If I remember correctly, we saw these delivered in 2013. They were a sell out for Weaver. I was wondering if we would ever see these again? They are brass and very heavy. Who got the tooling for these these? Do you think we'll see them again being specific to a single railroad?
Jan
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AtlasO I believe got the tooling for the BP20's so most likely you will never see them again.
Dave
Is a very nice model, requires a larger layout. Was originally sold as an A, unpowered B set. Some complained and Weaver did some in house upgrades to powered B's also. Both Tuscan and Green were offered. Those produced probably command at least the original selling price. Second run was offered, but not enough interest at that point.
I thought Weaver did a great job on the movable front pilot.
I went all-in and bought a powered A-B-A set. The TMCC antenna reception is sketchy, at best. Otherwise, gorgeous.
Since these are brass models there is no tooling in the sense Of a plastic model. Brass models are intended for limited production, high price runs. If there was enough interest someone might be able to make a new run of brass models based on the weaver designs, but that’s almost like making an entirely new product.
I believe that they are die cast bodies. Very heavy.
Jan
And how do you know that Jan? Do you own one to confirm that belief?
I thought I had read that in a review. Perhaps Mike will lt us know.
Jan
Bodies are brass
Bodies are brass.
Yep...the bodies are in fact brass. I was lucky enough a couple of years ago to find an A-B set with 4 motors at York! I had purchased a weathered A-B set the year before (first run with un-powered B) right here on the forum...so now I have four of these beautiful beasts!
After may years of yearning and being out bid on every try to acquire a set, I brought one home last year. They are indeed gorgeous and heavy. My set is a tuscan 5 stripe AB with 4 motors and TMCC. The only thing missing was the original instructions. They look great at the head of my recently acquired MTH Fleet of Modernism passenger cars or pulling the stainless Congressional cars. I am now looking for a set of heavyweights to represent their use on locals late in their careers on the Pennsy.
Rolland
If the truck sideframes are cast there may be tooling for those....but it says brass assembled bodies ....mean no real tooling. Plans and etching artwork would be all the 'tooling'.
As I (vaguely) recall, Weaver planned a second run but could not get enough commitments...has this changed today?
I was thinking that the bodies were die-cast brass (not pot metal) and not formed sheet brass, like 3rdRail's NYC Mercury locomotive and the Lionel Centipede, My confusion maybe because of a review in that other magazine where the author said it had a brass body and "heavy like a die cast steamer."
Jan
Originally posted by Rex Desilets:
As I (vaguely) recall, Weaver planned a second run but could not get enough commitments...has this changed today?
Uh, Yeah! Weaver is closed and gone. I too was going to reorder the set with the DLGE Single Stripe Freight version but alas, it didn't happen. Now I am kitbashing one with Williams RF16 Shells and PA-1 Drives just like the one below:
Don't forget at the time of this locos announcement, this $600.00 brass loco was expensive since MTH and Lionel diesels were at $400.00 fully loaded. Thats not so much for 2 railers but 3 railers it was a lot. Considering 3 railers commanded 75% of all O scale model purchases, the three railers lack of interest in reservations for a second run probably prompted Joe to cancel the production.
Anyone have some photos of the DGLE models? How about you Alan - are all 4 of yours the same color?
I perused rail photos for some and found quite a few for these beauties - several of yours too Mike!
What a handsome brute yet so elegant.
Here's a video that I found last night. Eric did a review on a 5-stripe unit provided by Weaver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLYeFGTDUCo
Jan
"I was thinking that the bodies were die-cast brass (not pot metal) and not formed sheet brass, like 3rdRail's NYC Mercury locomotive and the Lionel Centipede,"
First of all, our die-cast zinc models are not "pot metal", at least in the pejorative sense that I believe you meant it, and without this material, hard as it is to work with when I'm scratch bashing, we would have either plastic steamers (actually that would be fine, see earlier "scratch bashing" ref) or about 10% of the variety we have had offered in the last 20+ years.
Secondly, and I'm not sure I'm reading you right, but the 3rdR Mercury (boiler) and all the Centipede are indeed die-cast zinc. I own both models.
The 3rdR Mercury is a hybrid as I recall - the boiler/cab are die-cast zinc; under that the loco is brass. Sort of an upside-down-hybrid per the Lionel ATSF Mikado.
I provided Weaver the PRR prototype painting and lettering information for the BP20 project. My source was the official PRR diagrams published in the Pennsy Journal back in the 1970's. The planned second production run featuring the broad single stripe Tuscan red passenger scheme and the narrow single stripe DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) freight scheme never went into production - apparently due to due to lack of interest. With the decline in passenger traffic in 1953 the PRR re-geared 4 cab and 4 booster units for freight service. Down- rated to 1600 HP they were re-classed to BF16z. For prototype info and pictures see Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial - Vol 4 - Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units by Hohn Hahn.
I upgraded my five stripe DGLE A-B BP20's units with QSI Titan Magnum DCC decoders, and I fixed the swinging A unit pilot. Other than the die cast trucks, the unit is fabricated from sheet brass. As I recall there are lead weights in the fuel tanks of the 2 rail units. With 4 motors and lots of weight they easily pull 11 GGD 48 Broadway cars up a 2.2% grade. No traction tires required!.
c.sam posted:
That is my BP20. Sometimes I forget that once you post something on the web it stays there forever. Here is another, poorly lighted picture of the engines.
These engines are the ones that were reviewed in the magazine and I believe also the ones Eric reviewed. These were sitting on the top shelf of the Weaver booth at a York many years ago. When I asked about them they said they where their demonstrator units with lots of miles on them. Both units were powered, but the B did not have sound. Weaver was selling them for a good price, but I was going to pass on them until they through in the add-on sound card for the B.
Problem was they ran terribly. I sent them to Alex_M (one of our favorite forum members) to get fixed and to add the sound card. Alex said they were a mess inside, probably repaired multiple times with pinched wires and other poor work. Instead of trying to fix them, I had Alex gut both engines and add ERR. Now they run and sound great.
Some day I will try selling the original guts and sound card on the forum.
There's a current thread that asks "Are Lionel and MTH ever going to have some new locomotive model produced?". Although Weaver has already done these before, it has been quite a few years and there are scant few out there and even less that become available. These PRR BP20s would seem a relatively easy 'new' model for Lionel, MTH, or even Williams to produce by modifying their existing RF-16 tools and put out a set with state of the art sound, control (including BluTooth) and features.
Unfortunately the interest and hence market in these engines would be limited to PRR fans who have layouts with large diameter curves. That implies a small production run and higher price.
Perhaps 3rdRail could make a deal with Atlas for Weaver's design data package and masters and do a limited run. It is their specialty.
Jan
Jan posted:Unfortunately the interest and hence market in these engines would be limited to PRR fans who have layouts with large diameter curves. That implies a small production run and higher price.
Perhaps 3rdRail could make a deal with Atlas for Weaver's design data package and masters and do a limited run. It is their specialty.
Jan
Is Weaver couldn't generate enough interest for a second run, why would 3rd Rail?
C Sam, you really can't modify existing rf16 shark tooling to make the passenger shark unit because:
1) the passenger shark is too long
2) the nose alone is 6" longer than the freight shark unit
3) the cooling fan section is in the center and not at the end like a freight shark.
4) the side panels are different between the the units
5) there are end doors on both sides of the rear of the a units that are inward from the corners of the rear carbody.
6) with only one roadname for the passenger shark and multiple road names for the freight shark, why would someone butcher good tooling?
rex desilets posted:Jan posted:Unfortunately the interest and hence market in these engines would be limited to PRR fans who have layouts with large diameter curves. That implies a small production run and higher price.
Perhaps 3rdRail could make a deal with Atlas for Weaver's design data package and masters and do a limited run. It is their specialty.
Jan
Is Weaver couldn't generate enough interest for a second run, why would 3rd Rail?
3rd rail has dedicated customers.
Since they are brass tops, could they be built using existing motor and truck tooling? (What Lionel now calls a hybrid:-)
Did these originally come from Weaver with EOB? Many here seem to be changing that out to ERR.
I realize that you are correct of course, but your post above about kitbashing some Williams RF's motivated me! :-)
Just looking for information on BP-20s because I have a NJ Custom Brass set. Tuscan 5 stripe powered A and dummy B unit The Pitmanns inside are dated 1980 so I assume that is the date of manufacture. I cant find anything else out about this run of models. In my opinion they beat the Williams set on detail.
George
@George Hamlin posted:Just looking for information on BP-20s because I have a NJ Custom Brass set. Tuscan 5 stripe powered A and dummy B unit The Pitmanns inside are dated 1980 so I assume that is the date of manufacture. I cant find anything else out about this run of models. In my opinion they beat the Williams set on detail.
George
Are your custom brass BP20s are RF16s? I only ask because Weaver did the BP20s (the six axle beasts) in O scale while Williams did RF16s (4 axle units).
NJ Custom brass imported from Japan in the 70's and then moved production to Korea like many manufacturers in the 80's. Yours may still be of Japanese production being dated 1980. Their detail level was always very good. The drive quality varies substantially based on when it was produced. However, the Weaver units weren't known to be stellar runners. The prototype wasn't either for that matter, but Pennsy kept them in service until 1964 on the NY&LB.
Gotta believe 3rd Rail could meet the minimum order for these. Anything PRR is automatically popular anyway, but GGD has an upcoming run of the 1948 Broadway Limited to go with the BP20s. Even at $2k per pair I bet it would happen.
@BlueFeather posted:Gotta believe 3rd Rail could meet the minimum order for these. Anything PRR is automatically popular anyway, but GGD has an upcoming run of the 1948 Broadway Limited to go with the BP20s. Even at $2k per pair I bet it would happen.
It is worth inquiring about. I think $2k a pair would be a bit light though. I would suspect based on projected sales it would be closer $2.5k for a pair.
I know I would be interested in a set. It's the one diesel I do not have that worked on the NY&LB after retirement of K4s.
@George Hamlin posted:Just looking for information on BP-20s because I have a NJ Custom Brass set. Tuscan 5 stripe powered A and dummy B unit The Pitmanns inside are dated 1980 so I assume that is the date of manufacture. I cant find anything else out about this run of models. In my opinion they beat the Williams set on detail.
George
@GG1 4877 posted:Are your custom brass BP20s are RF16s? I only ask because Weaver did the BP20s (the six axle beasts) in O scale while Williams did RF16s (4 axle units).
No RF15/16 freight sharks were painted Tuscan 5-strip. If NJ Custom Brass did paint their RF15/16 that way, then it is a fantasy scheme. So not sure what the OP has.
The best way to tell the difference between a BP20 and a RF15/16 is the length. The BP20 is not an engine for small layouts.
Weaver BP-20 front, Lionel RF15a back
@CAPPilot posted:No RF15/16 freight sharks were painted Tuscan 5-strip. If NJ Custom Brass did paint their RF15/16 that way, then it is a fantasy scheme. So not sure what the OP has.
I'm fully aware of that. I don't believe Custom Brass did any factory painting. Everything I have seen from them as well as all the Custom Brass in my collection is unpainted.
Hi. Thanks all. To answer your comments. The loco is a Korean built RP 20 . I have an Overland RF16. I assume it has been pro painted with comprehensive lighting added, the lettering is transfer not print. Drive is using delrin chain, just as their GG1. Anyone any ideas on the number produced? 
Nice looking engines. I did misunderstand your 1st post. I thought the NJ Custom Brass was the painted one. Got mixed up on what engine was being discussed. Do you run DCC? There is plenty of room in the BP-20 for it.
No. I have no layout. The club has DCC but the main layout is DC and British, fortunately the slightly larger British scale means all the 1:48 stuff clears the loading gauge and with 8' radius it will happily cope with the largest Mallets. The outer circle takes 92 freight cars to make the caboose touch the loco.
George
Beautiful locomotives George. Production numbers on import brass from that era is not an easy answer. Likely in the hundreds of units, but that is just a semi-educated guess. I've seen one other set of Custom Brass BP20s in someone else's collection.
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