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Hi all, I am in the process of building my yard and was wondering what type of power do you guys recommend to powering the yard. My yard is going to consist of 6 Ross #4 switches to form a 6 track ladder style yard. I currently have 4 main lines that are powered by 2 Z4000s I plan to purchase another Z4000 down the road to give my main lines and grades more power. I was thinking maybe for my yard either use a Lionel 180 power brick since the price is much cheaper then buying another Z4000 right now. I am running DCS and Legacy. I only have one TIU that is maxed out using all 4 inputs/outputs for my 4 main lines. After I finish building the yard and getting it up and fully functional I am going to build a Roundhouse yard that will be in another section of the layout not near my 6 track ladder yard.

 

My questions are

 

1. should I just go with the power brick for my 6 track yard or would it be better to power my yard with a Z4000?

 

2. Would I need another TIU to feed DCS and Legacy to my yard or can I just tie in the brick power somehow with my existing TIU?

 

You're thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!!

 

-Matt

 

Link to my layout video -  http://youtu.be/WkR77FqpryA

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I don't see how you use the TIU to get the DCS signal to the yard if you're using all the channels for your mainlines, so it appears you need another TIU at least.  I personally don't see any problem with the PH180 powering a TIU channel, they're a perfect match for the capacity of one channel.  I'm presuming you plan on having the entire yard on one power district?  As for the Legacy, you are fine just keeping all the track commons connected, no extra stuff needed there.

 

Are you running the TIU for the mainline in passive mode?  The reason I ask is you mention another Z4000, and each TIU channel is only good for 10A, so I don't know where you connect any more power.  The Z4000 is already giving you the 10A per channel into the TIU.

I agree with John.  Any way you cut it, you're going to need another TIU and power source.  The PH180s are very good, relatively inexpensive power supplies for track in command-control layouts.  And you don't have to raise or lower any handles.  You may want to power the TIU itself separately.  And, I am assuming that you are powering the switch machines separately as well (i.e. not from track power).

 

Best,

 

George

I did plan on using a power brick (if I go the power brick route) to power the entire yard. I will start out with just one to power yard and if I need more bricks I can add more down the road. I plan on having several engines at the same time running at idle at times in the yard just for show.
 
I do power my TIU in passive mode using an external AC adapter. I guess I will have to purchase another TIU now even though I was planning on it down the road. I just wanted to try and keep the cost low for now in order to get this yard up and running.
 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

I don't see how you use the TIU to get the DCS signal to the yard if you're using all the channels for your mainlines, so it appears you need another TIU at least.  I personally don't see any problem with the PH180 powering a TIU channel, they're a perfect match for the capacity of one channel.  I'm presuming you plan on having the entire yard on one power district?  As for the Legacy, you are fine just keeping all the track commons connected, no extra stuff needed there.

 

Are you running the TIU for the mainline in passive mode?  The reason I ask is you mention another Z4000, and each TIU channel is only good for 10A, so I don't know where you connect any more power.  The Z4000 is already giving you the 10A per channel into the TIU.

George, I power my Switches using one of the accessory channels on one of my Z4000s.
 
 
Originally Posted by G3750:

I agree with John.  Any way you cut it, you're going to need another TIU and power source.  The PH180s are very good, relatively inexpensive power supplies for track in command-control layouts.  And you don't have to raise or lower any handles.  You may want to power the TIU itself separately.  And, I am assuming that you are powering the switch machines separately as well (i.e. not from track power).

 

Best,

 

George

Since the DCS signal is on both rails, I don't think you can have separate power districts and run them from a single DCS channel.

 

Just on a lark, you could try to connect a .1uf ceramic capacitors between the two power districts and see if you could propagate the DCS signal that way, I've never tried it.  It's a 3.27mhz signal, so a .1uf cap should look like less than an ohm at that frequency.  I may have to try that to see what happens.   Since you can have the outside rails common all around, you may just need the center rail to be coupled that way.

 

Well... blow me down!  It works in a limited test!

 

I just dropped a short length of track next to my DCS track and connected it with said .1uf cap between the rails and I can control a DCS locomotive on that track with an independent power supply.  I happen to be using the TIU in active mode, but the DCS signal is being used passively on that track.

 

I have no idea if it would work on a larger block of track, but you could try it before investing in another TIU, at least for the short run.

Originally Posted by Matthew:

Wow, you are a genius....where do I get that exact .1uf capacitor? Radio Shack?? What exactly does the capacitor do between them...does it filter out all power current and just pass through the DCS signal?

Well, don't be to hasty in declaring me a genius.   While it worked in a limited test, I have no idea if it'll work for a larger set of track or a different layout.

 

The .1uf cap can get obtained at Radio Shack or almost any electronics supply place, it's a very common value.  I'd suggest even trying a slightly larger value, say .47uf, that may even work better, I can't say.

 

The cap just allows the DCS signals through but blocks the 60hz power.

Great! Thanks! I will look into this first to see if it works for me when I build and power my yard. Thanks again!
 
 
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

.47uf would simply allow a lower impedance path between the tracks for the signal.  I have no idea if it would be significant, just a thought.  You can actually get a number of capacitor values very cheaply and experiment if you desire.  They should only be 10-20 cents, even at Radio Shack.

Hi John, I purchased my first Power Brick 180 yesterday and now I am reading here on the forums that some people are using it with a TMCC direct lockon. Is this something I need as well? Other then the molex connectors to make it easier to connect the wires without cutting the ends what is the reason why I would need a TMCC direct lockon?
 
Thanks!
 
 
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

.47uf would simply allow a lower impedance path between the tracks for the signal.  I have no idea if it would be significant, just a thought.  You can actually get a number of capacitor values very cheaply and experiment if you desire.  They should only be 10-20 cents, even at Radio Shack.

As you know i was not going to pass it through a TIU just yet since i have to purchase one down the road. What's the issue if i don't use a lockon and just try and grab the dcs signal using the capacitor. If the bricks have a good rest feature i don't understand why i would need a lockon?? Where can i find a molex that would fit that to make my own connections?? Thanks
Thanks John for the advice...greatly appreciated. I didn't know DCS would not work if using the lockon..that to me is a deal breaker as I must have a DCS signal for my yard as I will be storing MTH and Lionel engines. I am going to Radio Shack tomorrow on my lunch hour to see if they have a Molex connector that will fit because I really do not want to cut the ends.

I checked radio shack today and didn't find any Molex connectors so I will see if I can find another electronics store in the area. I also looked for the caps and I got confused when I was searching through the bins at Radio Shack because there were all diff types sizes and shapes of capacitors. I did buy barrel type caps (one assortment pack and another was just a single that is labeled 47uf but when I got home i realized that I needed a .47 I also could not find any .1ufs so I am hoping there is one in the assorted pack if I even have the right type..lol

Last edited by Matthew

Hi John, Thanks so much for the offer...that was very nice of you. I wound up ordering another TIU and I also ordered the Lionel molex connector which was only $12 for 3 diff types. I been busy working all weekend on the framing (extending the table) and even laid some of the track for the yard. I will post pictures when I get a little further done. Did you get a chance to see my layout video? Thanks again for all your help.

Hi John, I have received 6 duel pole 2 position toggle switches as well as the 18v chokes that I ordered off the net. Each toggle switch (as explained in the past) is going to be installed on each of my 6 yard tracks. I am going to start installing them this weekend. My question that since these toggle switches support duel pole so should I connect both hot and ground (outer rail) wires to it and then out to each track or should I just tie all of my outside rail track ground wires together and just use the switch for just the hot leads? Is it necessary to have the ability to shut off the grounds as well as the hot wire to track? Or is signal issues only related to hot leads. I am also going to make one of my 6 yard tracks a programming track for when ever I want to add an engine to DCS or Legacy.
 
My other question is that I purchased fancy LED lights from radio shack http://www.radioshack.com/prod...sp?productId=2062570 that support up to 16v so I am going to need a resistor since 18v-19v will be connected to these. I was in radio shack but was not sure what type of resistor I would need...any ideas or part# from the shack?
 
Thanks!
-Matt
 
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

I did check out the video, that will be one serious layout when completed!   Nice to have all that room to run in.

I'd only switch the hot side, no need to switch the commons.

 

As far as those LED's, they claim to be 12V, and I suspect since they don't mention AC that you may need a diode to use them with AC as well.

 

I like the idea of a DCS programming track, as I have had issues when the locomotive is at certain locations on the track.  OTOH, I've never had an issue configuring a TMCC/Legacy device, no matter where it was on the track.

John, thanks for the tip on just switching the hot side...it will save me some wire  
 
As for the LED's any idea what resistor I am looking for when I walk into radio shack? I asked the guy there but as expected he didn't know a thing I will also pick up some more of those diodes.
 
 
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

I'd only switch the hot side, no need to switch the commons.

 

As far as those LED's, they claim to be 12V, and I suspect since they don't mention AC that you may need a diode to use them with AC as well.

 

I like the idea of a DCS programming track, as I have had issues when the locomotive is at certain locations on the track.  OTOH, I've never had an issue configuring a TMCC/Legacy device, no matter where it was on the track.

Originally Posted by Matthew:

I did a little reading up...looks like I'm going to need a regulator not a resistor in order to bring the 18v down to 12v to light the LEDS. I found this one at radio shack.

 

http://www.radioshack.com/prod...sp?productId=2062600

The regulator with the related parts (rectifier,capacitors etc) would work,however all you really need is a simple diode and appropriate resistor. Anything over 300 ohm 1/4 watt should work. I would use a 470 ohm 1/4 watt in series with a diode (1n4001 or whatever) in proper polarity. If it is too bright use a higher value resistor.

 

Dale H

Last edited by Dale H
Dale, higher value as in more then 300 ohm or 1/4 watt??
 
Thanks!
 
 
Originally Posted by Dale H:
Originally Posted by Matthew:

I did a little reading up...looks like I'm going to need a regulator not a resistor in order to bring the 18v down to 12v to light the LEDS. I found this one at radio shack.

 

http://www.radioshack.com/prod...sp?productId=2062600

The regulator with the related parts (rectifier,capacitors etc) would work,however all you really need is a simple diode and appropriate resistor. Anything over 300 ohm 1/4 watt should work. I would use a 470 ohm 1/4 watt in series with a diode (1n4001 or whatever) in proper polarity. If it is too bright use a higher value resistor.

 

Dale H

Guys everything worked out to the way I wanted it to. Between the chokes and the ability to switch on or off each of the yard runs is really cool and fun to play with. 

 

Note: the red light is position right on each toggle switch which is for TMCC mode which turns on the chokes. Which ever yard track run has TMCC engines on it I just switch them to the right.  As for DCS I just switch any of the yard runs that have DCS engines to the left and the light color for left is orange. When switched to the left it bypasses the choke. The center position of each toggle switch is off. I have a total of 6 switches that control each of my 6 track yard runs and I also have an additional switch that is for the main track that enters my yard area so that way if I have either an DCS or TMCC engine sitting in that area of track I can switch to either TMCC mode or DCS.

 

I had 10 engines sitting idle in the yard which was really cool. The yard is run on one 180 brick. I want to at least add one or even 2 more bricks to feed my yard because one was just not enough which was expected with 10 engines on at once

I also took your advice and moved the second TIU right next to the yard which you can also see from the pictures that I built a nice wall to hang the new TIU, Power Brick and Terminal Block. My main control board is across from my newly added yard control board.

 

The chokes I got are really good. They are 18v and not a swift of temperature (it's a wonderful life ) They don't get hot at all so it was a great idea to find these 22uh 18v chokes.

Thanks John, and thanks to you and Dale and to anyone else who gave me such great advice on getting yard up and running to my likings. The funny part is that when you look at all that wiring I had to do in order to make DCS and Legacy work together you say to yourself why in the heck don't Lionel and DCS make there systems 100% compatible with each other Maybe the next gen. DCS will be fully compatible.

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