
Did the #4800 GG1s from the 2016 VL run have rivets?
@BlueFeather posted:Can anyone confirm that all of the GG1s numbered #4800 in this run will actually have rivets? I see them in the catalog art but let's just say I'm not willing to assume they'll turn out correctly based on that single data point alone.
Lionel has tooling for the riveted GG1 from the last run of this locomotive. One can only assume that they will utilize the correct tooling and if they don't to expect them all to be returned.
@GG1 4877 posted:Lionel has tooling for the riveted GG1 from the last run of this locomotive. One can only assume that they will utilize the correct tooling and if they don't to expect them all to be returned.
Thanks Jonathan. I have a 5-Stripe tuscan from the last run but no #4800s.
You may want to check out some of Mr. Muffin's special runs of 4800. I didn't look in detail, but at least on PRR scheme was in the email I got.
Yes, it looks like that brings us up to 4 customs runs so far of the 2024 Volume 2 catalog GG1s.
If you want new models of Old Rivets, these are glory days. Two in the catalog, two below, and others from previous Lionel releases.
1. METCA Lionel GG1 Raymond Loewy S1 Scheme
- As shown above in this thread. Can anyone confirm if this is a fantasy scheme or point to more historical detail on it as an actual proposed livery?
2. Mr. Muffin Lionel 25330CR - VisionLine GG1 Electric Engine "Conrail" #4800 - Bicentennial
- This Bicentennial livery was also done in Lionel’s original release of VL GG1s
3. Mr. Muffin Lionel 25330GY - VisionLine GG1 Electric Engine "Pennsylvania" #4800
- Old Rivets in what appears to be PRR DGLE and a single gold (or buff?) stripe. This might be the 1960s wide single stripe scheme with the 16" Roman lettering that Jonathan describes above.
4. Mr. Muffin Lionel 25330TY - VisionLine GG1 Electric Engine "Pennsylvania" #4916
- PRR Tuscan Red, single stripe
Upwards of 18 new, scale model GG1s to choose from! I might imagine that by the standards of a true GG1 fanatic, this is probably not too many. (Two rail guys are probably just shaking their heads.)
The "S1" scheme is pure fantasy for the PRR purists.
I'm surprised there aren't Warbonnet, Lightning Stripe, Daylight, North Coast Limited, NH McGinnes, or Union Pacific Flag scheme custom runs being offered.
Some playing around in Photoshop I did years ago.
I'd love this Amtrak scheme, but I can make it myself. If I was going for the full fantasy effect, I could swap out the steam generator exhaust with a 48" pancake fan on the roof panel and say the GG1 fleet was upgraded with HEP generators in 1981 and redesignated GG1H 
Attachments
Images (2)
Y’all are jus’ a really classy bunch of characters. I appreciate the avid interest in the prototype GG1s, and the fantasy schemes discussed so far are all in good taste in my opinion. NO ONE has brought up the idea of a 49er Challenger paint scheme for a Vision Line GG1.
I know prices are going to be whatever they are going to be... but this is kinda crazy. The price of 2 of these is more than what I paid for son's car.
That said, even with existing tooling I am surprised Lionel feels there is enough of a market for these. I appreciate the GG-1, but as a primarily Reading RR fan I never really loved it, and I certainly never saw one operate. Honestly as I was flipping thur the catalog for page after page of GG-1 features my brain was screaming "Enough already - Make it stop!". Out of all of these I like the Conrail one the best, but I grew up in the Conrail era around Reading.
I hope whoever purchases one is happy with it.
The reality of today's O scale marketplace is that manufacturers need to commit to a total minimum quantity of each product to be produced. When maybe 10 years ago a manufacturer could commit an entire run to one paint scheme with a few numbers, we now at the point where many paint schemes are required to meet that minimum run.
While I know a lot of people are saying the price seems high, and it is, I don't think it's out of line of where the market truly is for these. I just got a new car for the first time in 17 years in May and while I didn't pay over MSRP for it which is an improvement over a few years ago, it was still an eye opener. We are seeing the same thing in trains. Based on my experience in this industry, no one is getting rich off it either.
