What was the verdict on Lionel's latest Legacy 0-8-0 locomotives?

 I have a number of 0-8-0's. I bought one with the intent of re lettering it and adding Kadee's. I usually run a new engine for a bit before doing any mods. . Right out of the box this engine was not what I expected. Accelerated way to fast. When I noticed on the Legacy remote the Flyer mode. I contacted Lionel. They danced around a problem they probably new about. That week on the Forum Jon Z got involved and explained what was going on.

 I have an early Odyssey version as well as a first version Legacy. To give this engine it's due. It runs close to the Odyssey version. Usable, but this was suppose to be the ultimate steam switcher and it carried the ultimate price. Super slow speed with no stalling thanks to the wire tether and less gap between the engine and tender. At the speed it travels they could have just left the IR tether in place. I don't have the B6 switcher. I have run one. The nicest engine I have ever run. I thought I was buying close to the same thing with one more axle. Not even close. If you aren't roadname specific and need a switcher. That's the one to buy.

 You nailed it David. Once the dust settles. Everyone moves on to the next greatest thing. I just can't afford to many $800.00 mistakes. No more pre ordering. I'll take my chances after the product arrives and reviewed.

Dave_C posted:

 That week on the Forum Jon Z got involved and explained what was going on.

His answer, " my bad". 

 I have an early Odyssey version as well as a first version Legacy. To give this engine it's due. It runs close to the Odyssey version. 

Unacceptable when my 12 year old TMCC version loco runs better.

 You nailed it David. Once the dust settles. Everyone moves on to the next greatest thing. I just can't afford to many $800.00 mistakes. No more pre ordering. I'll take my chances after the product arrives and reviewed.

I preordered my last loco with the ESE Hudson, after receiving it with the incorrect spoked drivers instead of the boxpoks as advertized. Given that one of the PT versions was supposed to have all scullins and had boxpoks on one axle it appears there was some sort of a possible mixup at the factory, causing a shortage of boxpoks?

Folks shelled out over $1400 for the new  ReadingT1 that has the MR 261 trailing truck, so much for all new tooling.

IT SEEMS THERES AN AWFUL LOT OF " Meh.... thats good enough" GOING ON OVER AT LIONEL.....for the prices, there shouldn't be. 

I can't recall what I paid for the Legacy USRA 0-8-0, but it wasn't over $600. It was from its original offering. Though I haven't run mine very much, I was very pleased with its operation.

TM Terry posted:

I can't recall what I paid for the Legacy USRA 0-8-0, but it wasn't over $600. It was from its original offering. Though I haven't run mine very much, I was very pleased with its operation.

Yes... I believe you're probably referring to the models produced in 2012.  They had a $699 MSRP, and are decent performers from what I recall.

The models I was inquring about in this thread were produced in 2016, with a $200 bump in MSRP to $899.  And most of the feedback has been negative.

I inquired because I've been on the fence about the "Steel City Switcher" set, but a little voice inside me says to stay away from trouble.  

Gotta agree with the sentiments expressed thus far... Even at discounted prices with dealer discount sales, we're still at premium price levels, and there should be no compromises in product quality for the top dollars paid.

David

I have the Legacy B6 switcher, it runs very well at all speeds and is a very decent puller.  Glad I didn't bite on the 0-8-0.

Given the HIGH price point AND the Legacy deficient electronics, I'd have to say this loco gets an F.

Maybe a D if you are a liberal grader and you have one that runs OK.

In terms of what you get for what you paid, it's a bummer.....IMHO.

To put things in perspective, remember when Lionel's first Legacy UP FEFs and Milwaukee Road 261, et al,.......were selling for almost the same price point? 

Don't worry fellas I suspect Lionel will departing the high end locomotive scene soon or at least offering limited items so you won't have to worry. I predict Lionel will go the way of LC starter sets and LC plus and will moving away from high end locomotives. Just my prediction. I believe the day of Lionel scale locomotives with Legacy has seen its peak. With in two or three years the signature section of the catalogs will be a few pages. 

Hey Marty:  To borrow a phrase from someone on this Forum - "Ain't gonna happen."  

MartyE posted:

Don't worry fellas I suspect Lionel will departing the high end locomotive scene soon or at least offering limited items so you won't have to worry. I predict Lionel will go the way of LC starter sets and LC plus and will moving away from high end locomotives. Just my prediction. I believe the day of Lionel scale locomotives with Legacy has seen its peak. With in two or three years the signature section of the catalogs will be a few pages. 

So...why do you predict that (sort of a rhetorical question). I'm thinking the costs got out of hand and are somewhat due to the lack of quality control. It has to cost the margin on the sale of an item to repair it under warranty. And also just that costs are going up in general in China and everywhere else pushing the cost of a detailed steam engine to beyond what we feel comfortable with in a hobby.

For me an interesting comparison is a train layout and collection, and Ham Radio. A reasonable modern Ham Radio station setup is maybe about $4.5K. That's about 2.5 high end engines. How many aspire to only having 2.5 engines? Another rhetorical question.

I sent mine back after contacting my LHS to make sure that he could return it to Lionel. I never even opened the box. I had read enough here to know that I would not be happy with it. Legacy Lite or whatever one wants to call it is not good enough.

Berkshire President posted:

Hey Marty:  To borrow a phrase from someone on this Forum - "Ain't gonna happen."  

Keep an eye on the future. The writing is already on the wall. 

BTW I wouldn't mind being 100% wrong on this but it's a gut feeling. 

MartyE posted:

Don't worry fellas I suspect Lionel will departing the high end locomotive scene soon or at least offering limited items so you won't have to worry. I predict Lionel will go the way of LC starter sets and LC plus and will moving away from high end locomotives. Just my prediction. I believe the day of Lionel scale locomotives with Legacy has seen its peak. With in two or three years the signature section of the catalogs will be a few pages. 

I don't know either way, but you just might be on track here? Sure seems like the LC and LC+ items have taken a fair share of real estate in the last couple of catalogs and each new catalog seems to have more than the last.

The only writing on the wall, IMHO, is that the private equity firm that owns Lionel may be getting ready to sell.....which is what private equity firms often do.

Check out Amazon.com for some feedback on the starter sets and the LionChief "stuff".  Less than impressive.

If BTO didn't work out, Lionel has no one to blame but themselves.

But, time will tell either way.  Our hobby has persisted for a long time and survived many changes at Big Orange.

I wonder just how many of Lionel's BTO have been order by the public?  When one goes to dealer sites and look at all the Lionel BTO that they have in stock you just figure, not many are purchasing these engines?  Or look on e bay, lots of them there for big bucks and they are not selling.

i guess we'll wait and see. Again I won't mind to be wrong.  

MartyE posted:

Don't worry fellas I suspect Lionel will departing the high end locomotive scene soon or at least offering limited items so you won't have to worry. I predict Lionel will go the way of LC starter sets and LC plus and will moving away from high end locomotives. Just my prediction. 

With all due respect to fans of Lionchief. As far as I'm concerned if that's the case. Lionel can keep their cheap trains with the Fisher-Price handheld. Mth here I come.

There have already been issues with gears and bushings on the Lionchief stuff due to the "entry level"build qualiry.

IMO given the fact that the majority of younger folks have zero interest in trains these days it would seem making a couple thousand $2000 big boys would be where the real money is

laz1957 posted:

I wonder just how many of Lionel's BTO have been order by the public?  When one goes to dealer sites and look at all the Lionel BTO that they have in stock you just figure, not many are purchasing these engines?  Or look on e bay, lots of them there for big bucks and they are not selling.

As far as the bigger dealers are concerned it's probably business as usual. If you been selling trains for 40 years you know what sells and what doesn't and how much stock your willing and able to gamble on.

Speaking of that Charles Ro has those "better preorder or you'll miss out" ESE Hudsons for $1099....over $100 less than the best preorder price .

It's always been bto. It's now a gimmick used to make the modeler feel they have to commit early or they don't get one.

The T1 is the only "hot" Loco from Lionel right now. It can still be purchased for a "fair"price relative to the bto price.

I tend to agree with Marty.  I suspect Lionel will focus its resources on the "toy" side of the hobby and reduce its scale footprint.  If Mr. Hitchcock's vision for the Lionel product line had an emphasis on scale products he would have never let Mike Reagan get away.

For lionel's sake I hope their future toy endeavors are more successful than Mega Tracks.

Speaking about Mega Tracks, it did not sell well at all. On Amazon or some other site for less than half the retail price. They have many thousands left in Concord to sell.

Maybe Lionel will chime in and correct anything I may have stated wrong. Why they spent all that money on developing some stupid plastic toy and marketing it is beyond belief. Stick with their roots and produce decent trains with some type of quality control.

I didn't know this about the 0-8-0. Glad to get that info. 

My thoughts on BTO is that I have waited almost two years for the M1a coal hauler set. When I did receive it, I had to immediately return it to fix the lights that didn't work out of the box. In that time my interests in the hobby changed and the amount of money tied up kept me from doing what I wanted to do. I will almost certainly not pre order anything in the future. I am finding some of the fun is hunting for what you want used or new for a reasonable price.  

Well I think this thread has reached its intended purpose. Clearly Rocky Mountaineer's only intention was to 'stir the pot' - Did the same thing with the wrong-color hatch for the GG1. Locomotives he never intended on purchasing, just trying to push his anti-BTO agenda and get people angry and upset. You Sir, are a well established internet troll. I applaud you.

I didn't get the 0-8-0, but I have had nothing but success with the BTO that Lionel has been doing. None of my engines have come in with problems. I did't buy this MegaTracks thing as I'm a train guy - who cares what they're doing with toys? As long as the trains are still coming, that's all I care about. The useless speculation does nothing to help the hobby or the people buying the products.

Frankly I think some of you having nothing better to do than to knit pick every single detail, whine consistently about price, and come on here and flame the manufacturers about problems before even contacting them.

When did you people stop enjoying trains?

I am not sure how you can say he was trolling - he asked a question about a product that maybe he was considering buying.  While I do agree that this topic has been beaten to death (the most effective way to express a view is with your wallet), this is a forum and people will exchange ideas.  I do think the lack of quality control on a lot of the new products that are imported - not just Lionel - is a legitimate issue, particularly given the prices.  I know that just based on my experience, which is not dispositive nor a super large sample, it sure seems like the stuff today is more problematic that what I bought in the 90s or early 2000s.  

I for one, was pleased that Rocky brought this topic up again. I had previously said that I would report the outcome of my request to return my 0-8-0. But, the original thread died and I didn't want to be accused again of whining. IMO, people have a right to know what is wrong with this product and what you can do about it.

TrainingDave posted:

Well I think this thread has reached its intended purpose. Clearly Rocky Mountaineer's only intention was to 'stir the pot' - Did the same thing with the wrong-color hatch for the GG1. Locomotives he never intended on purchasing, just trying to push his anti-BTO agenda and get people angry and upset. You Sir, are a well established internet troll. I applaud you.

I didn't get the 0-8-0, but I have had nothing but success with the BTO that Lionel has been doing. None of my engines have come in with problems. I did't buy this MegaTracks thing as I'm a train guy - who cares what they're doing with toys? As long as the trains are still coming, that's all I care about. The useless speculation does nothing to help the hobby or the people buying the products.

Frankly I think some of you having nothing better to do than to knit pick every single detail, whine consistently about price, and come on here and flame the manufacturers about problems before even contacting them.

When did you people stop enjoying trains?

Sometimes TrainingDave, the pot needs to be stirred! People that that care about the company and its well-being do not like the course that it has been taking lately! These people are intent on getting the best product possible for everyone. And, that includes people like you who are happy with anything that is shoved down your throat just because it has a "Brand" name attached to it!

Now, I'll give you, and anyone else, the chance to call me a "troll" too. Because I am the one that raised cain with the "Greenie-Stik-Em-A-Windows" on the Lionel 18" passenger cars and the backwards Simple/Compound sounds on the JLC N&W Y6b. That's right, call me a troll, but, it was all uncalled for. Lionel should have had someone in place that knew what they were doing! This same type of stuff has been going on for far too long and it is time for the consuming public to step up and say ENOUGH is ENOUGH!

What is really needed is for the media (OGR, CTT, Eric [the reviewer], etc.) to step up to the plate and challenge the establishments!

RickO posted:

laz1957 posted:

I wonder just how many of Lionel's BTO have been order by the public?  When one goes to dealer sites and look at all the Lionel BTO that they have in stock you just figure, not many are purchasing these engines?  Or look on e bay, lots of them there for big bucks and they are not selling.

As far as the bigger dealers are concerned it's probably business as usual. If you been selling trains for 40 years you know what sells and what doesn't and how much stock your willing and able to gamble on.

Speaking of that Charles Ro has those "better preorder or you'll miss out" ESE Hudsons for $1099....over $100 less than the best preorder price .

It's always been bto. It's now a gimmick used to make the modeler feel they have to commit early or they don't get one.

The T1 is the only "hot" Loco from Lionel right now. It can still be purchased for a "fair"price relative to the bto price.

T1 isnt that hot right now .Everyone has them in stock  but one store on this forum . Ro trainworld muffins patts Mario all have them. 

MartyE posted:

Don't worry fellas I suspect Lionel will departing the high end locomotive scene soon or at least offering limited items so you won't have to worry. I predict Lionel will go the way of LC starter sets and LC plus and will moving away from high end locomotives. Just my prediction. I believe the day of Lionel scale locomotives with Legacy has seen its peak. With in two or three years the signature section of the catalogs will be a few pages. 

Marty you have your ear to the ground .. I didn't enjoy what you posted .. hmm I am disappointed in hearing the direction Lionel wants to go.  

This has nothing to do with details. These are somewhat generic engines. I have the parts to modify mine into what I want. The thing is. I thought I was buying a Legacy engine. I'm into operations and had planned to use this engine for switching moves and as a pusher on heavy trains. It doesn't do switching moves well. Accelerates to fast for my tastes. With the Flyer driver board. It is incompatible with other engines. It was sold as a Legacy engine. It should do all the Legacy protocols.

jojofry posted:

Marty you have your ear to the ground .. I didn't enjoy what you posted .. hmm I am disappointed in hearing the direction Lionel wants to go.  

I don't have any "inside information".  I never do.  This is just a gut feeling.  I have a hard enough time getting JonZ to share or even hint at any possible upcoming Legacy enhancements for the Legacy meetings and rightfully so.  They don't want to show their hand and I accept that.  It never hurts to ask though.

I just look at the LC and LC+ lines as well as the Mega Tracks thing and realize there is more butter for the bread there than $1500 engines.  Again I hope I am 100% wrong but the LC lines are well accepted and sells well.  I believe we'll still have high end locomotives being produced but not at the levels we see today.  I suspect we could see almost half of what we see now in future catalogs.  I have to believe the effort to produce these often do not justify the returns.

Again all my own gut.  If I did know anything I would not even entertain to post it anywhere.

TrainingDave posted:

Well I think this thread has reached its intended purpose. Clearly Rocky Mountaineer's only intention was to 'stir the pot' - Did the same thing with the wrong-color hatch for the GG1. Locomotives he never intended on purchasing, just trying to push his anti-BTO agenda and get people angry and upset. You Sir, are a well established internet troll. I applaud you.

I didn't get the 0-8-0, but I have had nothing but success with the BTO that Lionel has been doing. None of my engines have come in with problems. I did't buy this MegaTracks thing as I'm a train guy - who cares what they're doing with toys? As long as the trains are still coming, that's all I care about. The useless speculation does nothing to help the hobby or the people buying the products.

Frankly I think some of you having nothing better to do than to knit pick every single detail, whine consistently about price, and come on here and flame the manufacturers about problems before even contacting them.

When did you people stop enjoying trains?

Wow!!! It's really quite eye-opening how threads here can veer off-topic so quickly just because one person can manage to open his mouth; insert not only both his feet, but the feet of the few other posters who "liked" his post; AND manage to be so wrong at the same time.

For one thing, you certainly don't know me.  And I don't appreciate you speaking on my behalf with all kinds of wrong assumptions -- especially when you don't have a clue what you're even talking about.

Just to set the record straight, I DID purchase that Amtrak Vision Line GG-1 during a recent dealer's end-of-year sale to go along with the Atlas-O Amtrak Zephyr cars that I own.  Sorry if you didn't like my thread inquiring about the red roof panels.    It was a thread started sincerely, because I was curious what the odds were that I'd get a model with silver or red rooftops. I really thought they all had red roof panels until I saw Eric's video with silver panels.  I'm happy to report that my model arrived with silver rooftop panels too -- the way I had hoped it would.

As for this thread... Once again you've proven yourself to be 100% WRONG.  It was started out of a sincere interest in purchasing Lionel's Steel City Switcher set during a forum sponsor's discount sale.  The set features Bethlehem Steel rolling stock and an 0-8-0 in Bethlehem Steel livery.  I have lots of Beth Steel items in my roster, and I've had my eye on that set since it was catalog'd -- but didn't like the inflated price.  So I've been waiting to grab one during a discount sale that might bring the set in near or below $1,000.  However, given the poor feedback on this locomotive -- combined with the fact that NOBODY here seems satisfied with their purchase, I've decided to pass on the set and buy the rolling stock from a dealer who would be interested in breaking up the set.  I have an extra B6 switcher that I might just re-decorate with Bethlehem Steel graphics, rather than waste $$$ on an 0-8-0 from this set only to be disappointed with its performance.

Given the tone of you post, TraingDave... you didn't deserve a response.  But I thought it was worth showing folks here on the forum how completely wrong your post was.  You have certainly ruined your own credibility here on the forum. But if you felt better for posting this trash, then more power to ya.  You, sir, are a perfect example of what is wrong with people using social media irresponsibly.  If this is your way of "enjoying trains", I'll take my way any day, any time.

David

P.S.  Oh BTW,  please let us know how the crow tastes.  And don't forget to share it with the other folks who "liked" your post.  They know who they are.  

PS
TrainingDave,
I forgot to mention the guttless aquarium cars Lionel just dumped on the public at inflated prices! No motor, no lights, incomplete interiors! A simple disclaimer that things are "subject to change" just doesn't cut it! It would have been nice to have seen all of the dealers send a message to Lionel and send the entire stock back to them to say we are not putting up with your crap...our customers deserve better than that!!!

I really really hope that the new 21" passenger cars don't all look like the one pictured in the new full page color ad from Lionel. That's all I have left of my pre-orders and after seeing that ad, I think I'm going to cancel them too.