To TMCC or not to, that is my question: A Poll

had the same question..to go tmcc or DCS...seems like to me more guys are going DCS and taking there TMCC out of there lionel trains and installing DCS...That the route i might be taking..

I can't tell the difference between the sound of a GP-9 or GP-38.  All diesels sound pretty much the same to me except for certain horns.   

 

You say in post that these are PS-1 engines.  That means they are conventional engines with a good sound system.

 

I would say that you should get them repaired if you are only going to run them in conventional mode.

 

I like the convenience of command control.  I am either selling all of my conventional engines or I am upgrading them to TMCC.   I would recommend that you go with TMCC and live with the GP-9 sound system if you want command control.  

 

Can you really tell the difference between the MTH and Lionel sounds on a diesel?   Perhaps you can.  I can't.

 

Good luck with your decision.  Joe

I run both TMCC/Legacy and DCS.  I'd say go with the system you're most likely to run.  The newer TMCC upgrade sound boards have greatly improved sound now, and rival the PS/2 upgrade sounds, so the playing field is pretty level.

 

Legacy and dcs is the way to go .

I run both and I like both. I see no reason to limit yourself to only one system at all.

Budget concerns aside; having the ability to run DCS, Legacy and TMCC on your layout makes available limitless options when buying or upgrading engines.

When I got back into the hobby several years ago it was really hard for me to make sense of the differences in all te systems. I compared the cost of the systems to te cost of engines. I made the decision to by a Legacy and a DCS system before I started tobury more engines.

I feel it was money well spent and now when I shop for an engine the field is wide open. Sometimes I buy a Legacy engine. The next may be an older K-Line TMCC at a show for under $150.00. The next may be a DCS that grabs my eye.

One the command systems are in place and working as they should your engine choices become endless and can range in price from a hundred bucks to a thousand bucks, or more.

I'm surprised how often my TMCC engines see track time.

Do you have a TPC Track Power Controller that can run Proto.Sounds 2.0 locomotives in conventional mode using the TMCC TrainMaster base and a PowerHouse 180W transformer?

 

Andrew

I think item 4 would be your best choice, not because you want to send them to me but the cost of installation and repairs down the road. If you would try to do a ERR install yourself you will find that it is not complicated. I have help many folks do their first conversion and they never look back. If you want to try your first, we are only a phone call away.

 

Bill

run both TMCC and DCS. If you want to only run TMCC then sell off your MTH engines and buy new Lionel engines

I do not want to be limited so I run both.  I like both I can run MTH, LIONEL, ATLAS & K-LINE & WEAVER with no problems. I do not like putting all of my eggs in one basket.

 

I would start by taking your one dud unit and converting it to TMCC. And do it your self. It's easy. Select either a DC commander or a cruise commander. You don't have to install sounds right away. It can be added later. And when you do add railsounds don't get wrapped up trying to decide which sound set is best. GP-9 or SD-40?
Guess what?
A GP40 and a SD40 sound exactly the same. And a GP38 is pretty darn close to a GP40 so go with the SD sound set.
If you need help installing the TMCC parts, send me an email. I've done a few. It's easy.

IMO, it's not worth repairing PS1 boards. They are just too unreliable.

Let me just add to that by saying that cruise control from the Cruise Commander is worlds better than what you get with a DC Commander. The extra cost is well worth the enjoyment and smooth running. The installation work is the same.

I second the recommendation for the Cruise Commander.  If you're going to spend 75% of the money, might as well go all in, the difference is well worth it.

 

HI

 

I would upgrade to Cruise Commander TMCC that is what I am doing with my Williams, I do also run DCS but I am fed up with the signal problems, don't get that with TMCC ( it could be my layout) works well for me

I have DCS, TMCC, and Legacy on my layout and have enjoyed running all three.  But I would go with the TMCC based on my experience with a large layout.

 

Art

I agree! 

 

These days I operate with command control exclusively.

 

Although the majority of my locomotives are from MTH, I also run Lionel, K-Line, and Weaver units that are equipped with either TMCC or Legacy.

 

I'm recently toying around more with geared engines, and all three of the ones I currently have (two Shays and a Heisler) are from Lionel or K-Line.  Soon (I hope) the Climax w/PS3 will be released by MTH (scheduled for Jan. 2014...yeah, right!) and at that point the value of having both operating systems available will become even more evident.

If you start out and wire for DCS, all is well.  However, I have talked to several modular clubs besides ours, and all have DCS issues due to the way you end up wiring a modular setup.  Running star wiring really isn't all that practical, and so you end up with a bus.  I'm still fighting that on our club setup.

 

I followed the option 4. However this was many years ago when MTH announced PS2 with no backwards compatibility at that time. I sent 8 engines off to TAS and had then all converted to TMCC. I got the best of both worlds with this move. I really loved the engines and once converted to TMCC, I had a great command system.

 

A few years later I purchased a Erie Triplex when TAS was still in business and had this converted to TMCC.

 

Going this route the conversion was done by folks who knew what they were doing and a good result was assured.

 

Hope this helps.

You sayin' we don't know what we're doing?

John, not you, but ME. I would not attempt a conversion like this in a million years. By having TAS do the job, I did not wind up with a bunch of parts and 8 useless engines.

John,

For bus wiring, is the Legacy signal more robust than DCS? I'm leaning Cab1L/Base1L because it's priced right and I really want the coupler firing capability for my Legacy engines.

S

My current "layout" is FasTrack on the floor that gets rearranged once a month or so.  Most of the time I'm powering with one of my CW-80s.  I do have one command base and 2 Cab-1s, a ZW-C with 2 180W bricks, and a Z-1000.  I also have a half dozen old AF and Marx AC transformers.  So I can run conventional with the Cab-1 if I so choose, and once I am able to build a more permanent layout in my back room, I will wire it to do so.  I do also plan on making it DCS friendly, but currently I do not have any plans to get a DCS system in the near future.  It won't be until I've already gotten all the conventional or TMCC locomotives on my hit list.  Then I will be hunting for the Triplex, which has only been released as a DCS locomotive.  As for the sounds, is there some site, or YouTube videos, that has sound clips of the different RS sound sets that I can listen too to see if I'm okay with a GP7/9 or SD40 sound and horn for my GP38s?  I'll admit I'm leaning to TMCC because it'll make the prospect of a MU much simpler, which is the whole reason I got the two none working units, so I could have a triple headed train, or double headed with a helper at the end or mid train.  As for cruse, that is one thing I have yet to experience as none of the 4 TMCC equipped locomotives I have in the house have any form of speed control, so I play with the throttle to maintain my train movement.  But if I go that way, I have no problem ponying up for the better system.  In the end I might just have Bill do one, and then use it as a pattern to do the other two.

 

I'm glad there is so much helpful types on this forum, enough to keep this from becoming a TMCC vs DCS vs conventional thing.  I love running conventional, but then I have only done simple floor loops.  TMCC is fun in it's own right, and I can see how it'll make things nicer on my permanent layout, and the way it's track plan design has been going tilts to command operations.  My layout will be built so I can run all conventional without problems, but you can be sure my command base will be wired in as well for when I want to run my command locomotives.  Guess we'll see where I head in the next couple of years.

Due to the different wavelength and propagation method of the signals, the TMCC/Legacy signal is more forgiving of the wiring practice on the layout.  Until you get to really big layouts, typically TMCC is pretty easy to live with.  With DCS, you do have to plan ahead with the wiring for the best result.  One issue with TMCC/Legacy is a number of adjacent tracks or multi-level layouts.  Sometimes you'll run into a signal issue that needs a ground wire added to help with the signal.

 

I have 2 PS-1 engines that I love the sounds in. I have replaced the batteries and mine are not on the list of engines that will deselect if powered up on a dead battery. Check yours VS that list, It's important. If on the list Ensure you maintain a charge on them. A BCR might be the way to go in that case.

For Christmas I received a new PS-3 one. I am not impressed with the sounds in the new one. It's set up with the Trolley stop system but has not given me any of the old Ambiance sounds I love so much in the originals.

I WILL be adding Cruise Commanders to both the old ones as I have gone to all Command Control on my layouts, Even the Christmas loop.

Leave the PS-1 sound working if possible, but add the Cruise Commanders.

IF you can get the PS-1 sounds working, they are awesome but don't spend a lot of money on it, they are old tech. If swapping boards around gets one working, Great, otherwise move on.

You won't regret it.

Good Luck, But HAVE FUN, that's what they are for.

Not sure how you'll keep the old sounds working, but there may be a solution coming down the pike.

 

My first TMCC loco was the sub-scale N&W J Warhorse; bought the set for the set,

but it came with a CAB-1. This was years ago. A friend brought his command base

over and we had it hooked up in 5 minutes, and I tried the CAB-1.

 

I haven't looked back since; for the first time I was driving the locomotive and not

"driving the layout". I have had almost no use for Conventional operation since.

 

I had no idea that it would make such a psychological difference - and the Warhorse

J, while attractive, is one of the all-rime -worse- TMCC locomotives ever made - so it's

not like the engine was a great runner, either.

Russell, I know I've asked before, but I'm asking again, just how do you plan on keeping the PS-1 sounds working, and have TMCC control of the locomotive?

 

John, just what do you mean by something down the pike?  I know there was a board once for PS-1 locomotives, but they closed up shop.  I bought a locomotive that had one, but it didn't work, so I got rid of it, but I'd love to have something that did work for all my PS-1 locomotives someday.

The modern locomotives, whether TMCC/Legacy or PS2/3 are way more refined than the early AC motored TMCC stuff.  Sounds and performance have come a long ways.

 

I'm talking about a board that might be able to rescue the sounds and trigger them from TMCC.  Still too early to know if I can apply that to the PS/1 audio, I haven't looked that far.

 

I do have a couple of the DD Equalizers in the closet that were the TMCC upgrade for the PS/1, I haven't had a chance to dig them out and test to see if they're operational.  Since they don't have cruise, I'm not personally interested, but when I test them, I'll probably sell them.

That's the board I had, a DD Equalizer, but the locomotive it was in did not work under conventional or command, so I swapped a PS-1 bottom board back in and now it works as it should.  I gave the DD board to GGG for him to mess with.  If I were an EE instead of a ME, I would of kept it and tried getting it working and figure out how to copy it.

 

As for this other board, is it one you are developing?  If you want a tester, let me know.  I've got several PS-1 locomotives that I'd be willing to use as guinea pigs.  My hotmail is nj underscore sinclair.

I have to do some testing with the PS/1 stuff to see if it's possible to get it working.  I can run a conventional whistle/bell from TMCC, but the PS/1 package may be more challenging.

 

TMCC + PS-1.
Here is an idea:

What if you had two locomotives.
One TMCC and one PS-1.
Run a tether between the two.
On the PS1, cut its power wires.
Run power wires from the motor outputs of the TMCC loco to the PS1 power inputs.
Now, wouldn't the PS1 think its on conventional power because it's receiving variable voltage from the TMCC outputs?

Just an idea. I have no idea how you would trigger horn or bell from that.

TMCC + PS-1.
Here is an idea:

What if you had two locomotives.
One TMCC and one PS-1.
Run a tether between the two.
On the PS1, cut its power wires.
Run power wires from the motor outputs of the TMCC loco to the PS1 power inputs.
Now, wouldn't the PS1 think its on conventional power because it's receiving variable voltage from the TMCC outputs?

Just an idea. I have no idea how you would trigger horn or bell from that.

The motor drive is DC of varying polarity, and frequently too low in voltage to trigger anything on the PS/1 boards.  Also, since it's DC, either the horn or whistle would always be triggered.

 

It's got to be a bit more sophisticated than that.

 

Back to the original question; why restrict yourself to only one system?

You can pick up the new Cab1L system and run any TMCC or Legacy engine, and also run all PS-2 and PS-3 engines using DCS. Either system costs less than a single engine to buy, and you only need to buy it once.

They play well together and can be used simultaneously.

Then if Lionel ever releases the new Legacy system you could upgrade to that if desired.

 

Rod

That would certainly be my recommendation since that's precisely what I do.  A relatively modest one-time investment and an opportunity to experience both systems (both of which are very easy to set up and operate).

Again, if you read one of my posts above, right now I already have a TMCC base and Cab-1.  So for the price of DCS, I can instead upgrade these locomotives to TMCC.  Also, most of the locomotives I want to get were released as TMCC or PS-1.  Once I have those, then my next buy will be a Triplex, which has only been done my MTH as a PS2/3, therefore, at that time, I'll invest in DCS.  But until then, I'm using my money to buy the rolling stock instead of another command system.  I'm not limiting myself, I just have a long term plan that I'm currently happy with.  The main point of my question is for those that have done so, which will give me the best options for using these locomotives either solo or in a MU knowing that I do have TMCC capabilities, and am also completely comfortable and happy doing this conventionally.

In that case, just stick with whatever floats your boat.  If you're happy with your long-term plan and it works for you, there's really nothing else that needs to be said.

 

The original TMCC is certainly fine, but now somewhat out of date.  MTH PS1 (actually a misnomer since it wasn't actually a comparable to PS2 or PS3) is woefully out of date, but still performs well enough for some of those who still have it.

 

If you want to be up-to-date and ready to run virtually anything available in command control (including conventional capability, of course), my feeling is you would want to have Lionel Legacy or Lionel CAB-1L/BASE-1L, and MTH DCS.  Obviously, though, that is not your priority.  You can certainly get by with something less capable and/or older, but that's strictly your choice based on your own stated preferences.

I have TMCC and Conventional capability via TPCs.

 

I also have an early Legacy System, registered and in box under the layout. If my physical situation improves to the point that I can return to my attic layout work I will probably install the Legacy just for somewhat better Cab 1 operation.

 

Getting down from 50 to 6-7 engines--yep, 4 car passenger and 7 car freight trains---running slow on the 9x16 dual mains.  

[rehabbing from last weeks spinal surgery which is predicted to eliminate my three year old disability].