Tmcc vs Dcs vs Digitrax

DCS is for MTH P2 or P3

TMCC is for Lionel

And nothing controls Weaver and Williams unless they have onboard chips installed.

Unfortunately its not like the DCC world where everything was interchangeable.

I had a rough time understanding this when I left HO and went into O 3 rail.

What makes maters worse is you may have to do your wiring a little different, revise your feeders, depending on which system you select.

 

I am still very confused with the MTH, TIU, Remote, Legacy, compatibility thing, so I have not jump to the dark side to buy a MTH control unit... but one of these days!

 

 

 

I am going to assume you intend to upgrade conventional engines to Command control.

Having no exposure to Digitrax I can only compare DCS and TMCC.

DCS is better control since the system is 2 way communication. You have feedback from engines to Controller to assure the command was taken. You can also read out Miles Traveled (Trip Odometer), Total Miles on engine, Total Time Powered up and signal strength for the engine.

If you lose signal the engine continues doing whatever it was told last.

With DCS you can also install the sound file for the engine you are running, if there is one for that engine and line (there are many).

DCS works best with a star (homerun style) wiring system and it Requires Blocks of not more than 13 pieces of track. The pieces can be any length so with 13 30" flex pieces you have a 32 foot long block.

Each Channel of the TIU can drive several blocks so a Large layout is possible with just the $300 set.

2 of the 4 TIU channels can control conventional engines.

 

TMCC is much less costly to install and seems to give decent control. Sound is whatever is in the unit, not sure what all is available there.

If you lose signal I believe the engine will stop and flash the lights.

I have not had that happen on my layout but I don't run much TMCC equipment.

TMCC Command sets are getting hard to fund - Out of Production for several years now.

Legacy is the replacement/Upgrade and will control TMCC units.

It requires add on modules to control Conventional engines.

As far as I am concerned, Legacy is the Bee's knees.  

 

It is simplicity itself to wire and install. It is a dream to use as the CAB-2 handset is very intuitive in use. (After only a few minutes use I was perfectly at home with using it.) Legacy gives me all the control I could ask for with my trains. With the all new features being added shortly, there should be enough to please anyone. (I've just downloaded the LCS App to my iPad, and I am very much looking forward to the supporting two-way interface hardware later this year.

Oh yes, and dare I say that Legacy sound is to die for. 

To get the most Control with MTH buy a DCS controller from MTH

To get the most control from Lionel trains buy the Lionel Legacy system

You can get DCS to have limited Lionel control TMCC basic , no legacy, when you attach it to a Lionel base

TMCC (Lionel's original command system) can be found in some Atlas and Kline engines and is controlled by the Legacy base or DCS when connected to a Legacy or old TMCC base

A decision on picking a control system depends somewhat on how many dollars you want to invest and how many "bells and whistles" you want to pay for. It also depends on whether you have a preference for the MTH technology or the Lionel technology which have significant design differences.

 

If you pick the latest Legacy system from Lionel be prepared to pay a premium for the latest engines that run on Legacy. Although you can also operate earlier TMCC equipment as has already been mentioned using Legacy.

 

If you pick the current MTH DCS system you will have a much larger selection of engines (new and used) which can be controlled by the MTH DCS since DCS has been around a lot longer.

 

The middle ground choice is to go with the MTH DCS since it can also control earlier TMCC versions from Lionel. Also there are a lot of MTH DCS compatible engines available in many roadnames.

 

It also may be wise to wait and see if MTH introduces its next generation control system in the near future.

 

 

 

Huh

 

1) Legacy engines are in all price ranges these days, from new list to blow outs. No "Premium" really

 

2) TMCC was out several years before DCS was on the market (TMCC 1996)

 

3) DCS can control TMCC but only if you buy a TMCC base. Like you said TMCC is tough to find so you will be picking up a Legacy base so there is no real advantage there

 

Dear newbie20,

 

You have asked a question about 3 different control systems:  TMCC, DCS, and Digitrax

 

1.  TMCC is Lionel's original command control system.  Lionel no longer makes TMCC.  It has been replaced by Lionel's Legacy system.  Legacy will run engines equipped with Legacy and will also run all older Lionel engines equipped with TMCC.

 

Lionel licensed other locomotive manufactures to install TMCC in their engines.  Weaver, Atlas, and 3rd-Rail have all installed and are currently installing a version of TMCC in their engines.  Lionel, to my knowledge, has not licensed Legacy to any other manufacturer.  However,  as I mentioned above, Legacy will run all TMCC engines so it will run Weaver, Atlas, and 3-Rail engines.  Standing alone, the Legacy/TMCC will only control Lionel and other Lionel compatible command control engines.

 

2.  DCS is MTH's command control system.  It has not been licensed to any other manufacturer.  Standing alone, it will only run MTH engines in command control.  However, MTH has designed its system so that TMCC and Legacy can be connected to it.  Therefore, if you have the proper TMCC or Legacy equipment connected to the DCS system, you can control both Legacy and TMCC command engines using the DCS system.  Remember, you will need both a MTH DCS system and a TMCC/Legacy system to control both Lionel and MTH engines using DCS.

 

3.  Digitrax is a DCC system.  Don't confuse DCC with DCS (the MTH system.)  DCC stands for Digital Command Control.  The National Model Railway Association (NRMA) helped to develop DCC as the standard command control system for all model railroad manufactures.  Nearly all new HO and N scale engines come with DCC installed or as DCC ready.  DCC ready means that you can easily put a DCC chip into the engine.  DCC is used almost exclusively by the 2-rail community in all scales including O gauge.   

 

There are many manufacturers who make DCC equipment.  Digitrax, NCE and MRC are some of the major manufacturers.  The advantage of DCC is that any engine equipped with DCC can be run by any manufacturers DCC equipment.

 

With one exception, Lionel and MTH engines will not run on DCC.

 

You may know that MTH has entered the HO market.  Since the vast majority of HO engines use DCC, MTH developed a new chip for their HO engines called PS3.  PS3 engines will run on both DCS and DCC.

 

MTH has started to install PS3 in their most recent O gauge engines.  These O gauge engines will run on both DCS and DCC.  You could use a Digitrax system to run a MTH PS3 engine in command control.

 

Digitrax's DCC system will not run MTH's earlier PS1 and PS2 engines.  MTH is still installing PS2 in some engines so you really need to check the box to see what you are buying.

 

I hope that this helps,  Joe 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lee,

 

This isn't exactly true.  I run Legacy engines all the time using TMCC.

 

TMCC will not allow you access to all the Legacy features such as train brakes but it will control a Legacy engine's forward, reverse, speed, lights, and bells and whistles.

 

Joe

That is incorrect.  A Digitrax system can work for N, HO, and O.  You just have to flip the switch to the correct scale and have the appropriate sized power pack.

 

The issue is, Digitrax is DCC and won't control MTH PS2, or any Lionel or TMCC unit.  It offers limited control of a single conventional engine and I believe will operate MTH PS3 equipped locos.

 

If you have the money, the best thing is to run both systems and not limit yourself.  I have only DCS right now but will be adding Legacy soon.  Once the DCS setup is wired the wiring for the Legacy is a very simple matter.  In the end, there is little cost difference when running DCS & Legacy together versus a full Digitrax setup.  I had a full Digitrax setup on my HO layout, and it was nice.  However the downside to the DCC standard is that it lacks much of the control DCS and Legacy offers.

Dear newbie20,

 

I just noticed in your question that you want to run Williams and Weaver engines.  I posted a reply earlier about running command control engines using the MTH, Lionel and Digitrax command control systems.

 

Williams engines are all conventional.  Williams does not make any command control engines.  Weaver makes engines that are conventional and other engines that are equipped with a version of Lionel's command control equipment.  

 

You do not need any type of command control system to run Williams engines.  All you need is a transformer with enough power.  Many people use a 1950's Lionel ZW to run Williams and other conventional engines.

 

You can also run any command control engine made by any manufacturer in conventional mode.  Lionel and MTH engines all default to conventional mode upon start up if they do not detect a command signal.  This is also true for Atlas, Weaver and 3rd-Rail engines which use the licensed Lionel command system.  This means you can use a 1950's era transformer to run these engines.  (I do not recommend this practice.  The slow acting circuit breakers in old transformers are not fast enough to protect modern electronics in case of a derailment, etc.  Some people wire fast acting fuses or circuit breakers between the old transformer and the track to protect modern electronics.  This enables them to use an old transformer and still protect their new trains.  I recommend that you buy a new transformer with the protection built in.)

 

Both MTH's DCS system and Lionel's Legacy/TMCC system can be configured to run conventional engines using their remote handsets.  You need to purchase some extra equipment with the Lionel system.  MTH built this capability into their DCS system.  Lionel also built this capability into their newest transformer.  At about $800 to $900 this an expensive solution.  

 

Many modelers try to stay away from running command control and conventional engines at the the same time.  I only run conventional engines around the Christmas tree, for example.

 

Joe

DCC was formally intoduced in late 1993 while TMCC was introduced in 1994 by Lionel.  lionel had been aware of and evaluated DCC before spending 2+ years and $2 million to develop TMCC.  They had also evaluated QSI's state machine before developing TMCC.  

 

There was a very limited availabilty of high current components to support 3 rail O.  A 5 amp encoder could handle an entire HO/N scale layout but woul barely cover a single train with open frame motors and illuminated passenge cars.  The wiring for the motors would have to be reworked to keep from degrading the command signal and the engine would now be command only.  At that time (mid 90's), most three rail O operators ran train in tight spaces at non prototypical speeds.  DCC commands had issues with "command latency" that were considered problemstic for typical three rail operation.

 

Both TMCC and DCS play nice with older equipment without requiring modifications and you can run older engines on the same tracks with command equipped trains.  These are important and often overlooked reasons why these systems were developed outside of the DCC umbrella.  Dallee has a push button command system called locomatic and Aristocraft is introducing a direct radio frequency system for O of their popular garden scale product Revolution TE (train engineer).

 

There are a lot of choices in O.  I find the irony that what most operators really want is a basic remote throttle that would run anything and not break the bank.  MTH was close with their original Remote Commander.  It had two flaws, 900mhz frequency that did't get along with the cordless phones of the day and it only worked with their very nice but also expensive TOL transformer, the Z-4000.  2nd place goes to Lionel's CAB-1/PowerMaster combination.  The original PowerMasters did't always play nice with modern electronic loco's because they used a modified waveform.

Since I'm not building a layout right now I can afford to play wait and see, but if I had to choose right now, I'd be getting Legacy for no other reason than I can buy a chip pretty cheap from ERR to upgrade my conventional engines to (at least) TMCC.  The only way to get a PS2 or PS3 chip is to buy a PS2 starter set engine and steal the guts out of it.  I'm sure Lionel's business model is to convince me to buy the latest engines with Legacy installed, but I want obscure engines, and I'm essentially building them myself out of old conventional engines.  I just want someone to sell me the electronics to add to my own trains.

Actually Wowak, you can buy the PS/2 upgrade kit for $150 if you're a member of the MTH RR Club, $180 is the retail price for anyone.  To upgrade to TMCC with RailSounds costs at least that much, especially for cruise capability.

 

I stand corrected.

Or sit.

if you buy the Legacy system as your main dollar purchase, you can pick up am MTH mini Commander for about $30 and add it to the system. the Mini Commander gives you all the basic features you will need to run  DCS. I find the Legacy hand held to be much more user friendly when running your trains

The DCS Remote Commander will only run a single engine at a time, and that engine MUST be reset to factory defaults using a full DCS system. 

 

The DCS RC works fine if you have one or two MTH locomotives and you never run them on a DCS layout, or have anyone bring a DCS locomotive to run at your place.  However, it quickly loses it's attraction once you get more DCS locomotives.

Most of MTH's starter systems now include the DCSRC (DCS Remote Commander).

I see this as a tip of the hat to the younger generation who expect everything to have a remote control.

It is also a low cost introduction to those who want to "Test out" command Control.

It has only the most basic functions, F-N-R select, Speed control, Bell, Whistle, Front or Rear Uncoupling, Volume, Engine start up and shutdown, and activation of Passenger or Freight yard effect sequence.

It will run on AC or DC track power, the remote needs 2 AA batteries and uses IR to the receiver, It requires line of sight and can be disrupted by bright sunlight.

It will command any PS2 or PS3 engine that is at factory reset address.

It CAN and will command multiple engines, but they will all do the exact same thing at the same time. Instant MU effect, but all the lights come on, All the whistles will sound, ect.

Full DCS has many more functions.

 

Yes, PS3 engines will work with Digitrax, set the switch to DCC

Yes, DCS requires a TMCC or Legacy base to control Lionel Trains and those licensed to use TMCC. You may as well Buy both systems in that case. DCS cannot access Legacy functions, only TMCC ones even in a Legacy engine.

 

I run both DCS and TMCC on my layout, I like the DCS remote better, but the TMCC crane is much better operated by the CAB-1 with overlay to label the buttons.

 

As each system has advantages, I Vote: BOTH. You can't go wrong there, but it is not cheap.

If you have invested in a bunch of command engines, the expense of the two command systems kinda' pales in comparison.

Then you read it wrong

TMCC (Cab1) will control Legacy engines just fine but not access the Advanced Legacy features. The basic TMCC commands are the same in TMCC as they are in Legacy. Legacy are additional commands on top of TMCC

A Legacy (CAB-2) system will run all the older TMCC engines with ALL features. Many have reported that older TMCC engines run better using the Legacy CAB-2 controller than they did with the CAB-1

Hopefully that clears it up for you

The only thing that the Legacy can't do that the CAB1 can do is talk to the original PowerMaster product.  There is a special product called the PowerMaster Bridge for Legacy that bridges this gap.  In response to this, Lionel has introduced a Legacy PowerMaster that works with the Legacy system directly.

I don't have TMCC or Legacy so I don't know what will work or not with it, only going by what others posted about TMCC.

 

Lee F.

 

Then WHY did you feel the need to answer the original poster's question at all?  Just about everything you posted is incorrect, including your "Digitrax is for use with H.O. only" statement.  Better tell that to a friend of mine who has been running his 20x40 foot O-scale 2-rail layout with Digitrax for a couple of years now.

 

 

 

Joe,

That was freaking awesome!!!!So I have to buy a DCS Controller w/  a Legacy controller connected to the TIU correct?

It did...tyvm

If you wish to access the BASIC TMCC commands using a DCS controller then yes you need either the original TMCC command base, A 990 Legacy base or the new (and unreleased so far)  Base 1L and a MTH Cable to connect them together