What Would the Real Cost Be?

Rick, I don't think anyone has that kind of information. I say that having asked two people including the marketing manager at one of the importers.

And besides, it's really an impossible question. For instance, can you define "moving back here"?? Do ALL of the manufacturing processes have to take place here or just some? Can the electronics be sourced abroad? Can the die cast frames, pilots and fuel tanks be out-sourced but the plastic be molded here?

It's not that simple...

But an educated guess? Twice the current cost.

Very good question. Another question would be, if the cost difference is not that much, but quality control could be enhanced, would we pay for the difference?

I'm not sure you are going to get a straight answer from any of the manufacturers. The answer could lead you to the calculation of their current profit margin, which they seem to want to keep a deep dark secret.

Vic

I am by no means an expert but I don't think your question can be eloquently answered. The cost of an engine would be made up of the cost to build and maintain and license a facility capable of making the models including molding, painting and assembling. Next, the cost of making the tooling to be utilized would have to be added in along with materials including paints. Next operating expenses such as labor, utilities and taxes would have to be included. After adding up all of these you can divide by the number of units produced to get your cost. When Lionel was producing in the US and MTH was in Korea, it's prices were a factor of 2 to 3 higher than MTH. So it is probably a good guess that if the initial capital could be raised, a $400 product train made in Asis would, at a minimum, still cost about $1000 if made in the US.

I'm afraid that is a horribly complex question. Some of the factors have been identified, but the answer would definitely be influenced by the material - are we talking about brass or delrin for the shell? Diesel or steamer? 1,000 units or 5,000? There must be over 200 variables in this equation.

Manufacturing costs for 1 product would be much more expensive than setting up a factory to build more engines over time. So where you account for the cost is important as well. Building a locomotive with an established facility is going to cost a lot less than building the facility to produce the locomotive.

Best,

George

quote:

Originally posted by rrvics:
Very good question. Another question would be, if the cost difference is not that much, but quality control could be enhanced, would we pay for the difference?

I'm not sure you are going to get a straight answer from any of the manufacturers. The answer could lead you to the calculation of their current profit margin, which they seem to want to keep a deep dark secret.

Vic

That is a great question and I am sure the manufacturers would like to know what we would tolerate in cost to obtain problem free locomotives. So just to get a number out there, how many would pay a 25% premium to obtain a problem free product?

I believe the real question is how many of you in the forum who have jobs will loose their jobs and what do you have at stake. No one can feel the emptiness of being out of work until you experience it yourself.

Why do I say this. Because unless America starts bringing back manufacturing jobs from China, the economy is going to get worse...not better. Manufacturing is the cornerstone of our economy, that is the bottom line.

Fellow members of this forum might be willing to pay more for trains made in America if they experienced what it is like to be unemployed facing house payments, food, gas and other family obligations.

I got laid off my job 2 years ago and face hundreds of people lining up for a single job opening. And with the losers running on both sides of the political picture, the future looks dark. A nation of the poor run by the ultra-rich.

TEX
Steve

Cumon guys...why did the jobs leave??? That's the reason they are not coming back!!! As far as not working for 2 years, and being in this expensive hobby...well...NO COMMENT!!!

Mike Wolf said some time ago that moving production to the USA would mean a 30% increase in prices. Are we willing to pay that increase? I think not. Until we realize the cost involved in mfg. in the USA these types of threads will never go away.The fantasy of these types of jobs coming back to the USA is just that, a fantasy. If China becomes too expensive there are many other countries that the mfgs. will move to for the cheapest prices. This is the new world order, get used to it.

Dave

I don't have any real idea, of course, but I would probably go with Mike Wolf's 30% as a good starting point because I have heard that figure mentioned by other manufacturers in other scales.

I did a consulting study of another type of electronic/mechanical/consumer product two years ago - I can't say what or for who because it was a confidential study, but similar enough I think.

We came up with some rules about price change that, when I think of applying them to model trains, would estimate something like:
a) price point would be about 40% greater,
b) people would be willing to pay about 6% more for made in USA (In surveys eople SAY they would pay more but they don't),
c) quality would be a bit better but mostly due to factors such as use of more robots and a significantly shorter shipping time/distance/hazards, maybe enough to justify a customer loyalty of about 5% higher price
d) cycle time and the ability to create new products (a new model loco) and get them to market would be about 40% shorter.

Item d was a big item in the mind of my client: they were in a very fluid industry where following trends quickly was a key to competitiveness.

quote:

Originally posted by rdg_fan:
So it is probably a good guess that if the initial capital could be raised, a $400 product train made in Asis would, at a minimum, still cost about $1000 if made in the US.

The above estimate could even be low if the comparison between American made furniture and Chinese made furniture is any guide. Six years ago we went to a local "big box" furniture store to order living room furniture to outfit our new house. Upholstered wing back chairs were approx $400 ea; love seats about $650; and a standard sofa about $800-1000. Last year we were in the market for a few pieces more plus a sleigh bed for our guest room and decided to visit a nearby "high end" furniture store. The sales person stated that all the items in the store were U.S. made. I looked at an upholstered wing back chair very similar to the Chinese one we had purchased earlier: it was $2,000.00. Were the price doubled that of the Chinese made chair, I would have bought it, but 5X the price, no way. I had no idea the price differential was that great. I didn't even bother to check the price of a sleigh bed. So, the winner in the sleigh bed sweepstakes was a Chinese made THOMASVILLE model that cost me about $2,200.00.

So, I wonder what a Vision Line Challenger would cost if currently made in the U.S. $8-10K?

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by BILL HUDSON:

quote:

Originally posted by rdg_fan:
So it is probably a good guess that if the initial capital could be raised, a $400 product train made in Asis would, at a minimum, still cost about $1000 if made in the US.

The above estimate could even be low if the comparison between American made furniture and Chinese made furniture is any guide. Six years ago we went to a local "big box" furniture store to order living room furniture to outfit our new house. Upholstered wing back chairs were approx $400 ea; love seats about $650; and a standard sofa about $800-1000. Last year we were in the market for a few pieces more plus a sleigh bed for our guest room and decided to visit a nearby "high end" furniture store. The sales person stated that all the items in the store were U.S. made. I looked at an upholstered wing back chair very similar to the Chinese one we had purchased earlier: it was $2,000.00. Were the price doubled that of the Chinese made chair, I would have bought it, but 5X the price, no way. I had no idea the price differential was that great. I didn't even bother to check the price of a sleigh bed. So, the winner in the sleigh bed sweepstakes was a Chinese made THOMASVILLE model that cost me about $2,200.00.

So, I wonder what a Vision Line Challenger would cost if currently made in the U.S. $8-10K?

Part of your price experience is the efficiencies of big box vs. a smaller high end retailer. The big boxes have much lower profit margins which are compensated for by volume. A fancy *ss high end retailer caters to a crowd not so interested in price as product. This is not to say that the made in USA would cost the same, but this issue does factor into your experience.
Also, Weaver rolling stock is on a par with imported items on a price basis. However, the imports do have better detailing.
Alan
Bill

I think the main question is what would the american worker accept as his lowest pay? I was told thats what's running all these jobs overseas. I'm not trying to start a fight, but what is our labor really worth? We say we have to make enough to exit, but most americans out of work have become accostomed to more rather than less. Everyone wants a good life and good opportunities for our young people, but to me the thing destroying this country is the cost of health care. If it keeps going and we try to give free care to everyone, we will bankrupt this nation.

I think this question can be answered by a new company who makes only one car, a boxcar first, in multiple roadnames. Then the cost is going to have to be down from current prices. I for one quit buying "club" cars when they hit $50, and from those I have talked to, others did too.

Something to mull over,huh?


Rod

The question to me is: do we even have the skilled labor in this country willing (and thats important) to do the work? We'd all like to think that someone who is unemployed would jump at the chance to earn a decent wage if given the opportunity, but the reality is that with all the debt we've amassed and all the government safety nets in place, it's better for many to collect benefits and wait for the "right" opportunity. I don't begrudge anyone the chance to find meaningful employment, but it's beyond that now. I was out of work recently for almost a year, and I've been in and out of work for over 6 years. Most of it is just the industry I'm in and I plan accordingly, but during my downtime I interviewed for a lot of stuff that I didn't really want, but I figured I needed the work. I also used the time to study and build new skills which ultimately helped me land my current job. I played Mr. Mom during this period, so I had to manage my time as well. I don't think enough people ask the question: "what have I done to make myself more marketable recently". It's not easy, and you can still find yourself behind the 8 ball, but I just don't think there's enough people willing to do the repetitive, almost mind-numbing (at times), detailed assembly work for something like model trains. At least not for an industry-competitive wage. The other question is: do we even want these types of jobs anyway, but that's a topic for another day.

Every product has a supply/demand curve. That's an over-simplification in the extreme, but the bottom line is that companies know what they can charge for a product in a given market, and what they need to make to stay in business. Prices don't come out of a vacuum. Every time you raise a price, demand falls off a certain (in most cases predictable) amount. IMO it's not just about what WE are willing to pay - we're the exception because we're passionate about it. If prices rose by 30-50%, you'd loose SOME of us but a LOT of the people who just aren't that into it. That's not to say that people aren't willing to pay for quality - BMW and Mercedes sell a lot of cars, but their market slice is a lot smaller than the main-stream manufacturers. There's an old adage in business: high quality, low price, fast - pick two.

Another point is that labor is an input, just like steel, plastic, and other raw materials. You can't just arbitrarily decide what to pay people. The market will eat you alive. I'm sure Ford would love to be able to pay their line workers $100/hour, but if you think paying 30-50% more for a toy is problematic, imagine the impact on a $25,000 car. Demand dries up, and eventually the producer can't meet costs, the factory closes, and everyone is out of luck/work. Production shifts elsewhere and markets find equilibrium. Either we buy these products, or we go without. I argue that aside from the endless rhetoric, we are getting exactly what we are willing to pay for. If there were a market for 30-50% more expensive trains, we would see them already. If the current trend of less for more is truly unacceptable, the only real solution is to stop buying.

Last but not least, almost EVERY product/activity has a substitute. This is elementary for most, but model trains are no different. As I mentioned earlier, we are an important part of the market, but we are only a part. Plenty of people will simply move on towards something else if prices get too high. I'm not immune to this - a while back I was an avid collector of watches. In the five years that I was really into it, prices for what I collected rose 50%. I still really like mechanical watches, but I had to walk away. Watch companies are willing to cut guys like me loose because we are a PITA. We demand accuracy and perfection - we notice the slightest flaws. Sound familiar? :-) There are a lot of customers with plenty of money that walk into a boutique, pay retail price, and are never heard from again. Someone sat down, did that math, and realized that in was in their best interest to service those customers instead of me. I'm not bitter about it - it's like a poker game. It's fun until the stakes get too high for me; then I need to move to another table.

I think Lionel found out that answer with the possibility of the President boxcars being made in the USA.

If you care to look at our Swiss friend, Stefan Burki, who makes O gauge and sells O gauge in Switzerland, loco prices are in the order of 4-8000 dollars.
I suspect small run products made in most western countries would not be much less than that, including the US. You guys are dreaming if you think it will happen, it just won't. When China gets too expensive, it will be Vietnam or Burma or some such. It's the modern laws of nature.

I believe the data points you need are available. Pick the product you would most like to have, find its 1940 version, and compare price to average income.

The Hudson springs to mind. Seventy five bucks - a bargain for folks making three grand a year?

We are in China because labor is cheap there. We are moving to Manila because Chinese labor is not cheap enough. American labor is now aimed mostly at moving paper around. We are quite good at that.

Opinion.

I would guess more then 90% of people here are willing to pay,people already complain about Lionels pricing on chinese made products,would you be willing to pay 40% more for the same exact product? Add inflation for the dollar and i dont want to know what the true cost would be.

In summary i doubt we will see manufactures return to the states until at least 2050 if ever.

Guys,

It's the law of supply and demand! Economics 101! If demand goes up, price goes up, until it becomes too expensive and then if supply has costs like labor go up unreasonably, suppliers will cut corners by moving production where they can make a profit.

Plain and simple.

China and other countries will catch up but it will take years for their labor to catch up to our workplace standards.

Google Triangle Shirt Waist Factory fire. Prices were bare bones then! Hundreds of immigrants died needlessly in shoddy conditions. Fire escapes weren't in place and rescue ladders that Fire Fighters at the time were using weren't tall enough. People burned to death! Now, with OSHA rules and safety mechanisms in place no one has to worry.

Factories in China and other places have workers who sleep on the floor. In the areas that they work!

Simply put, who wants to compete with that?

That my friends, is the price of progress. We don't have to hear stories of worker unrest,discomfort or dismemberment or deaths (they happen).

What we should be looking out for though is shoddy materials used like lead based paint used in children's toys or items that come from overseas. Like trains!

Mike Maurice

quote:

There are a lot of customers with plenty of money that walk into a boutique, pay retail price, and are never heard from again. Someone sat down, did that math, and realized that in was in their best interest to service those customers instead of me. I'm not bitter about it - it's like a poker game. It's fun until the stakes get too high for me; then I need to move to another table.

Americans exist in a "throw away" mentality. If it breaks toss it and buy another one.
The "nitch" market waiting to be had in our hobby, is for someone to be able to repair these $1000 locos at a reasonable price, when they fall out of warranty.
A design of common replaceable electronics that will be readily available is what is needed.

"Planned obsolesence" is why they are only warrantied for two to three years.
A Hudson is a Hudson, the only "upgrades" being electronic and minor cosmetics.

It used to be, a company could make a good profit on replacement parts....think GM....especially parts made overseas.
Once a company starts down the path of "innovation" bringing to market a new improved version every year, repair and replacement takes a back seat. THEY want you to keep buying new ....not repairing the old. Quality control is an issue that need only be addressed during the warranty period...two to three years...then you are on your own. Many do not run their purchases often enough for the glitches to manifest during the warranty period.

I have a feeling that this kind of idea is not even on the radar screen for the train companies. Lionel just tried to make some boxcars in the US and failed to get to even be able to produce them at all, let alone at a competitive rate.

I have to image that in this economic downturn the train companies, being sellers of relatively expensive toys, are probably hurting. In other words, I don't think they have the luxury to even seriously consider taking on the expense and risk of moving production to the US; they are probably more concerned with surving.

I also suspect that you will start noticing more and more stories of restructuring and facility downsizings that will illustrate the difference between where the trains companies are now versus where they were 5 years ago.

Maybe in a couple years we will wish we had the variety, quality, and price we have right now.

Lots of great info and ideas here! As I said at the beginning of the thread, I know it will never happen. Having said that however, the "presidential boxcars" were a poor attempt at bringing manufacturing back here. With all due respect to the o-27/ toy crowd how many folks actually wanted those in the first place? I'm guessing the lack of preorders/ interest was what ultimately stopped the project. Maybe had American made scale steel reefers, or scale hoppers would have been a better marketing plan. Yes we are all proud of are heritage but IMO pictures of presidents belong other places than on rolling stock on my layout. The mention of Mike Wolf saying prices would go up 30% if accurate would place Lionels s-3 at $1200, arguably still a better buy than a VL hudson at least as far as "loco for the money"

Costs of manufacturing are not the only consideration when choosing whether an item is made in the USA or in China. I remember hearing the story about Lionel, under earlier ownership, just before closing their Michigan factory and moving everything to China, they were going to make a die-cast model of the U.P. Veranda type Gas Turbine locomotive. They intended to have, not only the dies made here, but actual production of the body done in this country. After contacting a number of US die makers, most of whom told Lionel that they were not able to make a die for a model of this size here in this country, they finally found one that was supposedly willing to take the challenge. However, he could not guarantee that every casting would be perfect, and that there would likely be an unacceptable amount of warpage in the final product.

Lionel them took the project to China and not only found a number of shops willing to take the challenge but they promised perfect quality of the finished product. The product was made in China and proved to be no problem at all.

I think that the way any production will be brought back to America will be in stages, not unlike the way it left our shores. A company will start small, find a local manufacturer that will take on a specific project and we might see one item be brought back here. If the entire project is successful, then a second item might be attempted. But you won't be able to simply, bring all production back here in one fell swoop.

Weaver has been as successful as any other company in our business, in doing that exact approach. For years, Weaver has used a local molding house to produce their standard, full scale, freight cars. They also had some of their diesels built in their own shops, although using many parts from the Orient. But there is enough USA cost and labor content to qualify for the "Made in U.S.A" markings. Naturally, their steam engines and their specialized diesels, all of which were hand built of brass, were made in the Orient, both in Korea and China, because we here in this country don't have the capability to do tedious, hand, craftsman type work. Recently Weaver had the opportunity to have two of their new plastic die molded products made right there in Pennsylvania, and Joe Hayter jumped at the chance. if these two projects are successful and the cars sell well, I'm sure that we will see other future items made over here as well.

Paul Fischer

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Maurice:
Guys,

It's the law of supply and demand! Economics 101! If demand goes up, price goes up, until it becomes too expensive and then if supply has costs like labor go up unreasonably, suppliers will cut corners by moving production where they can make a profit.

Plain and simple.

China and other countries will catch up but it will take years for their labor to catch up to our workplace standards.

Google Triangle Shirt Waist Factory fire. Prices were bare bones then! Hundreds of immigrants died needlessly in shoddy conditions. Fire escapes weren't in place and rescue ladders that Fire Fighters at the time were using weren't tall enough. People burned to death! Now, with OSHA rules and safety mechanisms in place no one has to worry.

Factories in China and other places have workers who sleep on the floor. In the areas that they work!

Simply put, who wants to compete with that?

That my friends, is the price of progress. We don't have to hear stories of worker unrest,discomfort or dismemberment or deaths (they happen).

What we should be looking out for though is shoddy materials used like lead based paint used in children's toys or items that come from overseas. Like trains!

Mike Maurice

You might want to check out Scott Mann's comments on plant closings over on the 3-Rail Scale Forum. Apparently these Chinese workers aren't doing that badly. Driving cars to work as opposed to bicycles ten years ago. No sweat shops or child labor. Strict labor laws and government intervention to protect worker rights. Check out his posts over there, very interesting comments.

quote:

Originally posted by fisch330:
Weaver has been as successful as any other company in our business, in doing that exact approach. For years, Weaver has used a local molding house to produce their standard, full scale, freight cars. They also had some of their diesels built in their own shops, although using many parts from the Orient. But there is enough USA cost and labor content to qualify for the "Made in U.S.A" markings.
Paul Fischer

I really think "component design" is an issue. Weaver is pretty standard in their product components. Hense they probably use the same supplier of parts from the orient that they have been using for years. No quality control issues when continuing to use the same reliable suppliers.

If the others would do a better job of "design" when it comes to the electronics and use the same suppliers, over time the "components" could be "standardised" and "interchangable" between engines. Then there would not be a "parts" issue and probably no "quality" issues. I've heard several times on this forum how "boards" are no longer available. Why? Are the "boards" proprietary to the suppliers?

Design a set of boards, programable,lights,sound... for ANY engine, smoke unit for any engine, motor for ANY engine. Once "standardised" parts could be brought together here in the USA and assembled and TESTED HERE. Quality control would not be an issue.

I've seen articles about how 3rd Rail and MTH inspect and test their product before they ship. They do it here in the good ole USA, that means that at least a few US workers are employed by them and not every job is overseas.

Rick,

When it comes to competing in a labor intensive industry, its not just a matter of us vs. the Chinese, its really more us versus the world. Labor intensive manufacturing is pulled to areas of the world where workers will work for cheaper wages.

After WWII, Japan was the low cost alternative, then in was South Korea, then China. As wages in China rise, many of these jobs will likely move to other Asian countries or Africa.

Jim

quote:

Factories in China and other places have workers who sleep on the floor.

Not at the factories that I have visited in China, about 2 dozen or so. The associates did stay at the factory but in dorms comparable to our college dorms.

Just taking a stab in the dark here, but we do have a Made in the USA company that a great many of you do not support with your $$$$ cause you don't do your homework or you drank the koolade of orange and Wolfie---------so, if you will read below, you will see what happens when you won't pay the price of Made in the USA!



Due to insufficient orders, we cannot meet the minimum order quantity that our builder has required for the PRR BP-20. Therefore the re-run of this project has been cancelled. Within the next two weeks, we will refund any deposit money to the Customers that have placed a deposit with Weaver Models for a PRR BP-20 Engine. Please accept our apology for any inconvenience this has caused.

Sincerely,
Weaver Models
315 Point Township Drive
Northumberland, PA 17857
Phone: 570-473-9434
Fax: 570-473-3293
Hours: Weekdays, 8:00 AM - 4:30 PM Eastern Time www.weavermodels.com

One of the factors that often gets overlooked in discussions of American vs. Asian manufacturing is the costs of compliance. In the U.S., manufacturing companies have to pay a small army of people to make sure they are in compliance with the mountains of laws and regulations concerning employment issues, insurance issues, tax issues, environmental issues, etc. And the people you pay to deal with these types of issues have to have some form of education or training to do this work (in other words, a kid with a high school diploma just won't cut it). These people do nothing to help the product get made, and their wages and salaries have to be built into the price of the product.

I work for a small American manufacturing company, and 4-5% of our work force does nothing but work to comply with all the hoops we have to jump through, and I am not even counting the company lawyer and what we have to pay him, or the outside accounting and payroll services we have to pay for. We pay this 4-5% of our work force benefits and give them raises and bonuses along with everyone else in the company, but we all know that the company would be better off, and our prices could be lowered, if these people were moved to more productive activities within the company.

The only way that manufacturing will return to the U.S. is if we, as a country, make this country friendly towards businesses again. Right now, the business atmosphere with regards to manufacturing in this country is hostile (unless you have friends in *very* high places or grease the right palms), and even toxic in some places.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy Hummell:

The only way that manufacturing will return to the U.S. is if we, as a country, make this country friendly towards businesses again. Right now, the business atmosphere with regards to manufacturing in this country is hostile

unless you are promising to make solar panels.

quote:

Originally posted by paperboys:
Just taking a stab in the dark here, but we do have a Made in the USA company that a great many of you do not support with your $$$$ cause you don't do your homework or you drank the koolade of orange and Wolfie---------so, if you will read below, you will see what happens when you won't pay the price of Made in the USA!

I love grandious statements like the above...

Weaver would have still needed a minimum amount of orders to do a rerun of the locomotives, no matter where it's made.

There's no guarantee that a "Made in USA" BP-20 would have garnered sufficient orders to do that rerun.

quote:

Due to insufficient orders, we cannot meet the minimum order quantity that our builder has required for the PRR BP-20. Therefore the re-run of this project has been cancelled. Within the next two weeks, we will refund any deposit money to the Customers that have placed a deposit with Weaver Models for a PRR BP-20 Engine. Please accept our apology for any inconvenience this has caused.

Sincerely,
Weaver Models
315 Point Township Drive
Northumberland, PA 17857
Phone: 570-473-9434
Fax: 570-473-3293
Hours: Weekdays, 8:00 AM - 4:30 PM Eastern Time www.weavermodels.com

And, Weaver's previous BP-20 was made overseas...

Rusty

quote:

Manufacturing is the cornerstone of our economy, that is the bottom line.

Manufacturing is FAR from the cornerstone of our economy....

Currently - only 9% of the jobs in the USA are manufacturing jobs. This country just isn't a manufacturing economy anymore. 300,000 manufacturing jobs have been created the last couple of years - the downside - 2,000,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost since 2007. Just heard it all today via news and an interview with David Wessel, economics editor of the Wall Street Journal.

And manufacturing - even though on the increase in the States - is doing more with less. We can make items at a 40% higher output today because of technology, people working harder, working smarter, etc. That is an improvement that has happened in the last 10 years.

Also - 22% of our exports go to Europe - and Europe is in trouble so that may put a slow down on manfuacturing in the U.S.

As Wessels said...

quote:

For all the romance about manufacturing, we are no longer a manufacturing economy when it comes to jobs.

I love grandious statements like the above...[/quote]


Rusty, I want to thank you for bringing me back to my senses. I had done pretty well for some time, but I just forgot that wonderful old saying: never try to teach a pig to sing-it wastes your time and annoys the pig. Thank you for the reminder, I sincerely appreciate it!

quote:

Originally posted by Andy Hummell:
One of the factors that often gets overlooked in discussions of American vs. Asian manufacturing is the costs of compliance. In the U.S., manufacturing companies have to pay a small army of people to make sure they are in compliance with the mountains of laws and regulations concerning employment issues, insurance issues, tax issues, environmental issues, etc.
Andy

Andy hit the nail on the head. A business partner and I investigated the possibilities of starting manufacture of toy products and even with favorable terms for the premises being offered, the amount of regulations defeated us in the end, we couldn't have raised enough startup capital to meet all the standards some of which are really stupid and quite unjustifiable.

Just one example. An ordinary household refrigerator if used for a business, though just as an employee benefit to keep their lunches in, must be inspected annually by the Fire Department and the Health Department for which, of course, you get charged! Fifty bucks here, fifty bucks there, before long you're talking real money.

However it was probably all for the best because not long afterward one of our major steel suppliers informed us they were being, in their words 'driven out of business by the cost of meeting the new regulations' and the extra cost of obtaining it from further away would have been the straw that broke the camels back. The profit margin was never all that much anyway.

That's just for maybe four men and a boy in a small shop, what it would be like for a major manufacturer one dreads to think. On the other hand, look at what the coal mining industry gets up to in West Virginia, what, if any, rules and regulations are hampering them? That's why they were imposed in an attempt to prevent turning America into a toxic dump.

We will HAVE to get back to manufacturing in this country but the transition to an entirely different approach, retooling everything from the supply side through manufacturing and distribution is a long and painful process.

quote:

Just one example. An ordinary household refrigerator if used for a business, though just as an employee benefit to keep their lunches in, must be inspected annually by the Fire Department and the Health Department for which, of course, you get charged! Fifty bucks here, fifty bucks there, before long you're talking real money.

That has nothing to do with manufacturing - that is local health laws being enacted - just like the county health inspections that make sure that your restaurants are complying with health codes.

As far as compliance rules and differences - ok - so am I thinking that lead paint is ok for children's toys? Everyone complains about excessive rules/regulations until a plane engine falls off...

There is a need for some oversite....and the truth is - China has been ignoring a lot of safety procedures and is paying the price for an environment that is becoming toxic [air and water pollution as an example]. And we already know that China's manufacturing costs are increasing. Some of that is due to compliance to standards that importing countries demand.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Podwojski:

quote:

Just one example. An ordinary household refrigerator if used for a business, though just as an employee benefit to keep their lunches in, must be inspected annually by the Fire Department and the Health Department for which, of course, you get charged! Fifty bucks here, fifty bucks there, before long you're talking real money.

That has nothing to do with manufacturing - .

Podwojski

No but it has much to do with why manufacturing is too costly here or wherever that jurisdiction is.

click

You ought to watch this documentary about the fashion industry in this country and how it declined (and will never come back) due to the very same circumstances that the model train industry experienced.

One statistic (I think I have the dates correct): In 1970, 90% of the garments worn in the US were made here. In 2000, 90% were made out of the country.

One only has to look to the US Automobile Industry for inspiration. Yes its gone through some rough patches, but look at it now. If they can build a competitive product here in the good old USA, then surely we can make toys that do the same. It all comes down to the consumer to DEMAND it. Enough of the whining from the manufacturers about rising China costs. Join me in a pledge to boycott CHINESE toy trains and if you really have money burning a hole in your pocket, go to Ebay and buy a good used American made product. 'Nuf Said.

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quote:

Originally posted by Tommys_Trains:
One only has to look to the US Automobile Industry for inspiration. Yes its gone through some rough patches, but look at it now. If they can build a competitive product here in the good old USA, then surely we can make toys that do the same. It all comes down to the consumer to DEMAND it. Enough of the whining from the manufacturers about rising China costs. Join me in a pledge to boycott CHINESE toy trains and if you really have money burning a hole in your pocket, go to Ebay and buy a good used American made product.

Yada, yada, yada... Here we go again.

GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc., each individually build a heckufa lot more cars than Lionel or MTH builds trains. And cars are more necessary than model trains.

And, it's very convienent to forget the only reason GM and Chrysler survived and retooled is because of conditions placed on a government bail-out.

Buying trains on the "secondary market" does NOTHING, repeat NOTHING to encourage the manufacturing of NEW products in the US. The original manufacturer, even if they still exist, doesn't see a penny of the Ebay sale.

All you're doing is paying the reseller, who may or may not make a profit on the item.

With increasing costs in China, there is a possibility of SOME manufacturing coming back to the US, but more likely that most overseas manufacturing will slowly hemmorage from China to another "low costs" country.

Rusty