Track types?

About Gauge

that didnt answer the questions i know what O is and O27 i found out the hard way. what is the "classic" and "hi-rail"

Hi

 Classic "O" is the old  o gauge rail you had as a kid.

 Hi rail is when you have all your trains and buildings scale but you still run scale three rail witch is hier than scale rail.

Classic O is a Lionel term to describe their larger size o-gauge trains as opposed to 027 trains. It also applies to a specific line of o-gauge trains by Lionel. Essentially, Classic O is meaningless.

 

Hirail is a relatively new term that describes O-Gauge railroaders who have layouts with non-scale trains in a scale scenery. In other words, everything but the trains and track are built to scale.

The terms have nothing to do with track types.

 

The basic track types/brands available today include:

 

O27 tubular (several brands, past and/or present)

O gauge tubular (several brands)

GarGraves

Ross

Lionel FasTrack w/roadbed

MTH RealTrax w/roadbed

MTH ScaleTrax

Atlas O

Atlas O Industrial Rail w/roadbed

K-Line (now RMT) Super-Snap

...and probably one or two others.

Well if we're talking scale in addition to gauge or track types, then it's a whole different question.

 

"O-27", "O", "Traditional O", "Classic O", "Standard O", "O Scale", "Scale Proportioned O", "Near Scale", "LionMaster O", "3/16 O", "Scale Detailed", "RailKing O", "Premiere O", "Train 19 O" and on and on.

 

The problem there is a melding of scale terminology with marketing terms to present O gauge products to the consumer.   It is confusing.

ok part two of the question, like i've said i have the O and O27 tubular track, what about pros and cons? this next week im going to go get plywood, and other materials to start my grandsons toy train board.

p.s. sorry about the noob questions but im greener than grass with this gauge 

Everyone here has a preference, and that's all it is.  For facts, I suggest you go to a hobby shop if you can and ask to see all the types they carry.  Each has their own quirks.  You'll probably find 027 is the least expensive, but other brands have their own built-in simulated roadbed.  GarGraves will most likely be the cheapest of the more realistic-looking styles.

Quite correct Rob. The manufacturers muddle the picture with their own inconsistent terminology. Which track system you end up using is your own personal choice. A "Newbie's" best bet is to go to a well stocked Hobby Shop and check out all of the track types available along with their prices. Then one can make a better informed decision. This question of "Track Type" has been posted numerous times.

Cobrabob.

Kind of hard to answer that since it pretty much depends on what you--as an individual--might be looking for (space available, types/sizes of locomotives and rolling stock you intend to run, and your budget, among other factors).

 

All of the track I noted above will work with all 3-rail O gauge trains.

 

Some brands/types have a lower rail profile than others.  Personally, I like the lower rail profile of O27, Lionel FasTrack, and MTH ScaleTrax.

 

Probably the most popular (meaning best selling) brands in the hobby today are Lionel FasTrack, Atlas O, and GarGraves.  Those are the brands you're most likely to find at most train stores.  Shops not specializing in trains may have a more limited number of brands available.

 

Many hobbyists going for the hi-rail look tend to prefer GarGraves with switches from Ross Custom Switches, Atlas O, or MTH ScaleTrax.

 

my space is a 14x14 loft that i can use all of the space, and i think i want to stick with the tubular track seeing as this is what i have now. is there a way to adapt the O27 and use it with the O?

i found out the hard way what O27 is and that O wont connect to them (almost ruined my grandsons day!).

Uh, this is incorrect when talking tubular track. Both O and O27 will connect [not with ease though] BUT you will have to shim up the 027 ties to match the height of the O guage track. Since you are a newbie, the best suggestion is to use the track that you are more comfortable with and stick to that type of track until you feel you are confident on the uses of that track. Since you are working with your gransdon on this project, Might I suggest to stick with the thicker and more robust O gauge track. 

 

IF you want to mix the two, use O guage for the main lines and the O27 for the sidings. This will limit issues with the different track heights and gaps that could come about as well as looking more realistic since sidings tend to have lighter rail than main lines.

 

NOw don't forget to use multiple power drops[or feed]s on the main like 1 drop for every 3-6 feet of track[ curves included]. Remember, you could have the best, most expensive locomotive that can mimic the real one but IT will not be worth a darn if your track that it's riding on is crap. Track is the foundation of ALL model railroads.

um,,,,,,,,,, what do you mean "power drops"? can i have an english translation? keep in mind, im a noob

A power drop is simply another connection from transformer to track.  There is voltage loss around the track, the longer the track run (actually the more track joints) the bigger the loss.  So you add more wires to mitigate the loss.  I also think you'll have frustration trying to mix O and 027.  027 has been made on 27, 34, 42, 54 and 72 inch diameter circles.  Not all of it is current production, so you'd have to look around for some of them. 

The wider radius O27-size curves are not as easily available, especially used, in my experience. I like to use those myself but it took time to find them in my area. I suggest you avoid buying any used O27 electric switches; they can be problematic.

 

You could build a mostly or completely separate circuit of O27 track to make use of what you already have. "Standard-O" and O27 tubular tracks can be joined but I would suggest minimizing the connections.

 

Karvelis, if you could post photos of your trains we could make some more specific suggestions for you!

You can do it, but it yields inconsistent results. You carefully tap an O gauge track pin into the end of the O-27 track rail. It will expand the hole. You'll also need to shim the O-27 track road bed to match the height difference. Don't try to crimp the O gauge track down to fit O-27 pins -- it doesn't turn out well.

 

If you don't have a large investment in the O-27 track, you might be better served in your layout construction using FasTrack as there's a greater variety of pieces and track accessories (grade crossings, etc.) available. Operationally, all of the equipment is compatible with FasTrack.

It is possible to connect O27 and O, but the O27 has to be shimmed to match the height of the O, which is the taller of the two.  You then have to either fabricate or locate adapter track pins, because the O gauge rail head is slightly larger diameter than the O27.  Problems yes, but not insurmountable ones.

 

Pete

this is what i have so far, im getting lumber this week. and im starting my grandsons layout.

 

Karvelis - I think you're asking good questions.  There's somewhat of a hierarchy of decisions to make.  Frankly, I think the first one is your overall budget, not just now, but going forward, and whether you plan to invest in expensive, 1:48 scale engines, cars, and other items or if you prefer (like me) the simpler, lower cost "toy train" option. 

 

If you want to go for realism and plan to make the investment of time and dollars, then you should look into the more realistic track alternatives if your investment in tubular track is low.  Not that you can't make your tubular track look more realistic, but the other alternatives Allan mentioned are better (but more expensive).

 

All of this is "O Gauge" but the difference splits there to "O Scale" which is 1:48 in scale and generally more detailed and expensive.  Lots of cool electronics.  The "traditional"/"semi-scale" etc. terms are geared more to guys like me who run trains in a toy train layout without much scenery or regard for realism.  If you're like me, then your tubular track is fine.

 

The higher profile "hi rail" was once referred to as O Gauge and the lower profile as O27 Gauge, at least in my family years ago.  That's really not accurate because both are the same gauge (distance between outer rails is the same).  The higher rail originally came with 31" as the smallest diameter curves and went up to, I believe, 72".  The O27 was limited, initially, to 27" but that's been expanded to 42" and 54" so curve diameter is no longer the big differentiator it once was.

 

My recommendation is to go for the biggest curves your layout will support.  Looks better, even with small engines, and prevents tip-overs that occur on 27" curves at high speed.

 

You will pay a greater premium for switches (turnouts) on the higher rail tubular track, but they come with a benefit, being the ability to power them separately rather than from track power.  Being an O27 guy, I wish I had that option but the last manufacturer to make switches with separate power connections for O27 is out of business. 

 

You can mix and match O27 and hi-rail, but going forward, I'd pick one and reserve the minority for sidings, like someone else said, to reduce transition points.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

of the decisions i have made are, this is for a 4 year old. so im going toy layout. also i dont have a lot of budget, so im going cheap. the set below is what i have the most of, and will be putting on a board this next week. i guess you would say im going with the "traditional/semi-scale" concept mentioned

Since you stated that your budget is limited, I would use Lionel O gauge tubular track and switches.  Don't use 027 tubular.  The trains will run better.  O gauge standard radius turn is 31".  027 standard radius turn is 27".  The wider the turn, the better the trains will run through it.  O gauge switches are also better than the 027 switches albeit more expensive.  Don't try and mate 027 tubular and o gauge tubular track.  Its a pain.  The tracks are different heights and the connecting pins are a different thickness as well.  You'll end up having to shim the 027 track to get it to the correct height and you'll have to really widen the rail ends to fit the track pins.  Another point is that, longer engines are not rated for 027 track.  Some have a minimum radius of 31".  You'll have more flexibility for engines when you use track with a wider radius.

 

If you have room in the budget, fastrack is a great for kids layouts.  The track is kid friendly, the standard radius turn is 36" which is even better for the trains.  The switches are highly rated and are very dependable.

Karvelis,

   There has been a lot of information thrown at you so let me try to help you out.

There is a transition track available to join your O guage track with your 027 track.

You should be able to pick this up at most train stores, or even on line. 

Keep your layout simple for a 4 year old to play with.  My recommendation is that in the furure you take your Grandson to some train shows.  Further I always recommend FasTrack to anybody re-entering the O Gauge hobby, easy to work with

and durable stuff.  You can usually pick FasTrack up at the train shows for reasonable money, FasTrack has a transition track to join O Gauge track also.

So you can use your O and 027 with it. 

Have fun with your Grandson and his trains

PCRR/Dave

 

 

Our little Christmas layout using FasTrack and RealTrax ovals.

 

 

 

Karvelis, here is a track plan suggestion for a kid-friendly layout to run two trains, using your set of new track on a 4'x 8' table. For an easy start on scenicking, put a blanket or carpet on the table-top before laying track.

 

thank you so much, i will consider this very seriously!

Even though you have a large layout available, I recommend that you start small with a test layout or phase I layout.   Something like what Ace suggested is a great first start.  You will find that your preferences change as you learn.  Most folks evolve toward more sophisticated - you may find that you want a wider diameter for better appearance and operation.  Or maybe not.

But its more satisfying to get a small layout running quickly that your grandson will love, while you then begin the grand layout.  Some folks even incorporate the original small layout as a section on their larger pike.

Good luck and have fun!  If you are not having fun, rethink how you are going about it.

Also, starting small keeps the budget lower - great when starting out, and you avoid a big investment in track that you may move away from in the future.  You don't have to make perfect decisions "for all time" when you start with a small test layout. 

 

Also, in addition to the carpet, you could put down some felt - there are a number of off-green and gray felts you can choose from - just another option.

You have some Lionel O gauge tubular track now, so my recommendation at this point would be to just stick with that track (which you apparently have already decided to do), and then see how well it suits your needs.  For a "toy train" layout you should be just fine with this or any other track.  I would not recommend mixing O and O27 track.  It certainly can be done, but I'm one of those folks who prefers the more uniform and consistent look when it comes to track work.

i know ACE posted a neat layout i can do with my set, are there any other options?

Hi Karvelis,

 

Welcome to the forum and O gauge!

 

First, lets get a little more in depth about track, how different brands can mate, and things to consider then picking a brand.  Alan gave you a pretty good list of the track systems that are available.  Some systems offer more sizes of curve track and switches than others.  That ends up being a big deal because it gives you more options to fit your space.  You said your room is 14x14, which is pretty good sized.  However, O gauge trains are big and eat up space fast, especially when you try to build a yard with lots of parallel tracks.  The top three brands that give you the most options in curves and switches are...

 

#1 - Ross/Gargraves

#2 - Atlas O

#3 - Lionel O Gauge (aka "tubular)

 

You'll notice I listed Ross and Gargraves together.  You will often seeing them discussed on the forum this way because they are very similar and mate together without any special adapters.  Ross is a little more expensive and not found in as many hobby shops, but is readily available and is the highest quality track on the market.  Both Ross and Gargraves are made in the USA.

 

Lionel "tubular" O Gauge track has been around for nearly 100 years.  Several companies have made clone products that have added variety to what is available.  In particular, K-Line (now out of business, but much of their product has been picked up by other companies) and Ross brought additional sizes of switches to this system.  Most O Gauge tubular track you find in hobby shops will be made by Lionel, but you have more options than what is listed in the Lionel catalog.

 

Now lets talk about mating different track systems.  Lionel's tubular O Gauge track was the first mass produced system and set the defacto standard for rail height (distance from the button of the ties to the top of the rail).  Most track systems have been designed to mate to tubular O with relatively simple transition pieces and/or adapter pins.  Here's a list of track systems that are the same height as tubular O and offer adapter track sections.

 

Lionel FasTrack

MTH RealTrax

Atlas O Industrial Rail

K-Line Super Snap

 

Several more track systems will mate to tubular O when installed on a layer of cork road bed.  Many people like the appearance of cork roadbed under their track.  It looks a bit like real railroad ballast.  Midwest Products and a few other companies have offered the same 3/16" thick cork roadbed for decades and it is readily available at most hobby shops that carry O Gauge trains.  The following track systems match the height of tubular O when install on top of cork.

 

Ross/Gargraves

Atlas O

Lionel O-27

 

Each of these systems can be mated to tubular O and each other adapter pins or rail joiners.

 

Even though you CAN mate different track systems it doesn't mean you nessecarily SHOULD.  A lot of people starting out over estimate the benefit of mating one track system to another.  Often this is driven by the desire to make use of the little bit of track they already own.

 

i think i want to stick with the tubular track seeing as this is what i have now. is there a way to adapt the O27 and use it with the O?

 

In the long run this is a very poor decision driver.  You might have $100 or so wrapped up in tubular O or O27 track.  However, over time you could easily spend over $5000 on track and switches for a 14x14 layout.  You're much better off picking the track system you like best and selling/trading the rest.

 

There are some other things to consider when picking your track.  One is availability.  You'll notice I mentioned several times above that some systems are easier to find than others at local hobby shops (aka LHS).  It's a nice convenience to be able to drive a few miles and pickup that one extra piece of track you need to finish a new siding.  However, none of the track systems we've talked about is difficult to acquire on-line or mail order.

 

Another consideration is cost.  Most track systems work out to a pretty similar cost (about a 10% range) when you add up all the track and switches.  In some systems, such as tubular O Gauge, the switches cost a lot but straight and curve track is relatively cheap.  For other systems, such as Ross/Gargraves, the opposite is true.  For most layouts the three least expensive track systems are...

 

Lionel O27

Lionel FasTrack

Ross/Gargraves

 

You should also consider quality.  Quality breaks down into two areas; general build quality and reliable switch operation.  The general build quality on Ross and Gargraves sectional track is excellent.  When it comes to switches, that's where the two brands are discussed separately.  Ross makes by far the best quality switches on the market and at a mid-level to upper-level price range.  Gargraves switches are OK but not great and are less money.  Lionel tubular O is very robust track, but some of the modern production switches are JUNK!  Do not under any circumstances waste your money on a Lionel tubular O-72 switch.  You might as well set a $100 bill on fire.  That would at least keep you warm for a few seconds.  If you go with tubular O you want to use as many RossPlate (Ross tubular O), K-Line, and vintage Lionel switches as possible.  Atlas track is a similar story.  The sectional straights and curves are very good quality but the switches have issues.  Some folks are willing to cope with those issues because Atlas looks much more realistic most other track systems.  Atlas Industrial Rail track is also good quality and the switches are more reliable than the Atlas O switches.  Lionel FasTrack switches have proven to be quite good and track is reasonably durable.  There are long term issues with electrical continuity in FasTrack but it is very manageable on permanent layouts.  The main complaint with FasTrack is that is noticeably louder than other brands.  MTH RealTrax has been both very good quality and very bad quality at different times.  The current production is quite good, but you have to be very careful if you shop used RealTrax.  MTH ScaleTrax has very good quality straights and curves but the switches do have QC issues.  Again, some people are willing to correct these issues because of the more realistic appearance.  The issues with ScalTrax switches are easier to correct than Atlas.  K-Line Super Snap (now made by RMT) has good quality straights and curves and the switches are reasonably smooth.  However, K-Line Super Snap switches have had switch motor issues over the years.  I have no hands on experience with this track since RMT took over production but the samples I have seen appear identical to the K-Line product.

 

I build model railroads for a living and have had the chance to use all of the above track systems on one or more projects.  For someone just getting into the hobby and looking to build in a 14x14 space I would suggest selling both your O Gauge and O27 tubular track and building with Ross/Gargraves or FasTrack.  Both systems strike a good balance between easy learning curve, variety of switches and curves, and availability.  However, other things may be important to you such as appearance, price, etc.  The best advice is to visit some hobby shops, an O Gauge club, or maybe make contact with others on the forum who live in your area.  Check out what's available and se what YOU like.  A little extra time up front can save you a lot of time, money, and grief down the road.  The more time spent running trains with your grandson and the less time undoing mistakes the better.  In the end you'll have more fun.

Some of the options for a layout would be to buy a book on track layouts or find an older Lionel instruction manual as that has some nice layouts in the back pages to consider.

 

I like either Lionel tubular track like 031 or 027, the cost is much less and won't make you use bad words because the Fastrac didn't because you tried to free-lance a layout.

Also Gargraves track is very good and cost about the same as Fastrac but don't have the assembly issues of Fastrac, Fastrac is over-rated!!

I set up a small loop of Fastrac and was highly dis-appointed with the electrical performance, no switches as I could not afford them, also the track got dirty twice as easy as tubular track. Tried to add a couple of half curves in 36 inch diameter and do simple 3/4 curve and I nearly smashed all the Fastrac sections that I had, as I was that frustrated with it!

A word about Fastrac "DON'T DO IT!! It ain't worth it!

 

Lee Fritz

If you tell me how much O27 track you have, I will be happy to give you some more track plan ideas to use the track that you already have. I would probably arrange the O27 as a separate circuit for your second train, so you won't have to deal with connecting the different types of track. However, if your O27 track is old and rusty, it may be more trouble than it's worth.

 

How big a table do you want to build? I would suggest starting out with a 4'x 8' table, then if your grandson shows enthusiasm you can add on, perhaps with another 4'x 8' table to make an L-shape.

 

If your 14' x 14' loft space has sloping ceilings, you may want to consider a U-shaped layout so you can walk into the center area with full headroom. For the trains and track that you have now, O31 curves should be OK (a half-circle of track is 31" in diameter). If you show us the floorplan for the room, we can give you more ideas.

Ace, i have the  deluxe box set of O, and about 12 pieces of O27

Never let the truth get in the way of a good rant.

Fastrack over rated? Everyone has their opinions, but, how could Fastrack possibly get dirty twice as easy as tubular? They are both tubular tinplate.

I can pretty much address that with one word:  Nonsense!

I noticed that someone was mentioning the term `radius, when they meant diameter.

For example 027"  is not radius, but the distance right across  a circle of track.   Confusing now that wider diameters are now made but still called 027!

Just one of the myriad confusing aspects of O gauge track.  It can be clarified by specifying "027 profile track", in XXX diameter.

The rant against Fastrack is somewhat unfair. I freelanced a layout for Christmas. I got it to work, a loop with a folded figure 8 inside connected via a long siding.

The things I didn't like were:
It's loud
The trestles are pretty steep and after a bit only ran really small consists on it. This is not neccesarily an inherent fault of Fastrack.
It did get dirty really fast so i bought a track cleaner. Worked great. Big deal, my daughter loved to watch the old 3927 I fixed up.
It was a project to unhook the wires to the switches to add length so i skipped it.
They could have blacked the center rail and/or made it smaller.

Things I liked. Mostly it stayed together.
Pretty easy to connect feeders.
Fairly easy to fabricate block boundaries where the fitter/insulated piece wouldn't work. Created insulated blocks for control and to power accessories fairly easily. Hacking up 10" and 5" straights was cheaper than buying specialty pieces.
Other than a problem with 1 engine stalling going through the switch, which was the engine and was fixed with a wire to the tender I don't think I had one problem with the 4 switches I used.
I like that the switch motor and gear is hidden.
Looked good other than the center rail.

Observations -
It ain't cheap.
There is lots of it everywhere.
Good variety.

I would - Absolutely power the switches from a separate power source. I didn't like turning on the engine and then trying to chase the switches to get it set, especailly since at to low a voltage it doesn't want to work. Setting the switches with the engines stopped leads to less heartburn and fewer unfortunate accidents. Every wreck was my fault, my 9 yo daughter never dumped one cuz I'm so much more experienced you know. Every unfortunate occurence involved me setting the switches wrong or not fast enough. Nuff said.

I'm trying Supersnap for the new layout. I like the way it looks and **** is it quiet. It just feels like quality stuff, but it has it's warts, too, and will comment on that after about a month or 6 weeks. Need to wring out the switches, already had a few issues but it may be the cars, I'm running conventional 4-4-2 with 5 9500 series passenger cars from the 70s for testing. They are way to light and plastic trucks, but the couplers are body mounts. I suspect the weight and the cheesy trucks are the problem, but I want to give a fair run. If the WBB  Shark with the Williams passenger set has a problem, then I'll be worried.


Ultimately I expect to mix the two, especially when the basement is cleaned up. Right now I'm running 6 x 10. Kind of a reach but doable. Will likely keep the Fastrack, some of it anyway, for the holidays since it is easy to throw something together fast.

Dave Hikel's comments from experience, with all or most the varieties, were certainly interesting.  With switches as expensive as they are, it looks like it is impossible  to get a good basic foundation to run a $2,000 loco on, at any price.  I don't like ANY of the track systems available, either for appearance, ease of use (including interbrand compatibility), or reliability (much of that described on here).  I had almost no track problems with my postwar childhood Marx O-27, including all metal switches, but that definitely lacks in appearance. (The large #21 tin diesels did not run well through the 0-27 switches..a radius problem).  Plastic switches, like

so much of plastic..........barf!! I would start with Scaletrax rail, put it on solid wooden ties (at Scaletrax height), with simple rail joiners, maybe of the HO style for same brand use (but with adequate radii and switches available, why would I use any other brand?), and simple half and half HO style and track pin connector for other brands, if cannot be avoided.

Switches would be on an inflexible metal base with solid wooden Scaletrax height ties.

All should work, out of the box, in the "tinplate" world, and not have to be relaid

and "fiddled with", as preferred by scale modelers who may wish to lay their own

track.  Track is all over the layout...you see it with not a bobber caboose in sight...

why should it not be both realistic and reliable?  Why is it not?   Lack of it is a deterrent to building a layout and the reason this poster has questions and is delayed in  building a layout, and may drive away new entrants into this hobby, which is no goal of ours.  Somebody please tool up something.