UP 4014

NOTHING is happening with it, and hasn't been for more than a year. All "efforts" being spent on 844.

What I thought. 

That's not good to hear, but I'm glad they are still making the effort. I'm sure the Big Boy has a learning curve, and they want to do it right.

Schnucks posted:

That's not good to hear, but I'm glad they are still making the effort.

Not sure what you mean by that but, they are making no "effort" on 4014.

I'm sure the Big Boy has a learning curve, and they want to do it right.

Any and all members on the UP with knowledge of the "big articulated" locomotives, are no longer with the steam dept..

That is not good.  The skill set for 3985 would come in handy for 4014.

Probably old news, but I read in a Railfan & Railroad magazine the other day that UP wants it running for the 2019 Golden Spike anniversary.

rtr12 posted:

Probably old news, but I read in a Railfan & Railroad magazine the other day that UP wants it running for the 2019 Golden Spike anniversary.

Probably not much chance of that happening now, as May 10, 2019 is only 3 years, and one month, away.

From what I have been reading here about the other things going on, that really doesn't sound like much time, does it? They also said the Challenger would not be started on until after the Big Boy is running again. That's a long way off. I am guessing the story was all PR from UP to the magazine folks?

The popcorn popper is about worn out because of "What's happening with (Insert UP Steam Locomotive Number Here)" threads.

So far the only thing being fired up is Jack Wheelihan, God love him.

A happy and blessed Easter to one and all.

4014 has about as much a chance as 614 does to run again. Aint gonna happen..

Schnucks posted:

I remember when the rumors where floating around about if UP was going to restore a 4000. Everyone then said it would never happen.

Well so far, it HASN'T happened, and as neat as it would be to see, I still don't think it's the best use of time and money for UP's  program, especially considering the lack of talent they have to do the work. The big Boy is just not very practical for UP's needs.  Even Steve Lee didn't think it was a good idea to get one running. 

Guess what, they moved it from CA to WY.

So they moved it.  NS moved 2156 from St Louis to Roanoke.  Doesn't mean it's going to run. 

In a recent video/report from the steam works, Ed made a comment that things don't always follow the projected time line.

Ed knows about as much about establishing a realistic timeline for steam restoration as my dog.  I don't believe he's met a single deadline YET. 

I enjoy everyone who is negative and says, "never". Helps make the impossible, possible.

I just say NEVER as long as Ed is in charge.  He doesn't have the know how, nobody who DOES have the know how will work with him even if he would park his ego and ASKS for help.  He has burnt too many bridges.  If Ed TRULY cared about the future of the UP steam program, he'd "dive on a grenade" and give himself up for the greater good.

Union Pacific will restore these steamers if and when it suits them for PR purposes. We shouldn't expect them to be priority projects with deadlines.

Ace posted:

Union Pacific will restore these steamers if and when it suits them for PR purposes. We shouldn't expect them to be priority projects with deadlines.

In spite of all the "deadlines" that the current manager as issued over the last 2 or 3 years?

Ace posted:

Union Pacific will restore these steamers if and when it suits them for PR purposes. We shouldn't expect them to be priority projects with deadlines.

We were told the whole REASON to restore 4014 to operation was for the 2019 celebration.  If they don't accomplish that, then why bother dragging the thing back to Cheyenne?   IN FACT, if they weren't ready to make 4014 a priority, why DID they bring it home so soon?  It could have sat in California for a couple more years, not taking up space in the shop.  By the time he brought 4014 back to Wyoming, Ed HAD to (OK, maybe he didn't have to, but **** well should) know what needed done to 844 and IF he had any grasp of his job at all, he would have known about how long it would take.  It's not like the steam shop has anything ELSE to do except concentrate on repairing 844 unlike the previous team which was maintaining an operable steamer, running trips, maintaining other equipment AND helping the other shop forces at Cheyenne all the while rebuilding whichever steamer was down at the time.  If you have been paying attention elsewhere, you can see what the FWRHS has being getting done over ONE winter.  While I'm thinking about it, one more gripe.  Why was ONE SINGLE PART removed from 3985 until they were ready to work on it?  I would agree with MAYBE doing a cursory inspection and a making a preliminary work list, but beyond that, why touch it?  They have clearly made that loco their third priority, so why did they tear into it?  Under the circumstances of having ZERO operable equipment, they SHOULD have been 100% laser focused on  whichever existing loco could be up and reasonably reliably running, and THEN turned their attention to 4014.  NOTHING that happens in that building makes a lick of sense. 

Priorities change, management changes, why sweat it? It's a wonder that these old beasts are still in the game at all. (uh - accidental double meaning there, could apply to the locomotives and/or managers).

Ace posted:

Priorities change, management changes, why sweat it? It's a wonder that these old beasts are still in the game at all. (uh - accidental double meaning there, could apply to the locomotives and/or managers).

Sure,,,,,,,,but the UP is wasting TONS of money on that "project", that hasn't had an operable steam locomotive in close to 3 years, with none in the forceable future either.

Schnucks posted:

 They want to fix the 4014. It's slow work that can't be done at a Jiffy Lube.

There are folks here that know the intricacies of steam locomotives, their operation, maintenance and rework extremely well.  They have put in sweat, muscle and knowledge to get the job done and that is why they are critical of the current situation in Cheyenne.

Rusty

Schnucks posted:

Clearly there are strong feelings about Ed and his shop. I don't understand the controversy or details about the UP steam program, Ed as the leader, or any of the men working or not working on the projects. I just know Ed is in charge. They want to fix the 4014. It's slow work that can't be done at a Jiffy Lube.

There is NO WORK being done on 4014,,,,,,,PERIOD!

Twice I have tried to post positive comments about UP and their workers, to only be blasted from what appears to be disgruntled former workers.

Let me explain the FACTS; I was a contract Fireman on the previous Steam Crew for about 17 years, and when you work with men who have dedicated their working career in various crafts such as Boilermaker, Welder, Machinist, Pipe-fitter, etc., in order to maintain and rebuild the two steam locomotives on the UP, it is EXTREMELY disheartening to witness one individual quickly destroy what had been built for over 50 years. Although not a "disgruntled former" employee, one can see why any and all the former employees are indeed "disgruntled", to state the least, over what the current manager has done. 

A modal railroad forum hardly seems the place to trash talk the abilities of people at UP and their business practices. It's time for popcorn.

Sorry but, this happens to be the Real Trains Forum, and thus REAL railroading subjects are discussed here.

Beings it is Easter, I'm going to quote Thumper. "If you can't say somethin' nice, don't say anything at all."

Sure!

Schnucks posted:

Clearly there are strong feelings about Ed and his shop. I don't understand the controversy or details about the UP steam program, Ed as the leader, or any of the men working or not working on the projects. I just know Ed is in charge. They want to fix the 4014. It's slow work that can't be done at a Jiffy Lube.

 

Yes, it is slow work, but not as slow as they are making it. As I aluded to above, the volunteer FWRHS  will have accomplished more this winter than Ed has gotten done in the last year, and their glacial progress on 844 means NOTHING is getting done to 4014.

 

 

Twice I have tried to post positive comments about UP and their workers, to only be blasted from what appears to be disgruntled former workers. A modal railroad forum hardly seems the place to trash talk the abilities of people at UP and their business practices. It's time for popcorn.

 

Why try to post something positive when there is nothing very positive to report?  What purpose does that serve? As a side note, while this is model railroad website, this forum is about REAL trains.  If you want to stay in fantasy land, I suggest you stick with the modeler's forums where reality is what YOU want it to be.

 

This has little to do with UP other than the lack of corporate oversight, and little to do with the workers. The experienced UP employees that were at the steam shop or were brought in have all been run off by Ed, so all the have are people with little experience. You can't fault those guys for that, in fact I feel for them because they are on sinking ship and may go down with captain through no real fault of their own.  Some of the commenters ARE disgruntled employees or contractors, and as far as I'm concerned, they have every right to be.   

 

 

Schnucks, it sounds like you may be new to this "party."

The status of the Union Pacific steam program has been discussed in detail for several years on trainorders.com. Almost all the former steam shop employees have expressed their disgust with what has happened to the program since Steve Lee retired and Ed Dickens took over. It's definitely not just a group of disgruntled employees spouting off. There is real and passionate concern that everything that Lee and Company built over the years will be totally destroyed by the current manager.

I was looking forward to making the trip to Cheyenne to see 4014 BLOW again, I hope they get it worked out.

turbine posted:

I was looking forward to making the trip to Cheyenne to see 4014 BLOW again, I hope they get it worked out.

What??????    When were you planning on going to Cheyenne to see ANY UP steam locomotive under steam?

turbine posted:

I was looking forward to making the trip to Cheyenne to see 4014 BLOW again, I hope they get it worked out.

I think we ALL want them to get it worked out.  I think we ALL want to see 844, 3985 and 4014 successfully operating  far into the future. .  If we didn't, we wouldn't spend so much time discussing it.  It just boils down to fact that that this story is VERY unlikely to have a happy ending until some real changes are made in the Cheyenne Steam Shop.  Until they get somebody far more skilled and realistic, and somebody that other highly skilled employees and outside contractors want to work for, the future looks grim.  At this point, it might be for the best if they don't get anything accomplished.  I am FAR more concerned about them getting 844 back on the rails and having an incident that reflects poorly on steam operations nationwide than not having any running equipment.   Also, for all the complainers of the critics, let me say that basically NONE of these threads are started by the critics.  We are only RESPONDING to questions and comments put out there by others.  If you don't like what we have to say about it, I don't know what to tell you.  Blowing smoke up people's skirts and telling them what the want to hear doesn't do ANYBODY any good.  I don't have a dog in this fight, but for the people like Jack that contributed a significant part of their life to make the UP steam program what it was, and have seen their friends and colleague's  efforts and reputations trashed by Ed Dickens, this is all VERY personal.

I hope something for the good changes in the steam shop soon. I have paid alot of attention on trainorders.com, here or wherever over the past 4 years and read what has happened and choose not to say much because it angers and saddens me like most of the ppl. That have to see this happen unfold. I have considered buying a plane ticket to go see the open house in May or whenever it usually is. But NOT to listen to Ed and his crew talk up a bunch of BS and excuses and see very little to no progress, but to see the 2 engines that made me a huge railfan in the first place. Plus the fact that I never have seen the shops or roundhouse inside either. Even though it'll be depressing to see the condition of the 844 and 3985 and the shops in general I might as well check it out because who knows what the UP could decide to do tomorrow.

Videos dated March, 2016 on progress being made (844 and 4014):

part 1 of 2:

So far, only watched part 1 but I'm impressed by how much work is involved in fixing  50+ year old machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsPl73r6i18

Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4n4fBcuz_A

What I find disgusting is the S.S. United States,

the current holder of the "Blue Riband" (yes, that is spelled correctly!), is just barely being kept from the scrap pile in Philadelphia, PA. A situation that could change at any moment despite all of the efforts to continuously save this great ship.

samparfitt posted:

So far, only watched part 1 but I'm impressed by how much work is involved in fixing  50+ year old machines.

Yeah, especially if you break things that weren't broken and "fix" things that worked just fine.

Dieselbob posted:

samparfitt posted:

So far, only watched part 1 but I'm impressed by how much work is involved in fixing  50+ year old machines.

Yeah, especially if you break things that weren't broken and "fix" things that worked just fine.

 

That is kind of a narrow-minded way of looking at things Bob. What if said piece that is working fine today just happens to break tomorrow only because it wasn't thoroughly inspected or refurbished? "Ah heck, it's working fine. Put 'er back on there, she'll make it another 300,000 miles!" KaBoom!

If you carry that attitude to the extreme, the locomotives will NEVER get out of the shop because there is ALWAYS something else you can do to it.  After 765 was very thoroughly overhauled in the early 2000's they still kept making repairs and upgrades every winter after that.  The trick is understanding the difference between what HAS to be done and what you would LIKE to do.  Much of the work undertaken in Cheyenne looks to be little more than "make work" projects, not addressing any REAL need, especially considering there wasn't a whole lot on 844 that wasn't worked on in the decade previously.  It would be different if they had another operable steamer, but they don't.  Right now the company is getting ZERO return on it's sizable investment while these guys fiddle as Rome burns.  If they take this approach to 4014, a loco that has been sitting for 50 years, it will take them another 50 to get it running.  When I wonder what the right way to maintain and operate a steam locomotive is I just ask myself,  "What are the FWRHS, the 4449 and the 261 guys doing?   It's really not more complicated than that.

Big Jim posted:

Dieselbob posted:

samparfitt posted:

So far, only watched part 1 but I'm impressed by how much work is involved in fixing  50+ year old machines.

Yeah, especially if you break things that weren't broken and "fix" things that worked just fine.

 

That is kind of a narrow-minded way of looking at things Bob. What if said piece that is working fine today just happens to break tomorrow only because it wasn't thoroughly inspected or refurbished? "Ah heck, it's working fine. Put 'er back on there, she'll make it another 300,000 miles!" KaBoom!

And you complain that I make stupid statements!?!

Once you let the "What if?" syndrome take over ANY project, they you are doomed. No aircraft will ever fly, no steam locomotive will ever be fired up, no race car will ever be driven, etc., etc., etc..

But then, that pretty much is what has been going on in Cheyenne, WY at the UP steam shop, for the last 3 years. Plus, was/is it REALLY necessary to have new Wind Wings (smoke lifters) made, or new walk-ways, or new jacketing (which was renewed within the last 5 years), or new cab floors? 

Guess you two have never heard of preventative preventive maintenance.
You two are like monkeys on the man's back! Every time this subject comes up. All the time harping about this and that. Now, let's see here, Jack was part of the group that damaged the boiler on 4449 by almost turning it over. Read about it in the current "Classic Trains" starting on page 80. Now, it seems that all was forgiven about that episode. The subject got tossed on here a few years back. Something about ruining someone's reputation.

Learn to forgive. Get off the man's back, because he doesn't need to be tried here in the biased court of public opinion. 

Big Jim posted:

Guess you two have never heard of preventative maintenance.

Absolutely! But then why did the current manager completely change the boiler water chemical treatment program, which had worked successfully for decades, and then had to rebuild the boiler & firebox after only two and a half years of his "swimming pool" chemicals.

You two are like monkeys on the man's back! Every time this subject comes up. All the time harping about this and that. Now, let's see here, Jack was part of the group that damaged the boiler on 4449 by almost turning it over.

So the two supervisors AND the Pilot Engineer being lost was the fault of the crew on 4449?????

Read about it in the current "Classic Trains" starting on page 80. Now, it seems that all was forgiven about that episode. The subject got tossed on here a few years back. Something about ruining someone's reputation.

Learn to forgive. Get off the man's back, because he doesn't need to be tried here in the biased court of public opinion. 

Look, I could write a book on preventive maintenance, but that doesn't mean you change the oil at 500 miles when it's good for 5000.  There's 70 years of real world use to tell you what to expect from a UP 800, it shouldn't be that hard to make a PRACTICAL schedule for maintenance.

No ACE, only a point to make about forgiveness.

Gee whiz MartyE, how timely a statement about checking lines.

Big Jim posted:

Guess you two have never heard of preventative maintenance.
You two are like monkeys on the man's back! Every time this subject comes up. All the time harping about this and that. Now, let's see here, Jack was part of the group that damaged the boiler on 4449 by almost turning it over. Read about it in the current "Classic Trains" starting on page 80. Now, it seems that all was forgiven about that episode. The subject got tossed on here a few years back. Something about ruining someone's reputation.

Learn to forgive. Get off the man's back, because he doesn't need to be tried here in the biased court of public opinion. 

If I remember, there was one error in tha t article.  I do not think the SP helper was changed to the SDP at Houston.  I rode that train Houston-Schulenburg.  (Yes, it was the only time an Amtrak train stopped there!)

I would think the job of a steam crew is to keep at least one steamer up and running at all times . Doing nut and bolt restorations from the tracks up is to time consuming and cost to much . Sooner or later the money will be gone I would think and the program stopped .

 So the two supervisors AND the Pilot Engineer being lost was the fault of the crew on 4449?????

We  get your point but you were still a crew member who   is  also responsible  for reading and understanding the train orders.

  Seems to me  5  crew members in the engine at once is a disaster waiting to happen and it did. I would like to  add , where & what was the tail end crew thinking?   The conductor is suppose to remind the head end of up- coming meets/  restrictions in train order territory.  Seems everyone was  asleep at the switch.

You seem to      know a lot about steam engines and diesels but have you ever  had a job in regular  engine service for a railway?  I'm assuming you had to write and pass the rules  exams just like anyone else with your special steam fireman  status ?

Preventive Maintenance is vital to minimize failures. That said, a Reliability-Centered Maintenance program is where they should be headed to increase cost effectiveness, reliability, up-time, and risk management.

Up-time is the only generative aspect. That is where the equipment is doing what is meant to do. Without online time there is no purpose for Preventive Maintenance.