Under The Hood: MPC Era "Baby Madison" vs. Polar Express/MLB Passenger Cars

Howdy!  First time posting here.   I just got a Wabash Fallen Flags complete set from my neighbor.  It is a Wabash 4-6-2 with "baby Madison" passenger cars.  Made in 1986 the passenger cars had never been out of the boxes.  I got them out and ran the set and noticed light coming out of the bottom of two cars and no light showing through the windows.   I took one apart and there is a cardboard insert similar to the one in your picture inside of it.   It had fallen down and was blocking the light from the bulb.  I have another car I am going to take apart that I suspect has the same issue.  Is it common for Lionel passenger cars to have cardboard inserts with bulbs that get hot?   I'm 100% sure these were put there by the factory!

It's a pain getting those roofs off, as with the MPC versions. It's very odd that some of these relatively recent Madison cars, like the PE (and apparently MLB) versions, have been made with the same roof attachment system as in the MPC days.

Many of the Baby Madison sets made in the last 8 years or so have updated roof attachment systems - very simple with two screws securing the roofs, with the screws accessible from under the car. Unscrew them, and the roof comes right off. It's a snap, and a huge improvement over the older system.

Why Lionel didn't use these newer body toolings with the PE and certain other recent Madison sets is a mystery.

Yep all the cardboard was factory and was in all of them.   I see now they were used to keep the roofs from lighting up.   I will keep them and either figure out another way to block the light or try to glue them in.   I guess they didn't consider the cardboard falling down on hot lights 31 years later!  

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Under The Hood: MPC Era "Baby Madison" vs. Polar Express/MLB Passenger Cars:

Took delivery of my MLB cars today.  What say we do a comparison with the equivalent MPC era "Baby Madison" cars?

 The PE cars are considerably different yet from the MLB cars. You should include one to outline the differences.

These cardboard inserts were in all of the baby Madison cars.   Now they light up great but light shows through the top of the cars.

ADCX Rob posted:

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Under The Hood: MPC Era "Baby Madison" vs. Polar Express/MLB Passenger Cars:

Took delivery of my MLB cars today.  What say we do a comparison with the equivalent MPC era "Baby Madison" cars?

 The PE cars are considerably different yet from the MLB cars. You should include one to outline the differences.

Don't have any updated PE cars in my fleet.  Anyone wanna take some happy snaps of theirs for comparison? 

Or someone COULD send me one. 

Mitch

carsntrains posted:

These cardboard inserts were in all of the baby Madison cars.   Now they light up great but light shows through the top of the cars.

You COULD line the roof with strips cut from the STANAG...  (evil grin)

Mitch

carsntrains posted:

These cardboard inserts were in all of the baby Madison cars.   Now they light up great but light shows through the top of the cars.

Just ONE bulb?   Hope that is just on the P.E. baggage car version you show there.

That is the baggage car of the Wabash Fallen Flags group from 1986.  And yes only that car had one bulb.  Think I will just glue the cardboard back into them.  Paper and incandescent bulbs just doesn't sound right to me .........

The 9500 series passenger cars do still look great, but, yes, are still a PITA to open, especially the baggage cars.

OGR did an article a couple years ago on how to improve the lighting characteristics in these cars, and how to facilitate opening the roofs. The toothpick method worked best for me, especially the baggage car.

I have a couple sets (Alton and Wabash) that I would love to deck out with LED lighting.

Carsntrains, Thanks for joining! Welcome.

If the plastic isn't melting the cardboard is highly unlikely to spontaneously burst into flames unless maybe you run trains in dry desert heat and sunlight. Scotch tape will hold them for many years.

I have cabooses I added my own cereal box blinders too over 40 years ago.

Still on bulb #1.    The tape has held that long too, and the quality of tape is better today.

In fact frosted tape is what many of my caboose widows are. It means my crew is warm and toasty with fogged windows from boiling water for coffee.

Oh, I forgot about me.....What's MLB?

I also forgot I hot glued a few of these roof blinds in place last year. When they do slip, the cars did just look like the shades are all drawn. Some held at halfway for years. I kinda liked that.  

And my grip is not that of Hendrix, I need a putty knife and or a butterknife etc. to open these. Its not easy, and I'd much rather hunt for screws or slap jb weld over bad bosses.

Putting them together is a snap though .

I hate the plunger type rollers on my 6 wheelers. They are the worst. Even my ultra-kludges work better. They get dirty FAST and.the plastic leaf springs weak. But I like the cars bright look as much as Daylight.

On my way to the kitchen I took a couple shots (with my walker I get a steady shot ) ....OK. I can only post one photo at a time, per post now. The attachment tools queue is sticking again.

Adriatic posted:

Oh, I forgot about me.....What's MLB?

I also forgot I hot glued a few of these roof blinds in place last year. When they do slip, the cars did just look like the shades are all drawn. Some held at halfway for years. I kinda liked that.  

And my grip is not that of Hendrix, I need a putty knife and or a butterknife etc. to open these. Its not easy, and I'd much rather hunt for screws or slap jb weld over bad bosses.

Putting them together is a snap though .

I hate the plunger type rollers on my 6 wheelers. They are the worst. Even my ultra-kludges work better. They get dirty FAST and.the plastic leaf springs weak. But I like the cars bright look as much as Daylight.

On my way to the kitchen I took a couple shots (with my walker I get a steady shot ) ....OK. I can only post one photo at a time, per post now. The attachment tools queue is sticking again.

Exactly.  Two of my cars had no light coming from the windows .. Only out of the hole that is under the bulb .. And the cardboard was laying directly on the bulb with no indication of it getting hot.   Glue it is !!!  I also have a caboose I need to dim

After much frustration I devised a method to greatly simplify the roof removal of tabbed window cars.  It can be found at this LINK.

Pete

Found another old thread on here with a great tip to remove the roofs from these cars.

Take 4 ice cream sticks and file one end to a flat square, tapered end (like a chisel). Insert the 4 sticks into the window tabs to disengage the tabs.

Press down on the 4 sticks on a hard flat surface to release the roof from the body of the car.

I had to replace a bulb in one of my PE coaches over Christmas. This technique worked well.

Bob

Actually Pete, now that you mentioned it I played on your idea, and used pointed shish kabob skewers. I'm just too in the habit of using the knives. Thanks for the reminder.

It's just not that hard!

Jon

    I don't have long fingers or big palms, I have no choice in the matter. If I reach from the bottom I can only reach the bottom of the window and the sill stops inward pressure. From the top I can press, but my hand prevents the roof from coming up. Not to mention my thumb tips are wider than the windows, so I can only do one side at a time.  So that's why I find it so difficult and using tools far easier.

By the way, excellent sound on the video! Not only could I actually hear it, I had to turn it down. I know your a pro but its still nice. Other pros fail often on being loud enough. I very seldomly have to turn the volume down from the full volume setting, and keep headphones nearby because of it.

KOOLjock1 posted:

 

It's just not that hard!

Jon

Baloney. 

It sure as heck ain't as easy as that guy makes it look.  I figure he's got a grip of iron or that demo car is gimmicked.

Pete

Actually I had my wife who has thin fingers squeeze the windows and the roof popped right off.  With the exception of the baggage car.  Which was a bit more fun.  

Man, sounds like your wife could beat me up.

Pete

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Took delivery of my MLB cars today.  What say we do a comparison with the equivalent MPC era "Baby Madison" cars?

 

At first glance, the two cars seem similar, except for the more modern-type highspeed trucks on the MLB car:

 

An underside view reveals the first differences: Both MLB trucks have lighting pickups, the newer MLB tooling has larger cutouts for six-wheel trucks and the MLB trucks have truck-mounted couplers (although provision for body mounted couplers do remain).

 

So!  Let's pop the tops. shall we?

 

Like their older siblings, the MLB cars use clips molded into the roof/window assembly to hold the roof in place:

 

(clipped window at right)

 

To remove the roof, press in the windows on each side:

 

Work the roof at each end, and gradually it will will pop off:

 

The wiring in the MLB car is a bit less Chic Sale than the MPC car.  Note also the metal rivets (in contrast to the MPC plastic jobbies):

 

Also note the different approaches to lightproofing the shell:

 

Although I suspect that cardboard insert is actually home-made, judging by the irregularity of the window cuts. It did make the roof removal a tad more difficult.  ^.^

 

Here's the MLB truck with the pickup popped off.  Since the trucks are riveted in place, I'll have to remove the axles, couplers and pickups and mask the truck frames before repainting...

 

Hope you found this useful! 

 

Mitch

 

 

Anyone know a good way to pop the roller pickup off the trucks on the polar express passenger cars?  I need to re-attach a pick-up wire to my kids puppet car so it will light up, but don't want to break it.  Will it come off easily like this one in picture above?

Thanks,

Andy

Actually "that guy" is me!  But you know what they say about guys with big hands...

They have to buy big gloves...

Jon

Train_Geek posted:

Here's the MLB truck with the pickup popped off.  Since the trucks are riveted in place, I'll have to remove the axles, couplers and pickups and mask the truck frames before repainting...

Anyone know a good way to pop the roller pickup off the trucks on the polar express passenger cars?  I need to re-attach a pick-up wire to my kids puppet car so it will light up, but don't want to break it.  Will it come off easily like this one in picture above?

I just use a small flat screwdriver and pry on one side between those two prongs.  The pickup pops right off! 

Mitch

Mitch,

You mentioned that you are going to paint the trucks.  How are you going to prep the surfaces before you paint and what paint are you going to use??  Thanks,

Train_Geek posted:

Anyone know a good way to pop the roller pickup off the trucks on the polar express passenger cars? I need to re-attach a pick-up wire to my kids puppet car so it will light up, but don't want to break it. Will it come off easily like this one in picture above?Thanks,

 Just like these - yes - gently pry the truck side out on one side(they will both flex when you do this) and the collector plate will come right out. Reverse the action to pop it back in.

As the PE puppet car has two complete collector assemblies with wipers & rollers wired in parallel, and the car is not currently lighting, you have at least two broken connections.

RickM46 posted:

Mitch,

You mentioned that you are going to paint the trucks.  How are you going to prep the surfaces before you paint and what paint are you going to use??  Thanks,

Actually, I'm going to mask the trucks and not paint 'em. 

Mitch

   Now the truck plates I don't need tools for! They are pretty strong, but mind the teats, I have had one or two snap on cars.

Keeping me guessing on MLB? I honestly don't know what it stands for.

Adriatic posted:

...Keeping me guessing on MLB? I honestly don't know what it stands for.

Thank you. I would have never guessed in a million years. I dont think I could name a modern player. I liked to play hockey, but never even followed that.

Adriatic posted:

Thank you. I would have never guessed in a million years. 

You wouldn't have to guess. Just try this thing called Google.  Type in "MLB," and Major League Baseball is right there, or type in "MLB Lionel," and it's right there, too.

I've always liked the Baby Madisons. The newer ones have diecast 6-wheel trucks. They're very nicely detailed, with, among other details, grab handles, and the very nice grate gates on the vestibules. The newer ones also have interiors, and with the addition of some passenger figures, these look especially nice. I've included a photo showing one of the screws (there's one at each end) that secure the roof on these newer cars, which makes it very easy to remove the roof. These particular Pennsy cars look great behind a traditional Pennsy Mikado (including the LionChief version), or a traditional GG1.

breezinup posted:

I've always liked the Baby Madisons. The newer ones have diecast 6-wheel trucks. They're very nicely detailed, with, among other details, grab handles, and the very nice grate gates on the vestibules. The newer ones also have interiors, and with the addition of some passenger figures, these look especially nice. I've included a photo showing one of the screws (there's one at each end) that secure the roof on these newer cars, which makes it very easy to remove the roof. These particular Pennsy cars look great behind a traditional Pennsy Mikado (including the LionChief version), or a traditional GG1.

Are those Baby Madisons  in the photo scale? All the new traditional size Baby Madisons I've seen have that insidious frosted window treatment rather than nicely done full interiors. I'm guessing Lionel sees traditional Baby Madisons as mere toys unworthy of interior detailing.

ogaugeguy posted:

breezinup posted:

"..........."

Are those Baby Madisons  in the photo scale? All the new traditional size Baby Madisons I've seen have that insidious frosted window treatment rather than nicely done full interiors. I'm guessing Lionel sees traditional Baby Madisons as mere toys unworthy of interior detailing.

No.  Same size as the traditional Polar Express passenger cars.

4-pack item number 6-25106.  Combo, two coaches, and observation car.

2-pack item number 6-25111.  Baggage and diner cars.

Thanks, Greg. Wish there was a way I to switch the car bodies of the Lionel Strasburg rtr set with those Pennsy bodies but alas, sides of Strasburg bodies are molded as part of the frame and I'm guessing those Pennsy bodies and frames are single molded pieces too. Double drat, so frustrating!  : (

ogaugeguy posted:

Are those Baby Madisons  in the photo scale? All the new traditional size Baby Madisons I've seen have that insidious frosted window treatment rather than nicely done full interiors. I'm guessing Lionel sees traditional Baby Madisons as mere toys unworthy of interior detailing.

As Greg said, they're the same basic cars as all the Baby Madisons made since the MPC days.

Not sure which Madisons you've seen, but other than the MLB and Polar Express cars (I think marketed to be low-cost mass-market starter sets -and apparently the Strasburgs, too), most of the more recent production sets of these cars, from these Pennsys to UP to SP Daylight to Chicago & Alton to Chessie and more, have had the interiors and clear windows, and the screw attached roofs.

For folks with smaller layouts, or even for those with larger ones, or with traditional equipment, these cars with some added passenger figures look great - virtually like smaller versions of scale heavyweights.

Breezin',

Nice photos, but that's not the screw location for removing the roofs on these cars.  The correct location is just inside the sill on each side in the center of the car.

What people did you use?  I've found way too big or way too little...

Jon

I can tell you why the "baby Madison" cars have frosted windows and not clear with details inside.   PE "baby" cars new are 60 bucks or so.    Right now there is a scale Polar Express heavyweight on EBAY with detailed interiors, clear windows, roof lighting, diaphragms and all.   The bidding is up to 355.00  with roughly 7 hours to go.   Reckon that explains it?? : )

OH and what a steal!   An observation car with the same details is on a BIN for 205.00!  And only 10.65 shipping!  : )