Tubular Track Taper

Factory error?

No, I believe one or two manufacturers, A.C. Gilbert may be one, made super-elevated track (curves), so that may be a transition piece if it is a straight and the other end is a full tie and even.

High speed curves.

Probably so there does not have to be a transition from super elevation to flat.

I think that track is American Flyer.

Sorry I forgot to mention the maker...this is Hornby 2 rail track guys...

I have always just bought some here and there when it shows up, definately factory. I'm guessing, probably have 50-60 pcs of straights and at least a dozen are tapered. It would make sense that coming out of a corner they may want to transition a taper on one end and a full tie on the other but that's not the case here, all three ties on these pcs I have are tapered. 

Glad I asked now, sure don't like bothering you guys with foolish questions, my problem is figuring out which questions are foolish!

Hornby made O gauge from the 1920's until the mid to late 50's.  You would have to contact an expert on Hornby stuff.  There is a gentleman in the Netherlands who has written extensively on European tinplate and posts on this forum.  Fred.....handle is sncf231.  He may be able to answer your question.  He has a great outdoor O and #1 gauge layout in his yard.

Another interesting thing I might ask about tubular track. I am as far from an expert as you can get...but I have bought a few original boxes of Hornby two rail track, and have also seen this advertised when others are selling Hornby track....I think it used to come with "track clips" that I assume were meant to hold it together. They are kind of a bugger to get on, but the ties have holes for screws also...why holes and track clips?

Perhaps track clips for temporary floor layouts?

Did Flyer or Lionel or others ever use track clips? 

Tinplate Tom posted:

Hornby made O gauge from the 1920's until the mid to late 50's.  You would have to contact an expert on Hornby stuff.  There is a gentleman in the Netherlands who has written extensively on European tinplate and posts on this forum.  Fred.....handle is sncf231.  He may be able to answer your question.  He has a great outdoor O and #1 gauge layout in his yard.

Thanks Tinplate Tom...I was actually hoping to catch one of the guys who collect Hornby and frequent the board. I think I have them to blame for getting me hooked on Hornby anyway   But I also didn't know if Flyer/Lionel & others track was also tapered...

I get it.  I recently bought a Basset-Lowke O gauge LMS 2-6-0 live steamer and am considering a Hornby Schools class from the 30's.  

I had to look that one up...never heard of "Hornby Schools Class" before....those are gorgeous. I still love my Flyer & Lionel and all, but Hornby sure offered a great selection of prewar trains! 

Elevated corner were pretty much standard with early tin trains. They tended to have very little low speed capability, so the curves help them stay on the rails. Many early 3 rail sets and clockwork 2 rail had then. Probably a couple of reasons for the banking on the straight sections, 1: cost, they didn't have to make two types of ties. 2: If you transition from banked to flat, there will be some twist to the track near the curves.....................Derailment.

Steve

mtj54 posted:

Perhaps track clips for temporary floor layouts?

Did Flyer or Lionel or others ever use track clips?

Those actually appear to Lionel CO-1 track clips.

mark,

Interesting to me, also. It appears Steve is on the money. Internet research reveals it was definitely early Hornby track for clockwork and possibly a German company made track like that. No A.C. Gilbert that I could find.

Photo from a museum in U.K. somewhere(LOL)

There are MANY makers of Super-elevated track. British, German, US origin.  2, 3, and even Flyer 4 rail.  Steve has the reasoning.  Some of the locos with out governing will shoot off the loop at the first curve of flat track !  My feeling is that it was not really the cost of making 2 types of ties (punching and drawing dies are actually cheap) but rather simplified manufacturing (complexity reduction) on the line, and the existing tooling for the curves were for tight radii... some of these track curves are 10" radius!

Hornby, Basset Lowke and recently ACE have made Schools class locomotives.  They were 3 cylinder 4-4-0's for the British Southern Railway.  They were probably the most powerful 4-4-0's ever built and survived into the early 1960's.  Fitzroy Locomotive Works in Australia made a run of reproduction O gauge Hornby real tinplate Schools Class engines a few years ago.  I've actually seen some youtube videos of folks who either own or have built live steam Schools Class engines in O gauge from LBSC's drawings made during WWII.   Hornby made them in electric and clockwork as did Basset-Lowke. 

Rob English posted:

There are MANY makers of Super-elevated track. British, German, US origin.  2, 3, and even Flyer 4 rail.  Steve has the reasoning.  Some of the locos with out governing will shoot off the loop at the first curve of flat track !  My feeling is that it was not really the cost of making 2 types of ties (punching and drawing dies are actually cheap) but rather simplified manufacturing (complexity reduction) on the line, and the existing tooling for the curves were for tight radii... some of these track curves are 10" radius!

Let us in on the secret - tell us which mfg.'s other than Hornby...

Bing, Marklin, Joueff, HAG (Switzerland), Merkur

Flyer, Hafner, Bub, ( I believe a lot of Nuremburg  toy makers made it), Carrette among others.

Well, I suppose I will wait to check to those over time. There just aren't any photos of any, so while you say they made super-elevated track, I haven't seen it or a catalog mention, particularly in Am. Flyer's case, it will remain questionable. There is however, the photo above of a Hornby set with it in it. I have found written documentation on early Hornby clockwork track being made that way. I don't recall seeing any of it in an extensive photo presentation of the German Museum.

Have either of you seen documentation or photos in books or any in a collection?

Moonman posted:

Well, I suppose I will wait to check to those over time. There just aren't any photos of any, so while you say they made super-elevated track, I haven't seen it or a catalog mention, particularly in Am. Flyer's case, it will remain questionable. There is however, the photo above of a Hornby set with it in it. I have found written documentation on early Hornby clockwork track being made that way. I don't recall seeing any of it in an extensive photo presentation of the German Museum.

Have either of you seen documentation or photos in books or any in a collection?

Seriously?  There is no residual value (relatively speaking) so its not well documented in collectors books.  Two rail track is in every catalog from the Edmond Metzel time  period on up till the end of clock work production.  " The American Flyer Tracks are rolled from heavy steel, tin plated to prevent rusting, and are made so that the train will not jump the track or turn over at the curves". 1916 Catalog Copy, page 13. Every photo and drawing shows some evidence of superelevation. ...You can find google images of the Flyer 4 rail easily enough. I have both track types in set boxes.  I do not know what more evidence you need ...

Guys...In the hopes of educating others who might be like me and not have a clue about this stuff, I thought I would post the following. I've been so focussed on the Hornby track in front of me, I didn't even realize I had alot more tapered track than I first realized, although I knew it was out there, just never noticed. I opened a box of old track today that I had sitting here. In a box of about 15 pieces, I just now came up with four different types. I've numbered them in the photo's in the hopes they can be identified. Here goes...

Notes to think about as you go: Ives track pictured is stamped "Ives" in between the ties, this has smooth narrow ties.# 2 track pictured has three level "steps" for the rails to sit on. (notice this is a straights ection also). # 3 is also stepped down in three steps, but the tie as a whole is not as tall on either side as # 2. # 4 is also "stepped down" with level platforms for the tie to sit on, but the ties are narrower and the taper is not near as much as other pieces of track. Hope these pics help somewhere down the line...

Although all four of these have similarities, however small, they also have differences. These four examples just came from one small box I randomly picked, if I had the patience, I have alot more I could go through but hard enough for me to keep four different ones in line :-)

I have the book James Pekarek wrote titled "Old Windup Trains" and what a great book! (James is "WindUpGuy" here on the forum) Not a shameless plug, I bring it up because James had several track pictures of old two rail track in his book and I think a couple of them are different than what I have pictured here and also tapered. So there definately is alot of this track out there that is tapered. Funny, now that I'm paying closer attention, I see more and more where I never noticed it earlier. (Don't have the book at hand now so I cannot reference it directly) James is also writing another book on fixing wind up trains, I for one can't wait!

Thanks everyone, keep the thread going and make it informative as possible, we'll all learn alot more...

Flyer 4 rail

Greg

Northwoods Flyer

Greg...I would love to hear more about the 4 rail track from Flyer...this I've never heard of or seen before. Is that for "O" & "Wide" gauges? Thinking that must be pretty rare or maybe just something else I never ran into...

Did I mention that American Flyer also marketed their 3 rail track on a masonite base for 1 year,

 just like their 4 rail whistle track?

And it is also super elevated?

Hang in there Mark.  I will post some more information later.

Greg 

Northwoods Flyer

This information comes from an entry that I did in a thread that I host on another site.

4 Rail Whistle Track

In 1936 American Flyer marketed an odd looking 4 rail track that was used to activate the whistle in a number of its engines.  The reason that Flyer came up with this track is because of the patent that Lionel held for a whistle mounted in their tender. There was a law suit over patent infingement and Flyer lost. This track and the whistle it activated were Flyer's answer to finding a way to have a whistle on board their trains. The base of the track is  masonite. The notches in the base are there so that a track clip can be attached to the track. 

 

 

 

This is not the best photo, but it does show that the track is super-elevated, or banked.

 

 

 

 

 

In 1936 there were a number of sets that came with the track activated whistle that was housed in a tender or passenger car.  It was included in the Union Pacific Streamliner, the Zephyr, the Hiawatha, and the Hudson.  Each of the sets that included these engines came with what was called the new 40" Diameter High Speed Model Track.

Page 20 of the 1936 catalog describes the new track and shows pictures.  However the track that is shown only has 3 rails, and they are mounted to a roadbed which "makes the train practically noiseless".   I have seen examples of this 3 rail track on eBay. NationWideLines has reminded me that the 3 rail track with the masonite base was only available as a seperate sale item in 1936, as the catalog states that it is not included in sets. The 4 rail track is not pictured nor is its function mentioned. 

 

The numbers of the pieces of the New Road-Bed Model Track are:

 

No. 600 Curve Roadbed Track

No. 601 Straight Roadbed Track

No. 622 1/2 Curve Track

No. 621 1/2 Straight Track

 

In the 1937 catalog Flyer introduced a new Remote Control Whistle in a billboard on page 3 of the catalog.  The whistle is no longer housed in the tender or passenger car, but each set has a small notice in a red box that says "Add the Whiste Unit  page 3".  Set descriptions indicate that 40" diameter track is included.  It appears that Flyer tubular track has changed from 30" diameter to the high speed 40" diameter.

 

In the seperate sale section for track the No. 600 and No. 601 Roadbed Track are still available for "Whistle trains of 1936".

 

In the 1938 catalog (which is the first Gilbert American Flyer Catalog) the Roadbed Track is not listed.

Greg

Northwoods Flyer

Thank you all!

Pre-War train information still must be gained the old way - books and the sharing of personal knowledge. Although, I initially found it frustrating, I like it that way. The internet information only provides a tease. Sometimes a gem.

That was why I challenged blanket statements about who manufactured the elevated track.

I'll second that thank you...

Greg, that is quite fascinating. Most of the catalogs I have are from 26'-32' which might explain why I missed it but I'd be the 1st to admit I don't pay enough attention even when things are right in front of me. If I may say Greg, you are a true historian in every sense of the word. You are so thorough and I'm quite sure you've forgotten more than I ever knew or will know but every single time I see one of your posts whether it be the great photo's or the great information I learn something new. Thank you many times over for that...

American Flyer sure had alot going on in that type of track...

Just returning from a short holiday here are some remarks adding to this interesting thread:

It might have been mentioned here before, but there is a very interesting on-line track museum; have a look here:

https://www.railwaypages.com/the-museum

Further on the use of track-clips: every other year the Dutch Hornby club (DutchHRCA) displays a Hornby layout at a large model-railway event. You can see the layout here: http://www.dutchhrca.nl/eur-151.htm and here is one picture:

It takes about a day to build this layout and we use track-clips at every rail and use only some screws to align the whole layout. Connecting the track-clips is a dangerous job, so I use gloves when doing that. 

Regards

Fred

Here are some examples of clockwork 2 rail O gauge banked track...

First up, what I believe to be a later AF crossing.  It appears that AF used different styles of ties over the years, this is what I believe to be a common later style:

Here is a close-up of the banked ties on the crossing:

An early style of American Flyer switch... it's hard to see, but the ties are banked:

Hafner liked banked track as well, but used a non-banked stamped switch and crossing that just kind of "floated" when attached to the banked track:

As mentioned earlier, Ives also liked banked track, and can be found with a different variations in the ties:

Close-up of an Ives banked tie stamped with the Ives name:

Finally, a later Ives clockwork switch featuring banked ties:

Interestingly, although Marx windup track is probably the most common O gauge windup track in the states, it is not banked.  However, Marx windup motors are offset in the body of the locomotive to shift the weight to the inside when running clockwise.  That may or may not be by design; the electric motors are offset because of the gears on the wheels outside the motor's side plate, which is countered by the offset in the body, so the body ends up centered on the track.  The windup motors don't have the offset due to the gears, so they wind up a bit off center in the shell.  Marx instructions state "Train works best running clockwise".  More than one way to skin a cat...

Joy Line era Marx did have banked track.

Steve

Yep, I should have mentioned that.... 

WindupGuy posted:

Yep, I should have mentioned that.... 

Talking about YEP, JEP (Jouets de Paris) also used banked track for 3-rail electric trains as can be seen it this late (1957) JEP train-set:

Regards

Fred