TMCC Upgrade NPR Berkshire 6-8215

I have a hard time, if you are upgrading the engine, why would you not go railsounds- thus compatible with LCRU2 serial data and a decent sound upgrade over Sounds of Static- I mean steam?

Your sounds of steam board- while electronic, cannot decode serial data.

I really would like to see a link to this "I have a circuit diagram from @gunrunnerjohn that utilizes diodes and a relay to produce a DC offset to activate the horn if a direct serial line connection is not doable."

The reason I am saying that is, it then is a circuit that can decode TMCC serial horn data, and then do something, which would imply a microcontroller.

So yes, I'm interested to see where this is going as maybe, I'm just not aware of this circuit you mentioned.

Again, don't take this the wrong way. Either you love the SOS board and want for some reason to keep that, or you just don't want to upgrade to railsounds- hey I get it, that cost (now roughly $129 for ERR) and Lionel pulling a whole bunch of those parts- upgrades are not as cheap and easy as they might have been in the recent past.

I just feel like rigging something to trigger SOS from an LCRU serial data stream, is just not really my cup of tea. But if there is a way- good to get it documented in a topic and that same circuit could have other uses.

No!….SOS ( sound of static ) has no provisions for command activation!….you will most definitely be blowing stuff up if you tried!…..also, as far as I know, you can’t use a whistle/bell activation button in conjunction with TMCC, ….I would think bad things might happen!!….if you desire sounds, I’d suggest finding the plug-n-play sound board that works in concert with your LCRU, …..

Pat

“NPR” is National Public Radio.

The abbreviation for the Nickel Plate Road is “NKP.”

@TomNe. Suggest you contact forum member @PaperTRW to see if he still has a compatible railsounds system that could be used in this upgrade.

Tom,

The old ERR used to make a board call a Sound Converter. It's not available from the new ERR, but you may be able to find one on eBay or another source:

It's design, hardware and software, has also apparently been offered public domain so that you could make your own if you're so inclined.  See this post:

     ERR Sound Converter's design and code were released for public consumption (5/19/18) | gunrunnerjohn

Mike

Thanks for everyone's input.

@Vernon Barry, @harmonyards I found the concept of using the LCRU-2's serial data output to operate a Sound of Steam horn from the instruction manual for the AC/DC Commander on the ERR website.  ERR had two examples on connecting the serrial data line to an SOS board but my board was not listed so thought it can be done if I have the correct connection point on the SOS board.  Here is the link to the ERR instructions for the AC/DC Commander Manual on the ERR website, pages 9 to 11 deal with SOS boards.  Microsoft Word - AcDc-V5-Inst.doc (3rdrail.com) .

As for @gunrunnerjohn circuit diagram here is the 2012 OGR topic that contains the diagram and a discussion of using the LCRU serial data signal to activate a SOS horn.  Just a horn please.... | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com) .

@GregM Thanks, @PaperTRW has been a resource for me in the past with help on TMCC issues.

@Rich Melvin Thanks, typo from typing too fast.

Trying to keep the SOS sound for now with the option to upgrade in the future.

Welcome additional ideas/input.

GRJ's Diagram

@TomNe posted:

Thanks for everyone's input.

@Vernon Barry, @harmonyards I found the concept of using the LCRU-2's serial data output to operate a Sound of Steam horn from the instruction manual for the AC/DC Commander on the ERR website.  ERR had two examples on connecting the serrial data line to an SOS board but my board was not listed so thought it can be done if I have the correct connection point on the SOS board.  Here is the link to the ERR instructions for the AC/DC Commander Manual on the ERR website, pages 9 to 11 deal with SOS boards.  Microsoft Word - AcDc-V5-Inst.doc (3rdrail.com) .

OK, so here is the issue. That document, instructions, and most importantly that feature- specific to pin3, is all about an ERR Commander!!!!

You specifically stated this is an LCRU2- with LIONEL firmware and features native to the LCRU2.

The part that seems to be missed is- that feature- where pin 3 goes high when whistle/horn TMCC command is received is the heart of this function and again, appears SPECIFICALLY on an ERR AC/DC commander or ERR Cruise commander.

"The AC / DC commanderhas a unique control signal available on the standard RailSounds
connector. Typically this pin, #3, is not connected to any signal source. On the AC/DC
Commander, pin 3 generates a logic “high” when the “Horn” button is pressed on the Cab-1"

Now maybe I'm wrong, and I'm not saying this isn't worth testing, but the test is to see the function of an LCRU2 pin3 output in the 4 pin connector of used for railsounds and serial data. Again, something as simple as a test with a meter and the LCRU powered and getting a TMCC signal, what does pin3 do (compared to frame ground-AKA Common)?

Again, don't get me wrong, you have a good idea- but the problem is limited by the very built in function of the firmware of the LCRU2 from Lionel. Yes, We know that ERR uses an R4LC that is supposed to be C08 code similar to the R2LC C08 by Lionel.

So what I do not know is what is pin3 on an ERR board connected to- a local processor on the lower board decoding serial data, or a pin out of the R4LC, and further, then we are assuming the code on an LCRU2, which being honest, is similar, but not exactly the same functions (you can set R2lC type feature codes), let alone the same physical connection to pin 3 out of the LCRU2 connector and it actually performs like an ERR board.

Again, please don't take what I am saying wrong. I myself bought a decent stack of LCRU2s at the last Lionel Parts sale, specifically they were $35 list so half of that- with wiring harness complete!! I also bought a few of the complete sled kits- LCRU2 and Railsounds 2.5 all on a complete aluminum heatsink and bracket- often used in the GP7/9s.

Again, there is great appeal in using an LCRU2, and while ERR AC commanders are higher performance and better features, it's sure hard to beat the cost of an LCRU2 (especially discounted to under $20) and it is a great thing for modifying your typical AC motored train (even if you paid more than that but less than the current ERR pricing).

It would be amazing if you get this to work and save yourself even more money. There is something fun about that, kind of cheating the system, figuring something out, and sharing it with the group.

I'm just trying to give you a path- test LCRU2 function of pin 3 first, before you build the rest of the DC offset and relay circuit.

To be clear, on an LCRU, we are talkng about this normally unused 3rd pin in the 4 pin connector used for serial data. Also, I know this diagram snip says DC-LCRU, but it's the same board, just populated sans motor TRIAC section.

https://ogrforum.com/...1#177257758352736191

I chose to modify mine with all the parts from a  2424RS whistle tender. It was not an easy job, but it sounds awesome for a non TMCC locomotive and tender.

@Vernon Barry Thanks for replying and the advice.  Yes, we are talking about the same 3rd pin.  I have an LCRX board installed in a Dummy unit that has an unused pin 3 that I was going to use for testing the output .  Good advice, test the waters before diving in.  From OGR posts it was mentioned that the Serial data line from a LCRU2 was not strong enough to engage/activate an ERR sound card which indicates two different boards, two different signal strength on the output of the respective pin 3's.

@Secarider Thanks for replying and the pictures. Could you explain how you did the install?  How did you wire the sound and horn?  Also what you did for an antenna, float the tender shell or something else?

@TomNe posted:

@Vernon Barry Thanks for replying and the advice.  Yes, we are talking about the same 3rd pin.  I have an LCRX board installed in a Dummy unit that has an unused pin 3 that I was going to use for testing the output .  Good advice, test the waters before diving in.  From OGR posts it was mentioned that the Serial data line from a LCRU2 was not strong enough to engage/activate an ERR sound card which indicates two different boards, two different signal strength on the output of the respective pin 3's.

No, sadly once again, not talking about the same thing. Pin 4 of the 4 pin connector- clearly shown in diagrams, is the serial data pin.

Yes, LCRU2s some used different resistors between the processor pin output and the actual board pin- thus limiting the serial data signal current and thus voltage. And yes, in some cases this caused serial data signal problems.

That is entirely different than pin3 of the 4 pin connector- not used in most installations and this specific function of being tied to the Whistle/Horn function digitally is an ERR exclusive function.

Again, PIN 4 VS PIN 3- totally different thing and function- let alone board differences.

VS

Also, from @gunrunnerjohn over in this topic, I see the 4 pin connector and the unused pin 3, but again, betting that doesn't do this ERR commander specific Whistle/Horn function of pin status.

A Lionel  6-19833 2424RS is its own electronic whistle tender with Railsounds II . It is a NON TMCC tender that works off a standard  transformer and track voltage, just like the 6-8215 779 Nickel Plate Road set does There is no antenna.   I could not just switch the tender bodies because the NPR tender body is smaller that the 2426RS Railsounds II tender body.  So I had to modify the NPR tender metal stamped chassis to accommodate the electronics and speaker from the 2426RS Tender. I had to make a bracket to hold the electronics in place. I also had to use the Wheel trucks from the 2426Rs, so I could have the wheel sensor. As I said not an easy job, It took me about 9 hours to build it. My 6-8215 779 Nickel Plate Road set is now probably a one of a kind. If you look at the close up at the previous 2 pictures that is the complete 779 Nickel Plate Road Tender, with all the 2426RS parts in working condition. It is a self contained unit that will work with just track power without the locomotive. But without the locomotive pulling it there will be no chuff sound, if its not moving on the track. Good luck with what ever modification you decide to do.

@Secarider Thanks for the detailed description of the NPR conversion, good work, you do have one of a kind.

@Vernon Barry  Thanks for taking the time to correct my error on the pin outs of the LCRU2 board.  That is why we post or ideas here on OGR so the "experts" can review and give advice, making sure we are on the right "Track" and are going in the correct direction before starting a project.

Attached is a pinout diagram from @PaperTRW showing pin #4 as the serial data pin for the LCRU2 board.

If I do not receive any comments on a single wire connection to the SOS board I will go forward with checking the output of pin #4 to see if it will activate the relay in GRJ's diagram.

No, I'm not sure how you keep reverting to this.

Pin 4 is serial data- a standard and pinout mostly for connecting to Railsounds, but also anything that requires serial command data stream.

Pin 3- not used (and likely not even connected)- is the special pin connection specific to ERR Commander external Whistle/Horn board 2 state digital pin (High/Low).

You are hoping that I'm wrong about pin 3, but pin 4 should not even be in the picture being discussed. Again, you are testing pin 3- hoping pin 3 does what the ERR Board does- go active state High (+5V) compared to frame ground only when the Horn/Whistle command is received over TMCC.

Again, look at this diagram from the ERR manual you linked earlier- it's pin 3 NOT pin 4- that does this special function.

FWIW, the full Cruise Commander doesn't have that signal on pin-3 of the sound board connection.  Only the AC or DC Commander and the Cruise Commander Lite have the signal.

@Vernon Barry   You are right, with meter in hand I checked a LCRX board and there is no voltage change on pin #4 when the horn or bell button are pressed.  Had to prove it for myself.  Thanks for hanging in there to convince me that ERR boards and LCRU behave different on the serial output pin when the horn button is pressed.  Again, that is why one should run it by the experts before getting too deep into a project that they have limited knowledge of.

And no voltage changes on pin #3 also.